The Force Awakens question

[JimB]

So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think it's really good?

Nah, it's a good flick. It's just not as exciting as Rogue One is, so it suffers for the comparison. Also people get tired of talking about what they like waaaaaaay before they get tired of bitching about what they hate, so praise will taper off a long time before the complaining will.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

I found it a fun ride. Yes, it suffered drastically from the "best hits compilation" syndrome, and the whole "let's get the band together again" after a decade of not much happening, which made the movie pretty predictable and more nostalgic than anything. I'll try not to have my nostalgia goggles on here, but it just felt this movie couldn't hold a candle to the first 3 (I mean the first 3 movies, not in chrono order). I dunno, it kinda took itself too seriously or something. Rey is serviceable as a main character, just enough that I wanted her to succeed in whatever she was trying to do. But I felt the story kinda banked on the Force being the coolest thing in the world as enough justification for her to want to be a Jedi.

So for me, overall pretty good, good enough to watch another one, but really REALLY holding out hope for them to carry this reboot on it's own volition, and leave the old Star Wars behind.

 

[twistedmic]

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

 

[Zontar]

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

 

[twistedmic]

[quote="twistedmic" post="18.949075.23952761
The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

I'll give you the tower crew, even though they were trying to keep him (and Poe) from escaping, but most of the people on the deck were Stormtroopers trying to shoot down his TIE. Even then, more stormtroopers were killed than tower crew.

 

[Natemans]

Of course you aren't the only one, and everyone who likes it will like it for different reasons. Plus it made a killing even before came out and was probably seen by everbody. And even if the general consensus had changed, I'm sure there are a billion Star Wars fans who love it either way.

I can see the appeal, but I found it to be terrible in almost every aspect, and it being called "a remake for a new audience" is basically accepting mediocrity as the norm to me.

This critique only covers about half my problems with it.

I kinda hate that video.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

It's not a war crime to shoot the guards trying to close the doors of the prison camp on you.

 

[Zontar]

It's not a war crime to shoot the guards trying to close the doors of the prison camp on you.

So a fraction of the tower and deck crew he shot wouldn't be covered similar to the stormtroopers, doesn't change the fact many of the people he did gun down are covered by that.

Not that it matters, the fact fact he tried to escape the way he did dispels any notion that his problem with the First Order was killing people. For god sake the guy was conditioned to be a soldier for them and still had no hesitation in gunning them down.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I mean, obviously? His problem with the First Order was the whole "unnecessary slaughter of innocent uninvolved people" thing. I thought the movie made that pretty clear.

And what's the war crime part, like, specifically?

EDIT: I mean, wouldn't that definition of war crime cover 99% of bombing raids?

 

[Neverhoodian]

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

Should the American pilots who sunk the Japanese aircraft carriers at Midway been tried for war crimes because they killed unarmed cooks and galley crew who were unable to defend themselves at the time? Of course you should take every opportunity to follow the Geneva Convention and refrain from killing unarmed opponents if possible, but only if it doesn't place yourself, your allies or civilians in danger. If Poe and Finn waited for the hangar crew to fully react to the situation and evacuate/defend themselves they may have never been able to escape, resulting in their capture, torture and/or death.

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

 

[Zontar]

Snip

It's pretty damn hypocritical of Fin on every level.

"I don't want to kill anyone!"

*Goes on a murder spree against the only people he knows, the equivalent of you killing your own friends and family, instead of just asking to be reassigned*

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

Compared to the Rebels, who tried to turn a legitimate mining outpost into a part of their crime network, and turned a moon who had a state of peaceful coexistence between its locals and the Empire into a warzone where the locals where used as cannon fodder, well it wasn't until the First Order blew up the capital of the state they're at war with that one could argue they're even on their level based off what we see on screen.

That's not to say I'm defending the First Order, the fact that the Galactic Empire fell apart after only 1 year without the Emperor is fucking stupid and Disney had literally no reason to not have the First Order just be the Galactic Empire (and it goes to outright stupid territory when you remember how much money the Original Trilogy merchandise still makes when compared to the Prequels era stuff), but at the end of the day given what we're shown on screen between the Rebellion and the Empire most people would naturally gravitate towards the Empire due to our bias for the status quo and stability, something the Rebellion explicitly opposes to the point of killing random people towards that goal.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

...Maybe pulp adventures aren't for you Zontar.

EDIT: I mean, c'mon, the first thing they do on screen we see that's evil is execute a captured prisoner, massacre indigenous life forms, massacre innocent civilians (you know, Luke's Aunt and Uncle), build a planet destroying super weapon specifically to rule through fear, and then use it to murder (according to the old EU) two billion people on the suspicion that some of them were aiding and abetting rebels.

EDITedit: Heck, to take it a step further, Tarkin knows Alderaan isn't a military target, believes Leia's lie about Dantooine, and blows Alderaan up anyway. As a demonstration of power. What, does the Death Star's mess hall have to serve kitten pot pie to be considered evil?

And rounding this back to Finn, there's a fair bit of distance between not wanting to kill anyone and pacifism. Finn was more than happy to go with Plan: Disappear into the Outer Rim until the First Order went and murdered a Solar System. That he previously shot at some First Order guys that were shooting at him at the time isn't hypocrisy. He reacted with a conditioned soldier's instincts when he had a situation where he wasn't supposed to shoot civilians.

He didn't want to kill, but he had to, so he did.

 

[Kyrian007]

I liked The Force Awakens. I was prepared to hate it. I really disliked Disney's decision to can the entire EU (although I realize it's probably for the best) and was prepared to really hate what they were replacing it with. But, the "rehash" of a story that it was... did exactly what it was supposed to. Re-establish the brand. Tell a familiar story in the style of the original trilogy. Basically, get away from what we ended up with in the prequels. So the force is back to being a mystical force instead of the symptom of blood contamination. Saber duels are proper grand stage broadsword fights instead of flashy but stupid wire-fu flipouts. The good guys are scrappy underdogs as opposed to a boring entrenched theo/bureaucracy. And the bad guys are good old fashioned space nazis and not... a phantom menace?

Ok it kind of falls apart there, I liked how they handled the villains in the prequels. But the point stands. Episode 7 is a return to a style of movie that episode 4 was. And storylines mirroring points from ep 4 meta/reinforced that. Plus added that little bit of mysticism that Maz alluded to. About events repeating themselves. Added in with the idea that the force has a will of its own... it posed some interesting questions. So, maybe it was a "rehash." But I think it was a rehash for a reason. And there's no reason it can't set up something pretty epic.

 

[Neverhoodian]

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

Compared to the Rebels, who tried to turn a legitimate mining outpost into a part of their crime network, and turned a moon who had a state of peaceful coexistence between its locals and the Empire into a warzone where the locals where used as cannon fodder, well it wasn't until the First Order blew up the capital of the state they're at war with that one could argue they're even on their level based off what we see on screen.

That's not to say I'm defending the First Order, the fact that the Galactic Empire fell apart after only 1 year without the Emperor is fucking stupid and Disney had literally no reason to not have the First Order just be the Galactic Empire (and it goes to outright stupid territory when you remember how much money the Original Trilogy merchandise still makes when compared to the Prequels era stuff), but at the end of the day given what we're shown on screen between the Rebellion and the Empire most people would naturally gravitate towards the Empire due to our bias for the status quo and stability, something the Rebellion explicitly opposes to the point of killing random people towards that goal.

See, this is the kind of rhetoric that concerns me; people trying to apply modern day War on Terror "security at all cost" sensibilities onto a faction clearly inspired by Nazi Germany (the Empire's soldiers are called "Stormtroopers," for Christ's sake!) and the British Empire circa the American Revolution (why do you think all the Imperial officers speak with a British accent?). The Rebels/Resistance are supposed to be the freedom-loving underdogs, not the Star Wars equivalent of ISIS.

Look, I get it. The Empire definitely has an allure, with their ranks of orderly, gleaming armored soldiers, aggressive-looking ships and awesome, if impractical, walkers (not to mention having a monster face [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7HF4JG1pOg] who deliberately put forth policies that resulted in the wholescale imprisonment, conscription, torture, slavery and slaughter of trillions of innocent sentient beings. That is nothing less than institutionalized terror, and that's a concept I find far more frightening than a small band of armed irregulars.

 

[Zontar]

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

Compared to the Rebels, who tried to turn a legitimate mining outpost into a part of their crime network, and turned a moon who had a state of peaceful coexistence between its locals and the Empire into a warzone where the locals where used as cannon fodder, well it wasn't until the First Order blew up the capital of the state they're at war with that one could argue they're even on their level based off what we see on screen.

That's not to say I'm defending the First Order, the fact that the Galactic Empire fell apart after only 1 year without the Emperor is fucking stupid and Disney had literally no reason to not have the First Order just be the Galactic Empire (and it goes to outright stupid territory when you remember how much money the Original Trilogy merchandise still makes when compared to the Prequels era stuff), but at the end of the day given what we're shown on screen between the Rebellion and the Empire most people would naturally gravitate towards the Empire due to our bias for the status quo and stability, something the Rebellion explicitly opposes to the point of killing random people towards that goal.

See, this is the kind of rhetoric that concerns me; people trying to apply modern day War on Terror "security at all cost" sensibilities onto a faction clearly inspired by Nazi Germany (the Empire's soldiers are called "Stormtroopers," for Christ's sake!) and the British Empire circa the American Revolution (why do you think all the Imperial officers speak with a British accent?). The Rebels/Resistance are supposed to be the freedom-loving underdogs, not the Star Wars equivalent of ISIS.

Look, I get it. The Empire definitely has an allure, with their ranks of orderly, gleaming armored soldiers, aggressive-looking ships and awesome, if impractical, walkers (not to mention having a monster face [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7HF4JG1pOg] who deliberately put forth policies that resulted in the wholescale imprisonment, conscription, torture, slavery and slaughter of trillions of innocent sentient beings. That is nothing less than institutionalized terror, and that's a concept I find far more frightening than a small band of armed irregulars.

I think you're reading way too much into this. People have liked the Empire since it all began, and there's a certain alluring nature to the bad guys in fiction when done right, and this was made even more so when the different books have fleshed the Empire Rebellion/Republic out to the point where the only real difference in ideology was if you wanted an efficient dictatorship prone to infighting or a brutally inefficient democracy prone to infighting, one which explicitly had slavery while the other looked the other way when it happened.

Also, how do you know the Rebels aren't the equivalent to ISIS? Their leaders are monarchs who all follow an ancient cult of warrior monks and despite being a galaxy spanning rebellion all they can muster up is a dozen ships and three wings of fighters. There are planets with only moderate populations that likely have a larger fleet then that, a rebellion across a million worlds couldn't muster up for then that? They aren't even the ISIS of the Star Wars galaxy.

 

[Trunkage]

I didn't like Force Awakens not because it riffed A New Hope. I disliked it because I realise, now that I'm an adult, that the Star Wars saga is not really a good set of movies. Its not terrible, I just expect more out of movies nowadays.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I didn't much like it. Which isn't to say it's a bad movie. Just a lot like the original Star Wars and therefore pointless. I keep hearing the argument that it's supposed to introduce a new generation to the franchise. To them I say: look the other movies up.

And Rey is a Mary Sue. What can I tell you.

 

[twistedmic]

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

So vaporizing a planet that might have harbored rebels, slaughtering a tribe/clan of Jawas just for coming into contact with a droid that they believed held the Death Star Plans, murdering civilians, occupying a planet and enforcing their rule as well as torturing prisoners don't qualify as evil or bad?

 

[Zontar]

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

So vaporizing a planet that might have harbored rebels, slaughtering a tribe/clan of Jawas just for coming into contact with a droid that they believed held the Death Star Plans, murdering civilians, occupying a planet and enforcing their rule as well as torturing prisoners don't qualify as evil or bad?

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

 

[xaszatm]

I think you're reading way too much into this. People have liked the Empire since it all began, and there's a certain alluring nature to the bad guys in fiction when done right, and this was made even more so when the different books have fleshed the Empire Rebellion/Republic out to the point where the only real difference in ideology was if you wanted an efficient dictatorship prone to infighting or a brutally inefficient democracy prone to infighting, one which explicitly had slavery while the other looked the other way when it happened.

Uh...what? Look, I like the Empire but you are giving way too much credit to them. There are only two genuinely competent people in the Empire of the old cannon: Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon. Of the two, only Gilad Pellaeon can claim have made the Imperial Remnant a force leaning towards good. The two competent members of Empire were competent because both were obsessed with efficiency over power. Both knew how idiotic the Death Star was as a concept and how it was a tremendous waste of resources, especially in a intergalatic empire where mobility, not power, was key for control. Both used the native species own culture to either dismantle them in battle or convince them to join the empire over Palpatine's occupations and ramming his philosophies down people's throats. Both rewarded competence even if it technically disobeyed orders rather than reward mewling obedience.

As for the actual Empire, they did all those incompetent things because they were planned for by the Emperor himself. Why are you surprised by the fact that the Empire was dismantled within a year in the new canon? Is it not logical that a court of people obsessed with power and infighting would attempt to fight among each other if the leader is removed? The Emperor prized cronies how obeyed his every whim even if it ran counter to actual rulership. He purposely kept on muddying the chains of command and encouraged promotion by backstabbing. He was obsessed with spectacular displays of power when he ruled too large of an area for that power to be used effectively. Hell, half the reason why the Rebels are able to bring down the Empire so quickly is because their mobility made the Empire's power useless. When you get down to it, the Empire was doomed from the start. Even if his overly cruel policies as Emperor didn't result in mass rebellion and discontent, his inefficient spending of resource, enforcing incompetents to high command, and encouraging infighting would have brought him down. Hell, the Dark Elves from Warhammer Fantasy are more competent this this guy.

Look, the Empire are an "evil is cool" faction but competent they are not. And yeah, everyone else is making a point to but since that isn't going to convince you anyways.