The Force Awakens question

[TheMysteriousGX]

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

Yeahh, he did great with that tuskan raider...

Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

Yeah, and the TIE:FOs chasing Rey were specifically not killing them. Turns out that when the bad guys are actually trying to kill people, they almost get the country boy who's taking his first ride in a military starfighter.

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

"Nobody's ever done that, except this situation which was similar". Yeah, that convinced me. Never mind it was a darksider apprentice, and not a particularly good darksider apprentice. Add in the fact that darksiders are almost universally bad at the mind-based stuff and you get a Rey who know knows something is possible and manages to use it on the perfect test target after initially failing.

Besides which, I'd guess that flying a fighter craft in space with an astrometric droid helping you out is easier than flying the derelict Millenium Falcon in an atmosphere, hugging the ground and weaving through the wrecks of Star Destroyers.

Yeah, there weren't any experienced starfighter pilots running into terrain above Yavin at all. Never mind an active battle where the bad guys were actually trying to kill them, when that wasn't the case on Jakku.

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent. And after spending so long searching for the map to Luke's location, why would the Resistance just let her go alone? It's just that everybody is obsessed with Rey the moment they meet her, because she's a Mary Sue character.

That's how General Leia rolls, man. I mean, their entire "take out Starkiller base" plan was based on a First Order defector with a stupid idea partnering with a crazy smuggler who can do the impossible.

Maybe Pulp Space Opera just isn't for you?

@thebothofyou: Don't mistake over 30 years of advances in CGI and choreography for advances in character skill. Just like how the prequel tech wasn't better than original trilogy tech, just shinier.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Not to mention Red leader screwing up the shot was listed as a technical issue due to the computers being faulty, not because of a failing on their part.

a) This is not mentioned in the movies, but in what is now Legends material and thus not canon.
b) The small size of the target and the impossibility of hitting it is actually a plot point brought up in the pre-attack briefing by the veteran pilots at hand. To this Luke replies that he shot Womp rats from his air speeder back home.

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

You mean like Rey, who was a scavenger on a planet full of cutthroat scavengers and the tyrannical merchants they sold their scrap to?

Also, you're just going to write off Rey's piloting like that? She flew a VERY awkwardly designed ship that was stated to NEED a co-pilot single handily, through a ton of tight twists and turns while flying at extremely high speeds and being shot at. That's a bit more than "not bumping into too many things". And that rough take off? Oh yeah, that TOTALLY makes up for flying like an Ace with minimal experience.

It might be worth remembering that the Millenium Falcon is actually a fast and nimble ship, despite its' size. Both Han and Lando pulled off some crazy flying with it (inside the Death Star 2, through an asteroid field and making a hard stop just beside the hull of a Star Destroyer so it could clamp onto it). Rey also mentions that she has flight experience, so in this regard she's no different from Luke. Both are pilots via informed ability.

Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

You mean there's a difference between being chased by two fighters trying to force you to land and being in a battle with the full TIE fighter compliment of the Death Star? Gee Willikers!

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

It is almost as if using Force powers is something that you can learn, say by watching someone else do it and then trying it yourself. Since the Force is essentially Space Magic, it makes perfect sense that Rey somehow understands what Kylo is doing on an instinctual level and then manages to do it herself. The other way of doing this is to complain about how Luke can suddenly pull things with the force in Episode V, despite not having had any formal training and never having even seen someone attempt to do it before. Yet he knows he can somehow pull the lightsaber to his hands when he's trapped in the ice cave.

As for Kylo Ren himself, it is patently obvious when you watch the movie that he's not as strong in the force as he wants to seem. He's especially bad at using the force when he becomes emotionally unbalanced, such as when Rey fights back during his mind probe and later during their duel. He's Snoke's apprentice and he serves as an inversion of Darth Vader; where Vader was a powerful force user in his own right, Ren is still learning and obviously lacks the power he wants to project. Not to mention how that scene serves to reinforce the fact that Kylo Ren is, at that point, still struggling with his temptation to go back to the light whereas Rey is determined to fight him and the First Order for all she is worth. That he fails to mind probe her highlights the difference in their resolve at that point.

 

[maninahat]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

Mon Mothma? Admiral Ackbar?

And Princess Leia, occasionally, in the first movie (sorry Carrie Fisher, you tried).

As to the inevitable Mary Sue question: Both Luke Skywalker and Rey exhibit standard lead character super powers: i.e. It's a given that the untrained, backwater kid will outshoot stormtroopers or beat tiefighter pilots in dogfights, despite that being implausible when you think about it for any length of time. People had been joking about the Empire over this fact for decades.

The important thing for a movie to do is convince you that the hero is facing a daunting threat or obstacle; one that makes them the underdog in any given situation. They only become Mary Sues when it is apparent they have full command over any situation. These movies have scenes were the hero does something implausibly heroic, like pulling off million to one shots, or win fencing duels (Luke managed to beat Vader after only his second ever lightsaber duel with a real person), but the point is that these moments come after watching various tense action scenes where they are about to die. These "Mary Sues" spend most of the movie running for their lives, hiding, crying, humiliated and generally being on the back foot. That Rey is quick on the uptake over Jedi magic or space ships doesn't do anything to change this.

 

[C14N]

So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think its really good? I mean I do acknowledge the similarities it utilizes in it (though I wouldn't call it a remake nor rehash).

Also I really like the score and find it underrated.

No, I also really like The Force Awakens and didn't really care about the internet turning on it a week after it came out. Personally, I didn't grow up with Star Wars as a kid. I'm fairly sure I saw A New Hope and The Empire Strikes back at some points either on TV or VHS but I didn't understand them and didn't have any particular attachment. I saw all 3 of the prequels, but as a kid they pretty much flew completely over my head and I didn't understand much of the plot. Before TFA, I got the box set on Bluray, as much because of the cultural pressure of being a nerd and wanting to understand Star Wars references as anything else. I watched them, thought the originals were fairly good, and thought the prequels were pretty poor. I watched the Plinkett reviews too and enjoyed those.

So all that is to say that when I saw TFA, I knew Star Wars and thought it was a decent series, but I wasn't a "fan" and it wasn't tied up in a lot of nostalgia.

With all that said, TFA was easily my favourite film in the franchise. I think it's better than the originals in almost every way. I guess there was a large element of originality when the original films came about, but I've grown up in a world where Star Wars and the many other things it has influenced have always been a part of my life, so that never really mattered to me. In terms of the things that did like the direction, the writing, the acting, the cinematography and the effects, I thought it was a pretty superb film. It was accessible to newcomers while having some nice callbacks to the originals.

Like I said, I like the originals, but I don't think they're as sacred and fantastic as many others do. I enjoy them, but a lot of it is with a "this was of its time" kind of lens. I'm not just talking about special effects or anything either. I think the writing and acting are both a little cheesy and would look like a B-movie if released today. It's good, but it's aged.

I don't have TFA in my top 10 movies of all time or anything, and I'm not saying it was perfect, but I thought it was a very enjoyable, stellar action film; and it's made me look forward to Episode 8.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for Kylo Ren himself, it is patently obvious when you watch the movie that he's not as strong in the force as he wants to seem. He's especially bad at using the force when he becomes emotionally unbalanced, such as when Rey fights back during his mind probe and later during their duel. He's Snoke's apprentice and he serves as an inversion of Darth Vader; where Vader was a powerful force user in his own right, Ren is still learning and obviously lacks the power he wants to project. Not to mention how that scene serves to reinforce the fact that Kylo Ren is, at that point, still struggling with his temptation to go back to the light whereas Rey is determined to fight him and the First Order for all she is worth. That he fails to mind probe her highlights the difference in their resolve at that point.

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

Anyway, as to Rey and Luke, and why she is a Mary Sue and he is not...yeah, there's the usual answer which might apply.

 

[twistedmic]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be

Small point: Kylo Ren and Snoke are not Sith. The Sith were a specific sect of dark side force users, but they were not the only dark side force users (the EU books had the Nightsisters of Dathomir).
And considering we've really only seen the first act, so to speak, of the new trilogy we just might see more characterization of Kylo Ren (and Phasma for that matter) in the second and third parts. Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

Ah, ok, I must have missed that bit.

Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

True, he worked with other people and didn't force choke everyone. In Star Wars, IIRC, the only person he force chokes he lets go when he's told to...and that guy was right to call him out on the Force not being that useful.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Sorry, I can't really contribute more to this discussion. Been trying to AVOID getting too heated on these boards lately. Hasn't been good to me. Just have ONE thing to add before dropping out.

You mean like Rey, who was a scavenger on a planet full of cutthroat scavengers and the tyrannical merchants they sold their scrap to?

At what point did I complain about Rey being able to fight? At what point did ANYONE outside of a chan board complain about that?!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

Ah, ok, I must have missed that bit.

Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

True, he worked with other people and didn't force choke everyone. In Star Wars, IIRC, the only person he force chokes he lets go when he's told to...and that guy was right to call him out on the Force not being that useful.

He DID choke one other person actually. Not FORCE choked granted.


With his bare hand, and lifting that sucker half a foot off the the ground. Then add in his Death Star run, yeah. Vader spent most of Ep4 showing he had the biggest nuts in the room.

 

[Thaluikhain]

He DID choke one other person actually. Not FORCE choked granted.


With his bare hand, and lifting that sucker half a foot off the the ground. Then add in his Death Star run, yeah. Vader spent most of Ep4 showing he had the biggest nuts in the room.

I subtract points for that one, because Vader wanted the guy to answer some questions, and killing the guy didn't help.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

At what point did I complain about Rey being able to fight? At what point did ANYONE outside of a chan board complain about that?!

My general point was that Rey has obviously led a rough life up until the start of TFA and it is not unreasonable for her to have picked up on a lot of skills (fighting and flying included) that show up over the course of the movie.

 

[happyninja42]

At what point did I complain about Rey being able to fight? At what point did ANYONE outside of a chan board complain about that?!

Do you mean "anyone" in regards to this specific thread? Or just in general? Because people have complained about EVERYTHING related to Rey at some point or other since the movie came out. In fact, plenty of people on this very forum have complained about that very aspect of her character in the past.

My general point was that Rey has obviously led a rough life up until the start of TFA and it is not unreasonable for her to have picked up on a lot of skills (fighting and flying included) that show up over the course of the movie.

I will agree with you on the fighting bit, but I do have something of an issue of thinking she knows how to fly starships, simply based on what we see in the movie. To be fair though, there wasn't any reason baby Anakin could fly a starfighter either, but he did, and I think most people chalked it up to him channeling the Force. I just chalked it up to that. But I do feel the movie did a terrible job, trying to establish if she had previous flight skill or not, based on what we see.

One thing it seems everyone forgets about the Force, something that was established in New Hope, that can easily explain these inconsistencies, is the conversation between Luke and Ben on the Falcon.

"Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force, flowing through him!"
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

This is basically saying that people who are in tune with the Force, can pull off crazy things instinctively, without any training. Because the Force basically took control of them at that time. They needed to fly a ship, but didn't have the know-how to do it. They channel the Force, and are now able to pull it off reflexively for a time. It worked for Baby Anakin, no reason it can't work with Rey.

 

[Drathnoxis]

There's something that bothers me that I never see get brought up: Poe and Finn shoulda been blowed up when they were tethered to that wall! They were stuck there forever! Their idiocy and rash action should have been rewarded with explosive laser fiery death, but no. Apparently Stormtroopers can't even hit a stationary target the size of a barn!

Also, what the heck is with people defending Rey by going "Oh, but Anakin did that too so it's okay!" as if that means anything. Literally everybody on the planet hated Anakin for being an annoying, precocious little mary sue!

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

There's something that bothers me that I never see get brought up: Poe and Finn shoulda been blowed up when they were tethered to that wall! They were stuck there forever! Their idiocy and rash action should have been rewarded with explosive laser fiery death, but no. Apparently Stormtroopers can't even hit a stationary target the size of a barn!

Not when the heros are involved. I mean, Luke and Leia spent ages on that ledge with no cover. Damned plot armor.

Also, what the heck is with people defending Rey by going "Oh, but Anakin did that too so it's okay!" as if that means anything. Literally everybody on the planet hated Anakin for being an annoying, precocious little mary sue!

I only bring Anakin up when folks start in the the "never before in Star Wars has there been such a Mary Sue as Rey" style argument. Because some folks think Rey's more of a Mary Sue than the child who could win at the sport where collective wisdom says human's can't even compete.

 

[Jadak]

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

The bit about them being "the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant" is off. That doesn't describe those people at all, the resistance was formed decades after peace had been made with the Imperial Remnant while The First Order was a separate entity formed in secret in the meantime.

From there you're more or less on the mark. We're still waiting on future books to fill in details on exactly what happens when The First Order emerges, but the suggestion so far is that not only is the Republic not willing to start a war, but a significant faction actually shares the ideology any may either support them or even flat out join prior to the events of TFA.

 

[KaraFang]

It absolutely fails, the reason it fails isn't just because it's an inferior version of A New Hope, no, it's because of the characters.

Rey: FAR TOO POWERFUL. Seriously, she's already the most powerful force user despite pretty much knowing nothing about it.

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist,

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

Personally? Considering that JJ had a big role in the "direction" of the new films and that he doesn't (frankly) have the ability to come up with a new idea, and finally that he's commented a lot in interviews that he is a BIG KOTOR fan, I think simply.

Rey is doing a "Revan".

She's powerful and able to do mindtricks and hold her own against Kylo because she was a Sith.
When she has the "flashback" touching Lukes old sabre, Luke is on the left, Kylo and some of his knights are on the right, her viewpoint in inbetween on the floor.

I think she's the one who turned Kylo to the dark and seduced him. You can "read" a lot of his lines and when you listen to his tone when he says "You still want to kill me, don't you?" it's almost dark amusement. He also doesn't let them torture her 1st in the base... he talks to her (unlike the pilot dude, who so so forgettable I've forgotten his name).

So, I think JJ has set up that Rey is a mindwiped Sith... mindwiped by Luke. (oh, and notice when he turns... his facial expression is one of sadness and regret when he's looking at her. He might be just dismayed someone found him... but it could be he's facing the person who helped destroy his new Jedi and the Acadamy, and she has NO IDEA!!

Man, I hope that's the case... for most people in the movie theatre who haven't played KOTOR? Total Mind screw "I am your father" level.

 

[twistedmic]

She's powerful and able to do mindtricks and hold her own against Kylo because she was a Sith.
When she has the "flashback" touching Lukes old sabre, Luke is on the left, Kylo and some of his knights are on the right, her viewpoint in inbetween on the floor.

I think she's the one who turned Kylo to the dark and seduced him. You can "read" a lot of his lines and when you listen to his tone when he says "You still want to kill me, don't you?" it's almost dark amusement. He also doesn't let them torture her 1st in the base... he talks to her (unlike the pilot dude, who so so forgettable I've forgotten his name).

So, I think JJ has set up that Rey is a mindwiped Sith... mindwiped by Luke. (oh, and notice when he turns... his facial expression is one of sadness and regret when he's looking at her. He might be just dismayed someone found him... but it could be he's facing the person who helped destroy his new Jedi and the Acadamy, and she has NO IDEA!!

Man, I hope that's the case... for most people in the movie theatre who haven't played KOTOR? Total Mind screw "I am your father" level.

One, it is explicitly stated that Snoke was the one who seduced him to the dark side. Two, in the flashbacks Rey was a small child so highly unlikely that she was a Sith. 3. Kylo Ren and Snoke are/were not Sith, they are dark side force users (there is a difference). 4. Kylo Ren is trying to turn Rey to the dark side, torturing her right off the bat is not a good way to do that.
5. Look could alos be upset that he felt his friend and six planets worth of people (if you count whoever was still on Starkiller base when it imploded) die and has to live with the knowledge that his nephew killed Han (his friend) and is working for the people that just destroyed five planets.

 

[KaraFang]

One, it is explicitly stated that Snoke was the one who seduced him to the dark side. Two, in the flashbacks Rey was a small child so highly unlikely that she was a Sith. 3. Kylo Ren and Snoke are/were not Sith, they are dark side force users (there is a difference). 4. Kylo Ren is trying to turn Rey to the dark side, torturing her right off the bat is not a good way to do that.
5. Look could alos be upset that he felt his friend and six planets worth of people (if you count whoever was still on Starkiller base when it imploded) die and has to live with the knowledge that his nephew killed Han (his friend) and is working for the people that just destroyed five planets.

Doesn't mean that Snoke didn't use someone else as part of turning Ren. If they're not officially Sith, just Darkside receptive (whatever being a Sith vs Not one means, I'm not a SW fan, just someone who enjoys the movies like most people and would assume a darkside force user would be a Sith in the movie.), then the "rule of two" is it? would not apply.

The flashbacks were mixed of rey as a child (possibly the fake memories shoved in here) vs the real ones that got her there aka the Jedi academy and the Knights of Ren. If they did do a Revan to her, then touching a force powered object would trigger all manner of jumbled crap in there.

Hurting people to make you join them seems to be quite the sith thing to do... Vader has no issues with beating the crap out of Luke, cutting off his hand and THEN asking him to join him, so not torturing Rey to make him join him? Uh huh...

Luke could be feeling that, but then you lose the emotional impact and he's staring at Rey at the time... I think we can associate any feelings on his face at that time to be aimed at her.

Still think that we could be in for a Rey was darkside and they did a "Revan" on her. Would make her and the movies far more interesting than what we currently have. TFW wasn't bad, per se, but it wasn't amazing either. It was "serviceable" and does have the potential to become the jumping point for something better. (shrugs)