The Force Awakens question

[Thaluikhain]

Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control?

Well, after a successful revolution, not uncommon for the revolutionaries to disagree about who gets to be in power.

I seriously doubt that's what they are going for, but it's the only way a new Resistance and a new government that were working together at least once makes sense.

 

[circularlogic88]

Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control?

Well, after a successful revolution, not uncommon for the revolutionaries to disagree about who gets to be in power.

I seriously doubt that's what they are going for, but it's the only way a new Resistance and a new government that were working together at least once makes sense.

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

That's the truth. A lot of the backstory to TFA is in supporting material, like comic books, tie-in books etc.. In one way I am sort of glad it is because the movie would have dragged down immensely if they tried explaining it all there, in another it also means that some things come off as pretty iffy.

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

 

[circularlogic88]

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

That's the truth. A lot of the backstory to TFA is in supporting material, like comic books, tie-in books etc.. In one way I am sort of glad it is because the movie would have dragged down immensely if they tried explaining it all there, in another it also means that some things come off as pretty iffy.

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

Thank you for clarifying that. I really appreciate it.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers, knows how to pilot an X-Wing, and makes a shot without mechanical aid that trained bomber pilots and Red Leader couldn't which negates that "anyone could've done it" argument quite handily. Don't mix up country boy boasting for actual technical skill.

And Rey, who's big claim to fame is take a durable freighter and not bumping into too many things while Finn shoots down a couple TIE:FOs that aren't trying to shoot them down (Seriously, she scraps it along the ground at one point. Pro pilot she is not).

Oh, and she learns the mind trick, which just about any Jedi worth their salt could use on a low willpower storm trooper. (Edit: I'm gonna expand on this. Rey learns that the force can be used to override someone's willpower after having a dark sided apprentice who isn't very good at it use it on her, and then, after failing on a Stormtrooper, eventually gets it to work)

So no, I don't find Rey to be any more of a Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist, and you're just gonna have to deal with someone else's subjective opinion being different then your own.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I don't hate it but I find it more forgettable as time goes on. Sure I liked what they did with set design and all the little details (BB8 is a fine addition) but I feel less invested in it than I did for Rogue One. I'm sure all the plot things happening in The Last Jedi will be more interesting. At least I hope so. VII was just kinda blaise with its notadeathstar sequence.

My thoughts. I adore Star Wars but I'm not going to work hard to defend the faults of Force Awakens. I just don't have the energy, I'll let the fanatical side of the fanbase do that for me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

Where's Zontar gone to?

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

I think the idea was that the Republic saw the First Order as the Star Wars version of North Korea; a near-irrelevant rump state in an impoverished part of the galaxy that talks a big game but is mostly hot air. Until they perfect their nukes Starkiller Base, and the Republic has just enough time to go "oh shit" before the heart of their government is obliterated.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

Where's Zontar gone to?

As far as I got it, it was more like letting the Resistance keep an eye on them and fight them off when they, invariably, tried to venture beyond their own borders or cause problems for the Republic. But yeah, the entire thing does not exactly paint the Republic in the best of lights, because they come off as both incredibly negligent and pretty shady and spiteful, both at once.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I went from being skeptical to excited when the trailers came out. It seemed like there was a great film on offer with a mix of new characters and classic Star Wars tropes.

Then I saw the film, and I was thoroughly unimpressed.

Spoiler

It is literally a remake of A New Hope. The bones of the plot are the same, the character arcs are basically the same, the set piece action scenes are set up in exactly the same way. Even the existing characters basically just end up becoming the older archetypes from the first film. Han is Obi Wan, Luke is Yoda, Leia is Mon Mothma. I had heard some people saying there were similarities, but I wasn't expecting the totally not Imperials to hunt for totally not R2D2 on totally not Tatooine. Christ, The Phantom Menace was more original!

That raises an interesting point. The Phantom Menace was considered a bad film because Lucas injected so many terrible and unwanted elements - Jar Jar, midichlorians, Jake Lloyd etc. It made fans wish it had never existed. The Force Awakens is the polar opposite: it's a take-no-chances affair crafted around the philosophy that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But it left me feeling like I'd prefer it not to exist, because it's as if nothing in the original trilogy matters. The new Empire has a Death Star yet again. The Republic can be more or less wiped out instantly, and they're back to being 'rebels'. The Sith are in control, and the only Jedi are either in hiding or untrained.

I never thought I'd say this, but there is a whole heap of the Extended Universe that is objectively better than what Disney and Abrams served up.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I loved it. I thought the movie got better with each of the three viewings I saw in the theater. And I think you can say a lot of things about the film and its plot holes, convenient story development and similarities to A New Hope, but one thing I don't think can be criticized (at least well) is the casting. I think they absolutely hit a home run with the "next generation" in Ridley, Boyega and Driver (and Oscar Isaac too). And I thought the movie had more heart than Rogue One, and it's not even close. I don't even remember the names of the characters in Rogue One, and I found them and the movie overall largely forgettable.

The Phantom Menace was considered a bad film because Lucas injected so many terrible and unwanted elements - Jar Jar, midichlorians, Jake Lloyd etc. It made fans wish it had never existed. The Force Awakens is the polar opposite: it's a take-no-chances affair crafted around the philosophy that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Two thoughts:
1) The Phantom Menace is the best of the prequel trilogy by a country mile, which may not be saying much, but still...
2) I disagree with your assessment on The Force Awakens not taking chances. First, the movie reintroduces the franchise's most beloved hero in Han Solo as a reclusive burnout and failed father/husband. THEN the movie kills him off -- not in some cheesy heroic climax, but in a bleak, failed attempt to save his son from the dark side. And overall, instead of showing Luke, Leia and Han living happily ever after defeating the Empire/Emperor, the movie has their lives in relative shambles: Luke as a hermit in hiding, Leia alone with a broken family, and of course the aforementioned Han. That's not exactly the dark turn that a lot of fans were expecting. So yes, it's similar to A New Hope, but it most definitely takes chances and goes places that George Lucas NEVER in a million years would have gone.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers, knows how to pilot an X-Wing, and makes a shot without mechanical aid that trained bomber pilots and Red Leader couldn't which negates that "anyone could've done it" argument quite handily. Don't mix up country boy boasting for actual technical skill.

And Rey, who's big claim to fame is take a durable freighter and not bumping into too many things while Finn shoots down a couple TIE:FOs that aren't trying to shoot them down (Seriously, she scraps it along the ground at one point. Pro pilot she is not).

Oh, and she learns the mind trick, which just about any Jedi worth their salt could use on a low willpower storm trooper. (Edit: I'm gonna expand on this. Rey learns that the force can be used to override someone's willpower after having a dark sided apprentice who isn't very good at it use it on her, and then, after failing on a Stormtrooper, eventually gets it to work)

So no, I don't find Rey to be any more of a Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist, and you're just gonna have to deal with someone else's subjective opinion being different then your own.

Number one, EVERYONE except those rebels at the start outfights Stormtroopers, and in Episode 4, The Empire was TRYING to make sure they escaped so they could track them to the rebel base. It makes SENSE there that the Troopers aren't doing too hot. Not to mention Red leader screwing up the shot was listed as a technical issue due to the computers being faulty, not because of a failing on their part.

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

Also, you're just going to write off Rey's piloting like that? She flew a VERY awkwardly designed ship that was stated to NEED a co-pilot single handily, through a ton of tight twists and turns while flying at extremely high speeds and being shot at. That's a bit more than "not bumping into too many things". And that rough take off? Oh yeah, that TOTALLY makes up for flying like an Ace with minimal experience.

Seriously, the scene in question.


Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

 

[Breakdown]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers.

Three foot tall teddie bears can outfight Storm Troopers, so that's not saying much...

Besides which, I'd guess that flying a fighter craft in space with an astrometric droid helping you out is easier than flying the derelict Millenium Falcon in an atmosphere, hugging the ground and weaving through the wrecks of Star Destroyers.

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent. And after spending so long searching for the map to Luke's location, why would the Resistance just let her go alone? It's just that everybody is obsessed with Rey the moment they meet her, because she's a Mary Sue character.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

Actually, that was the part that really got me for some reason. Sure, lots of things made no sense, but hang on, she's got the wrong accent.

Though, Earth accents for space people is an issue in of itself.

 

[twistedmic]

Three foot tall teddie bears can outfight Storm Troopers, so that's not saying much...

The Ewoks had numbers and the home field advantage over the stormtroopers while using ambush tactics. Add to that the fact that Ewoks are clearly hunters and meat eaters (they planned on eating Han, Chewie and Luke after all) so clearly know how to kill living beings.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Two thoughts:
1) The Phantom Menace is the best of the prequel trilogy by a country mile, which may not be saying much, but still...
2) I disagree with your assessment on The Force Awakens not taking chances. First, the movie reintroduces the franchise's most beloved hero in Han Solo as a reclusive burnout and failed father/husband. THEN the movie kills him off -- not in some cheesy heroic climax, but in a bleak, failed attempt to save his son from the dark side. And overall, instead of showing Luke, Leia and Han living happily ever after defeating the Empire/Emperor, the movie has their lives in relative shambles: Luke as a hermit in hiding, Leia alone with a broken family, and of course the aforementioned Han. That's not exactly the dark turn that a lot of fans were expecting. So yes, it's similar to A New Hope, but it most definitely takes chances and goes places that George Lucas NEVER in a million years would have gone.

Thanks for the reply. I actually don't dislike The Phantom Menace, I loved it as a 12 year old. It's more that some of the elements - particularly the midichlorians - put me off when I was older.

I don't think what they do to Han, Luke and Leia can be considered 'taking chances' because as I said earlier, they just take on the same roles as other characters in the original trilogy. When I say 'taking chances', I mean not relying on basically the same plot setup they use before, ie bad guys in box seat with WMDs, rebels on run, Jedi barely existing. No, a film taking some chances would have told a story that doesn't unfold in the same way. For all the crap associated with The Phantom Menace, at least that film had a different spin - the Jedi are the 'UN peacekeepers' of the galaxy, the Sith are working through proxies, the Republic's bureaucracy is unwittingly bringing about its own downfall.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

 

[twistedmic]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

Unkar Plutt had the same accent, and it was implied via force flashback that he was Rey's guardian after she was left on Jakku.

 

[Natemans]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

Eh... She was like seven when they left her there. Seven years is enough time to learn a dialect.

That and I always thought she learned different languages based on the the fact that Unkar Plutt's base has tons of different species show up often from ships and also the ships she scavenges has tons of backed-up databanks.

 

[Callate]

I enjoyed it well enough. I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed Rogue One, honestly. There are a few things I could have done without, like revealing that Finn was a janitor- it seemed as though the desire to make Rey this awesome Jedi-to-be came somewhat at Finn's expense, when he could have received more respect from the script leading off from his conscious decision to defect from the First Order. And to be clear, I like Rey well enough for herself; I just worry that the movies may be so determined to beat the "strong female lead!" drum that she'll become their Mary Sue. For all the echoes of the original Star Wars (I'm not going to call it "A New Hope", thank ye) consider where Luke was at the end-point of the first movie... He'd just blown up the Death Star, yes, but he only escaped being shot out of the sky because of an ally's timely intervention, and there was little sense that everything was riding on his shoulders alone, or that he was such a superhero that that was a reasonable assumption.

Star Wars was at some pains to make it clear that the smart response to the Big Bad coming on the scene was to run. Rey has already kicked the Big Bad's ass. And maybe Snoke, our Emperor stand-in, will come back swinging, but right now... The biggest thing the First Order has going for them is that they managed to field the Death Star squared, at least until the Resistance came in and did the Rebellion thing.

And, yeah, there is that- a bit of the "Like the originals, but BIGGER" thing.

Still, I don't mean to come across as overly negative. I did like a lot of things. They handled the re-introduction of Han and Leia pretty well (I know a lot of people in my audience applauded their arrival.) I generally like the new characters, including Kylo Ren, for all that he isn't exactly making me quiver in my boots. The special effects were well done, and well integrated, managing to wow without too much of the "Hey, look! Computer-generated special effects!" hokum that plagues a lot of "tentpole" movies. The emotional moments felt earned. BB-8 is adorable, and he (she? it?) doesn't come with the baggage of a bunch of abilities he mysteriously lost between movies and at least one scene of callous indifference to his closest companion's life.

I don't think it's the greatest Star Wars movie evah, but I do think it's a Star Wars movie, and more so that can be said of Lucas' second run at the subject. And that's no small achievement.