The Force Awakens question

[happyninja42]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there? You think that's ok? And you'd be fine with that? Instead of you know, rooting out the actual threat.
You feel it's a justified action to kill 99% innocent lives, to make sure you get that small fraction of people who are your rivals? I hope you never run for some political office, because that is some seriously fucked up thinking.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

We know that some of the Alderaan nobility were supporting the Rebels. The Empire did not know that. Tarkin knew that Alderaan wasn't a military target, and destroyed it as a show of force after believing Leia's lie about the rebels being on Dantooine. And if you're worried about freedom fighters stealing your doombase plans, maybe don't build a doombase using slavery and coercion with the intent of blowing up planets to rule the galaxy through fear! That the rebellion managed to destroy a military target that had just been used to murder billions doesn't justify the murder of billions. The Death Star wasn't going to bring order to the galaxy. Hell, the destruction of Alderaan and the Empire's role in it is what gave the Rebellion the true legitimacy. That's the point that previously neutral or even Imperial planets and personnel started defecting en mass.

And the cherry on top of the shit pile that was the Death Star, you've got a heap of dead Jawas and a couple dead relatives who had no beef with the Empire. What were they going to do if left alive, wonder what the fuss over a couple of droids was?

 

[Breakdown]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

 

[irishda]

I look at it as the way Star Wars should've been from the beginning. It basically steals the plot from New Hope (which is a funny critique considering how many people were asking for something similar back before the movie came out), but then it's also one of the best directed and acted movies out of the whole series. There's a reason almost every competent actor in the OG trilogy hated those movies by an incredible amount.

So while it has its criticisms, I like it a lot more than the other Star Wars movies.

 

[Zontar]

but then it's also one of the best directed and acted movies out of the whole series. There's a reason almost every competent actor in the OG trilogy hated those movies by an incredible amount.

Directed, maybe, acted though, that it was definitely on par with the prequels. I mean for got sake one of the leads has her default appearance be a fishface. Though the writing, dialogue and completely incoherent plot is the real problem with the movie.

I'd also like to point out the only "competent" actor who didn't like the OG trilogy was Sir Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford (and even then Ford agreed to be in the third one despite not having a contractual obligation to do so). Peter Cushing stated that he loved working on it and wished his character hadn't died since he couldn't play the character again as a result (if only he knew), and James Earl Jones seems to love voicing Vader.

 

[Zontar]

There are only two genuinely competent people in the Empire of the old cannon: Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon

To be fair, that's still one more competent leader then the Rebellion/Republic could muster. The setting as a whole doesn't have a high level of military or governance competency, which makes the fact the Republic lasted 25,000 years and survived multiple galaxy spanning wars and at least one foreign occupation amazing given it was always a house of cards.

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there?

Keep in mind that this was the government of this hypothetical city that was supporting this terrorist group, one which did manage to use those supplies to destroy a military instillation which would have its destruction realistically plunged the galaxy into an economic depression so large and long lasting even by the time of TFA it wouldn't realistically have been recovered from.

[We know that some of the Alderaan nobility were supporting the Rebels. The Empire did not know that.

They literally captured one of the highest members of that nobility, first in line to the throne, with an intercepted transmission with the stolen plans to the DS-1 Battle Station. In Canon it's even worst now since they did so while being seen running away from a battle that was the single largest assault by the Rebellion ever, which saw the deployment and destruction of most of the Rebel fleet.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

They literally captured one of the highest members of that nobility, first in line to the throne, with an intercepted transmission with the stolen plans to the DS-1 Battle Station. In Canon it's even worst now since they did so while being seen running away from a battle that was the single largest assault by the Rebellion ever, which saw the deployment and destruction of most of the Rebel fleet.

You realize that this is the equivalent of the US capturing one Chinese spy in the 60's, with US atomic bomb schematics, and deciding to nuke the entire country because "apparently the Chinese don't like the USA", right? Even if said Chinese spy was the son of the Chinese Prime Minister, it would still be a grossly exaggerated use of force that would cause staggering amounts of collateral casualties in a population where most would have done nothing more wrong then being born in the wrong place.

The Empire is a literal expy of the Nazis, how anyone could try to justify their (cartoon-level exaggerated) atrocities is beyond me. It won't stop me from rolling Darth Vader, Soontir Fel and Tie Fighter support in X-Wing, but let's not pretend as if Tarkin has any point beyond twirling his metaphorical mustache of evil when he orders the destruction of Alderaan. The entire scene is meant to show the audience just how callously evil the Empire is, and anyone who comes away from Rogue One/A New Hope with the idea that Tarkin has a point and the Death Star is a 'stabilizer' in galactic politics should probably consider re-visiting the movies and/or their own political motivations.

 

[happyninja42]

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there?

Keep in mind that this was the government of this hypothetical city that was supporting this terrorist group, one which did manage to use those supplies to destroy a military instillation which would have its destruction realistically plunged the galaxy into an economic depression so large and long lasting even by the time of TFA it wouldn't realistically have been recovered from.

Keep in mind, that the people in that hypothetical city did NOT blow up your military installation. That was in fact, a completely different group of people who were resisting you. An attack that was fueled and backed (by more people), by your reckless destruction of an entire city to stamp out a small group of dissidents. You don't get to retroactively justify killing a planet because the people they allied with ended up blowing up your shiny toy. You killed them unprovoked.

And I noticed you didn't actually answer my question. Would YOU be ok with your government, or hell, an OUTSIDE force in this example, blowing up your entire city that you currently live in, right now, because of what your mayor thinks? Or not even the mayor, just the fact that a handful (because we have no confirmation of how many people on the entire fucking planet were actually supporting the rebel effort, but I can guarantee it's not 100%, it's never 100% anything) of people in your city are actively resisting some government. Would you be ok with that? Would you think that was a fair and just result? That you look up, right now, from wherever you are sitting reading this sentence, and see death coming from the sky, to wipe out your entire city, for the crimes of another person? Do you think that is a fair and just policy of behavior for a government to use when dealing with threats?

 

[Breakdown]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

Watching that scene again, I can't help feeling that Obi Wan Kenobi is just making shit up to impress Luke.

 

[Natemans]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

I've worn a stormtrooper once that I bought for a convention. Dude, no wonder they suck. Couldn't see a damn thing in those things. All of that money to make great weapons and ships yet can't get decent helmets to aim better?

Watching that scene again, I can't help feeling that Obi Wan Kenobi is just making shit up to impress Luke.

 

[twistedmic]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

Please explain to me why Finn is a war criminal for killing, at most, seven unarmed tower crew members yet the Empire is not evil when they eradicate an entire non-military planet that had no discernible defenses (shields or weapons) and had absolutely no chance to surrender or evacuate. Also explain how killing and torturing unarmed prisoners (who had surrendered), and killing unarmed civilians (Owen, Beru and the Jawas) are not evil acts.
And finally, please give a valid and non-evil reason to build a weapon capable of utterly destroying an entire planet.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

Not really. A uniformed combatant does not need to be armed with a personal weapon to be a legitimate target, if their role in the organization means they are crewing or maintaining a larger weapons platform. As such killing deck hands on a military vessel while trying to escape is completely alright, as they are keeping the Star Destroyer and/or its' TIE fighters functional. Had they taken steps to show their intent to surrender it would be illegal, but none of them does. The people in the tower also explicitly try to stop the escape by operating in their capacity of communications and logistics specialists, which makes them legitimate targets.

If your interpretation of international law was correct, it'd be a war crime to sink any ship where everyone in the crew didn't have access to a personal defense weapon. It isn't, as the ship itself is the weapon and anyone aboard is counted as servicing the weapon. The only exemptions to these rules are medical personnel (including field medics) and chaplains, who are to be easily identified via designs on their uniforms, but even they are considered acceptable collateral damage if aboard military vessels or near military targets during combat or when attacked by weapons that doesn't discriminate between victims, such as artillery and grenades.

As for the threat part: Poe was exercising his legal right to try and escape and evade capture (as provisioned in the Geneva convention, all PoWs have the right to try and escape captivity and return to their own military), which means that anyone that can undo his escape attempt and belong to the military of the enemy is a threat to him in that situation. Even if they are unarmed, they can call on reinforcements that are not and as such they constitute a) a uniformed combatant and b) a threat to Poe's mission which makes them legitimate targets.

 

[Natemans]

It wasn't good, for me it is the definition of making a film by commitee. No chances whatsoever with nearly everything stolen from the older movies. I'd rather watch The Phantom Menace since it at least tried.

I don't. Phantom Menace felt very forced, bland and downright boring to sit through.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I really liked TFA. I grok the common criticism that it's a rehash of Ep. IV, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as it seems to bother other people.

I mean, the fans basically said "We Want More Star Wars," and they were given more Star Wars. Then afterwards they suddenly wanted something different...?

 

[Winnosh]

Still like it. Actually prefer it to Rogue One. Less annoyances and less horrible retcons as well.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist,

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

Luke is the guy who hits an unaimed shot with proton torpedoes against a target that's so small that even veteran combat pilots claim that it is impossible. Let's not diminish just how awesome nailing that shot actually is. On top of that he advances from having flown a recreational speeder to piloting an X-wing with such skill that he's one of only three survivors of the Death Star run, the other two being Wedge m-fing Antilles and an unnamed Y-wing pilot that had to pull out due to sustaining too much damage. He also manages to guilt trip Han Solo into returning at a critical moment. Not to mention his ability to grasp how to use a laser turret to destroy multiple TIE fighters the second time he gets aboard the Falcon. And that's just A New Hope, the later movies plays him up even more.

Sure, Luke is not as Mary Sue-ish as Rey or Anakin, but he's not that far off (especially in episodes V and VI). Anakin is arguably the most Sue-ish of the three though, since he's essentially a plot hole walking, where the plot bends around him so that he can keep doing whatever he does without anyone ever reacting to his increasingly psychopathic behavior. You'd think that someone would react to him disobeying a direct order through word play in Episode 1, or that someone would lock him into Jedi solitary after killing all those Tusken in Episode 2 (or after seducing Padm? or after disobeying another explicit order through wordplay to get a shot at killing the Tusken to begin with), but no. Rey has a lot of power and is instantly liked by pretty much everyone she meets, which sure qualifies her for Sue status, but it is a plot point at least (her extreme force sensitivity is what makes Kylo/Snoke interested in her and why she seeks out Luke). Anakin has all that and the writers fiat to constantly escape the consequences of his stupid/evil/rash actions, which is the mark of an extraordinary Mary Sue.

EDIT: And technically, the Jedi Mind trick was used by Luke in early Episode VI before he was even considered a fully trained Jedi. It is not the mark of a Jedi Master as much as something that most Jedis learn to do at some point.

 

[circularlogic88]

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist,

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

Pretty much. I became bored with Rey by the end of the film. She just didn't strike me as being very compelling and her seeming mastery over every task set out before her with no explanation just annoyed me.

Visually the movie was good, but narratively, it was kinda all over the place. Who are the First Order? How have they amassed such resources to not only sustain a functioning military regime without the need for clone troopers (stealing children is bullshit) but also commission the hollowing out of an entire planet and still somehow keep this operation a secret? Who would support them outside of their organization? Especially after destroying several planets filled with precious resources? Why are they blowing up planets with a Death Star Shotgun? Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control? Shouldn't the Republic have it's own form of military protection for its planets, you know, like the Old Republic or even the Rebellion forces they amassed together to fight the Empire? It's almost like they're asking to be challenged by opposing forces at that point. So wait, Jakku is on lockdown but we're supposed to take it as read that Poe is able to get off planet and back to the base by himself? Why couldn't we have seen that? Or alternatively, why couldn't he have been with Rey and Finn the whole time? Leave the piloting to him, have Rey keep the ship together and have Finn shoot. Why does everything have to tie back to the Skywalkers? Most importantly, why doesn't the movie tell us any of this?

Just didn't particularly enjoy it all that much. Too many questions for me. I'm the minority though. I know it. I don't watch movies like most people. I just can't shut off my brain.