The Half-Naked Elf Problem

Chemical Alia

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vortexgods said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Here is a comparison between the original Korean and U.S./EU models;

Small breasted (though not completely flat) but has an adult woman's hips. Not built like a child, at all.

If anything it's easier to tell it's an adult woman in the Korean version (not that either one looks remotely like a kid). My guess is that most of the pro-censorship crowd are not fond of ballet, where this build is more common. (Although, most ballet dancers do not have quite so pronounced child-bearing hips.)

American viewers are imagining children where there are none. People are disturbed by this image? I'm disturbed that there are people who see an obviously adult woman and think child. I could probably come up with a psychological evaluation here, but lets face it this kind of reading perverse sexual things into situations where there aren't any seems to be a peculiarly American phenomenon. Only in America do I hear about the sexual orientation of Teletubbies and muppets like Bert and Ernie. I just have to sigh and shake my head as another piece of commercial art is censored according to the whims of insane fundamentalist preachers (who are well known for having bizarre sexual proclivities themselves, as you can read in the news).

She's short, yeah, but short dwarves, gnomes, kenders, hobbits, etc have been part of high-fantasy RPGs since before the actual RPGs existed and all you had were the Lord of the Rings books. (Oh, also, there are little people in real life. Adults, and built like adults, but small.)
When I see that face, I see this:



I see a four year old's face on a barely pubescent 4.5-head-tall female body. The hips may be exaggerated, but that is the only feature that stands out as remotely mature to me. Then again, I've also seen plenty of 14/15-year-old girls with more pronounced hips than my own. It's not by accident that the character was designed with features that resemble a young child. It's well understood by artists what features to give a figure when you want to reflect a particular age, and this clearly shows a conscious choice.

 

ObjectiveReality

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The Dungeon Seige games had millions and millions of items with the same stats. This meant that you could get the same buffs or whatever, but have your characters look basically however you wanted. Is it prohibitively fiddly to do this for MMORPGs? I find that slightly hard to believe, given the number of oufits and/or silly hats that seem to be available anyway...
 

SajuukKhar

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Ohh boy, people getting angry over fictional character's appearances.

This is almost as stupid as getting angry over mass gore and violence in video games.......
 

Axyun

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My opinion on the Elin issue? No harm, no foul.

GTA does not incubate thoughts of theft and murder in the minds of its players. Are people with a penchant for violence drawn to GTA? Probably. Are people who are not violent eventually made so by GTA? Of course not. That's just ridiculous.
 

Eventidal

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Scrustle said:
Eventidal said:
That's more or less it. For example when you get to level 10 higher level armour and gems start to become available. The higher level armour would have say, 3 slots for gems opposed to the highest level armour you could get before which only had 2 slots. But when you level up you also gain a skill point which allows you to add an extra gem slot in to a lower level example of a certain class of armour. So if you choose to you will be able to have any style of armour you want and it will still have the best potential for protection. This skill point would be applied to an entire class of armour, so if you decide to switch armour sets at any point you won't lose out on gem slots. But you still need to specialise in a certain class.

Armour would still be unique because gems wouldn't just be things like "+20 defence points", there would be others with more traditional and interesting effects, like the examples you described. So these effects work like side-grades and you can create something interesting and unique, as if you were creating an enchanted item like in other RPGs. But this way you are free to choose what your armour looks like.

It may not be the best system ever but I think it would be a great way to solve the problem of having everyone look the same and people not looking how they want, which still makes sense within the context of the game.
What's the point of giving gem slot numbers to armor though? If you can increase the capacity of low level armor sets of a particular type using points gained by leveling, there's no point in higher level armor having more gem slots. The progression to more slots and better gems should be there, but gaining more gem slots would ideally be a system separate from the equipment itself. I'd imagine a simple system where armor types gain "experience" and level up when you fight with some equipped. Each level they would gain another gem slot. Gems themselves would likely be limited only by level, based on a simple tier system. (tier 0: any level, tier 1: level 15+, tier 2: level 30+, etc.) The name of the gem would dictate how much of what stat it gives, and the tier would multiply those effects and apply a level limit.

That's an interesting system, though. With some work it could be great.
 

vortexgods

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Chemical Alia said:
vortexgods said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
...snip...

When I see that face, I see this:



I see a four year old's face on a barely pubescent 4.5-head-tall female body. The hips may be exaggerated, but that is the only feature that stands out as remotely mature to me. Then again, I've also seen plenty of 14/15-year-old girls with more pronounced hips than my own. It's not by accident that the character was designed with features that resemble a young child. It's well understood by artists what features to give a figure when you want to reflect a particular age, and this clearly shows a conscious choice.

--snip--

----

On the left: image of the supermodel Kate Moss, on the right: example of a photographed 4-year-old girl that took part in our experiment regarding the "babyfaceness hypothesis". The face of Kate Moss clearly shows characteristic features of babyfaces, but at the same time it also includes mature female features like high, prominent cheek bones and concave cheeks which are accentuated evenly by using make-up. Cunningham (1986) claims that the presence of both characteristic features makes faces very attractive.
-- [a]http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_II/Psychologie/Psy_II/beautycheck/english/kindchenschema/kindchenschema.htm[/a]



To quote Fantômas, "I win."
 

Shia-Neko-Chan

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Scrumpmonkey said:
Actually i have heard of Tera, the biggest thing i heard about it is that is basically has a "Scantily Clad Loli" class. No seriosuly look;



Yeahhhh... im not comfortable with whoever designed those. Stay the fuck away from me

Oh, wow. I had no idea that everyone who is short and flat-chested is automatically a child.

Look out Heather, who I met at college and Elizabeth, my co-worker, every boyfriend you guys have ever had are going to jail for being pedophiles, despite you guys being well over 18!

Thanks for opening my eyes!
 

Chemical Alia

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vortexgods said:
On the left: image of the supermodel Kate Moss, on the right: example of a photographed 4-year-old girl that took part in our experiment regarding the "babyfaceness hypothesis". The face of Kate Moss clearly shows characteristic features of babyfaces, but at the same time it also includes mature female features like high, prominent cheek bones and concave cheeks which are accentuated evenly by using make-up. Cunningham (1986) claims that the presence of both characteristic features makes faces very attractive.
-- [a]http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_II/Psychologie/Psy_II/beautycheck/english/kindchenschema/kindchenschema.htm[/a]
Notice how it says "both"? And how Kate Moss doesn't look like a toddler but an actual adult? There's a slight difference going on here. I'd say there's a pretty clear line between some neotenous traits in an anime-styled character design and a straight up preschooler's face, and your average person can discern which side these characters in question fall under.
 

intheweeds

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DVS BSTrD said:
intheweeds said:
DVS BSTrD said:
intheweeds said:
DVS BSTrD said:
Surely a practical full-body armor suit can be made to look sexy? And as for existing preferences, why not just have the same design, but with stronger materials?.
I really hope you're kidding here, it's funny if you think that the only problem with it is that women are showing skin. We actually don't need to look sexy all the time, you know. Certainly not when we are wearing a full suit of armor. I mean, really... really?

It does, however, bring up my thoughts on this:

What if I want to play a bad-ass? Seriously, I'm a girl, if I'm playing a game where I my character requires armor, I am obviously playing a game where combat is a major focus. This is not an "I want to look my prettiest" situation. I want to look like a friggin bad-ass. If I'm carrying a massive sword, I want to look like I might be strong enough to actually swing it and smart enough to protect my friggin midriff in a battle.

It's pretty obvious by the huge muscular men and hardcore armor that is so standard to most genres that men like to play games to feel like bad-asses. We do too! Why should we have to look sexy all the time? I like that feeling of getting off work and relaxing by turning into an online warrior too, you know. I just want to be able to look like one. Why can't women look hard too?

I quit WoW a while ago, but I played for years. Most of my characters were male just because they are the ones who get to actually look like they could battle. I loved my female Pally, but mostly because I found it hilarious and cute that her tiny frame would be swinging around this massive axe. She shouldn't look hilarious and cute - she should look awesome.
You don't understand the male mind do you?
Wow, way to completely miss the point - and be horribly sexist. All in the first statement. I doubt the 'male mind' is really all that different from the woman's anyway, other than the fact that he's used to having media cater to him all the time. Maybe shut up about your thoughts and consider what I just mentioned is going on in my 'female mind' just for a second since this is entirely what the article is about?

Anyway, no one is saying armor can't be sexy. I'm saying it shouldn't always be.

Look up. See that tiny moving dot way up over your head? That's the point.
Wow way to disregard almost EVERYTHING i said in that post.
TLDR: It's not that armor HAS to be sexy, it's just that it CAN be sexy and it doesn't have to be skimpy to do it. You make it sound like such an effort, but then again if trying to actually understand what people are saying is too hard for you, then it probably is.
No I read the whole damn thing. It's you who missed my point and the point of the entire article as well as the meaning of the word 'choice'. If you had read my post, you would realize that:
a) women, believe it or not, do NOT always want to look sexy regardless of your 'male minds' desires. And, shocker, we shouldn't have to.

b) your supplied images of 'practical armor which still looks sexy', is both the exact kind of 'body paint' i described in my post, and not fucking battle armor at all. You have shown painted on cat suits.

You fail. I don't care to continue this anymore. "Battle of wits", "unarmed man" and all that.
 

FFKonoko

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I can't help but notice that in the link about the jiggle physics, there is a guy with a completely ridiculous chest/ab window on his clothes. So, some equality in ridiculousness at least...
But yeah, choice is always good. And that's not even something that is rooted just in the whole "my scantily clad elf" deal. I presume that not every guy wants to look like a walking pile of metal at the high end.
 

Bassik

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Shia-Neko-Chan said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Actually i have heard of Tera, the biggest thing i heard about it is that is basically has a "Scantily Clad Loli" class. No seriosuly look;



Yeahhhh... im not comfortable with whoever designed those. Stay the fuck away from me

Oh, wow. I had no idea that everyone who is short and flat-chested is automatically a child.

Look out Heather, who I met at college and Elizabeth, my co-worker, every boyfriend you guys have ever had are going to jail for being pedophiles, despite you guys being well over 18!

Thanks for opening my eyes!
Short and flat chested does not make you look like a child, looking like a preteen does.

What the hell is wrong with the god damn internet today? I thought this kind of bull was something you'd see on 4chan.
Paedophilia is never okay, I don't care that you talk it all right in your head how these creatures are not really children, you know they look an awful lot like them.

You sick fucks.
 

SajuukKhar

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Bassik said:
Short and flat chested does not make you look like a child, looking like a preteen does.

What the hell is wrong with the god damn internet today? I thought this kind of bull was something you'd see on 4chan.
Paedophilia is never okay, I don't care that you talk it all right in your head how these creatures are not really children, you know they look an awful lot like them.

You sick fucks.
How is it pedophilia? They aren't real.

Is killing people in games now murder also?

I think its stupid to make that a MMO race like that but really, people are taking "what thinking its ok MUST really mean" WWWAAAAYYYY to far.
 

maxben

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FelixG said:
XenonZaleo said:
FelixG said:
Its probably worth noting that the game is made by koreans, where the age of consent is about 13-14 years old. So making a younger looking sexually objectified character would not be as squicky as would be for more western audiences.
Maybe you forgot or somehow weren't paying attention, but most 13-14 year old girls have, in fact, gone though most of the dramatic puberty changes i.e. they have boobs.
To be completely honest I find myself checking out older women, so I wouldn't have any experience in how flat or endowed girls of that age are. Thank you for the lesson though!
Ha!
To be honest, when I first saw my cousin after 4 years of not seeing her (between ages 10 and 14) I actually called her by her sister's name because I was so thrown by the physical changes.

And, by the way, here in Canada it was 14 until the mid-2000s. The does not mean we fetishized little girls. Age of consent and cultural norms are not really the same thing. We try not to create laws based on cultural norms, and laws do not always change cultural norms.

Therumancer said:
Well, for starters this is a non-issue that should have been pretty much banned from geekdom long ago. The idea that women are somehow put off by, or offended by, these depictions of women in fantasy is outright false. Some might be, but they represent a tiny minority. If you've ever paid attention to what female artists and authors produce when aiming at women, it's as "bad" or "worse" than what the guys doing this kind of artwork do.

It's pretty much one of those straw men, where guys generally string up the idea of women being objectified as the reason why there aren't more women around for them to play with, also hoping that by doing so women will be more interested in them for being sensitive. That's really not accurate, and all you really have to do is look at the artwork of female fantasy artists like say Julie Bell, or read how some of the characters dress in say Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series, the "Anita Blake" series, or any of the other diverse "paranormal romance" and "modern fantasy" generes.
Now THAT'S a fallacy if ever I heard one. "Female toys are pink, even women make pink toys for girls, therefore pink toys aren't a problem for women and its ok for all female toys to be pink". Another way to put it: "Aristotle is a man; all men agree that Aristotle is a man; therefore all men should be like Aristotle", this is plainly wrong (my philosophy degree is finally coming to use! I thank you for giving me the opportunity). The point is we all deserve choice, and this was the point of the whole goddamn article. In fact, where do you get the idea that its a "small minority"? You have no objective numbers, just a friend who says things in one way. I can also give you anecdotal evidence to the contrary, which makes your claim a fallacy for a different reason completely.
Another thing that you miss is that maybe some of this is not guys trying to protect girls, but gamers as a community are maturing and they will, slowly, expect more mature-oriented content. I do get unhappy with the teenage/immature adult style because a) It doesn't work for me b) It is clearly not made for children. Since the mean age of gamers is 37 (and here is what a link looks like: http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp), and gamers entering the gaming world are getting younger (you no longer start gaming at 15), who are they selling this crap to? Who does it satisfy if not an INSIGNIFICANT MINORITY?
Lastly, the sexist idea that men are only sensitive when they want to get into a girl's pants is silly and does not even deserve a mention. Surely some do it, but to claim that that's a significant force in the outcry is just as sexist as the juvenile portrayal of women. That is a whol;e tonne of other fallacies (from strawman to begging the question). "Maybe you should consider giving people choice about how to portray their character?" "Maybe you should stop trying to get into women's pants by being sensitive!" I hope you see how the two quotes are unrelated because you assume something (wrong) about our intentions and attempt to attack that instead of the claim itself. Its the same as "We need national healthcare!" with the response "People who believe in national healthcare are communists and Nazis, therefore that proposal is bad"
Then, you throw out another fallacy (which I didn't quote) that because tight outfits made of stretchy material would work better for women in general. At the end of the day, Joan of Arc did NOT fight in a bikini, while native male warriors DID fight in loincloths. So a) that's wrong and b) the fantasy genre allows you to make whatever design choices you want, its not real life. So by making the sexist decision, you have made a sexist decision regardless of weird claims about "real life".
But whatever, I still return to my "choice is good" ideal so you should be able to satisfy teens playing the game (again, a minority of gamers) and the majority of gamers who are not teens, or merely satisfy the majority of gamers.
 

Shia-Neko-Chan

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Bassik said:
Shia-Neko-Chan said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Actually i have heard of Tera, the biggest thing i heard about it is that is basically has a "Scantily Clad Loli" class. No seriosuly look;



Yeahhhh... im not comfortable with whoever designed those. Stay the fuck away from me

Oh, wow. I had no idea that everyone who is short and flat-chested is automatically a child.

Look out Heather, who I met at college and Elizabeth, my co-worker, every boyfriend you guys have ever had are going to jail for being pedophiles, despite you guys being well over 18!

Thanks for opening my eyes!
Short and flat chested does not make you look like a child, looking like a preteen does.

What the hell is wrong with the god damn internet today? I thought this kind of bull was something you'd see on 4chan.
Paedophilia is never okay, I don't care that you talk it all right in your head how these creatures are not really children, you know they look an awful lot like them.

You sick fucks.
Oh please.

pre-teens don't look like anime characters.

The problem isn't with the elin, it's with you. It's your choice to see them as children instead of acknowledge the fact that short people without round breasts exist and it's your choice to not acknowledge them as adults. While you're equating every fictional character without your idea of what a full-grown woman's body should look like with children, I'm going to have fun, because I realize that (adult) people come in all shapes, sizes, and body-types. Perhaps gain a little perspective?
 

-Torchedini-

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The option to play as a naked man ? Please do.

I'm as straight as a spirit level but I would play that just for funzy's.
 

Kahunaburger

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Shia-Neko-Chan said:
Bassik said:
Short and flat chested does not make you look like a child, looking like a preteen does.

What the hell is wrong with the god damn internet today? I thought this kind of bull was something you'd see on 4chan.
Paedophilia is never okay, I don't care that you talk it all right in your head how these creatures are not really children, you know they look an awful lot like them.

You sick fucks.
Oh please.

pre-teens don't look like anime characters.

The problem isn't with the elin, it's with you. It's your choice to see them as children instead of acknowledge the fact that short people without round breasts exist and it's your choice to not acknowledge them as adults. While you're equating every fictional character without your idea of what a full-grown woman's body should look like with children, I'm going to have fun, because I realize that (adult) people come in all shapes, sizes, and body-types. Perhaps gain a little perspective?
This Tera fan:

AppleShrapnel said:
I feel it should be mentioned that the screenshots of the Elin presented earlier aren't accurate to what is seen in the US release; believe it or not, they were somewhat censored. Their tummies are now covered and they all wear hotpants instead of smexy panties... I was disappointed with that, as was the vast majority of Tera's playerbase. Some shielding themselves with the "censorship is bad" or "compromising original assets is an insult to the Korean artists" argument... but as for me, I just wanted scantily-clad loli cat/fox/rabbit girls. /:3

...

But to answer your burning question; people like me love having skin and overall smexy-ness in games because that means if we get switched on while playing, we don't have to alt+tab or exit the game and go to the internet to complete the process. It's like multitasking. And multitasking in almost any form feels pretty awesome. :p
begs to differ.

So, uh, the people who get off to stuff like this (i.e., the target demographic for this character design) see them as children. The execs who put pants on those models for some of the export versions clearly get that sexualization of this type of character will (rightfully) outrage people in a way that sexualizing every other race in the game won't.

So, yeah, Bassik is right.

Bassik said:
What the hell is wrong with the god damn internet today?
 

SajuukKhar

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Kahunaburger said:
begs to differ.

So, uh, the people who get off to stuff like this (i.e., the target demographic for this character design) see them as children. The execs who put pants on those models for some of the export versions clearly get that sexualization of this type of character will (rightfully) outrage people in a way that sexualizing every other race in the game won't.
Actually he said he sees them as lolis.

lolis =/= children.
 

Kahunaburger

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SajuukKhar said:
Kahunaburger said:
begs to differ.

So, uh, the people who get off to stuff like this (i.e., the target demographic for this character design) see them as children. The execs who put pants on those models for some of the export versions clearly get that sexualization of this type of character will (rightfully) outrage people in a way that sexualizing every other race in the game won't.
Actually he said he sees them as lolis.

lolis =/= children.
Wait, what? Please elaborate.