The "Male Power Fantasy": what do women generally and actually find sexy?

[DrOswald]

snip

How about this one?

Spoiler

That one falls into the "too shitty to draw it right" category and an entirely new category of "the pose the woman is in is not unreasonable enough so lets just make up stupid poses and greatly enlarge all the mens' asses." It completely undermines the idea of exposing gender based hypocrisy.

Plus, half of the men are already posed like the comic book woman. Do you really think Hawkeye leaning back and stretching like that is a good pose for archery? It is a pose designed to show off his arms and chest. Same with the Cap. Iron man has this weird half twist motion going on with one leg in the air in front that doesn't make any sort of sense. If he was a woman it would be showing off her breasts. Thor's pose is a pose you often find comic book women in (to show off the long legs and a cleavage shot.) Two of those men are even wearing clothing so tight that it traces the musculature of their chest.

In fact, of all the poses in that particular shot, only black widows and the hulk are realistic poses. The only problem with black widows pose is that she was specifically angled and lit to maximize the effect of her curves. And whatever the hell her left arm is doing.

 

[WindKnight]

I have a question for the female members of this forum.

Spoiler

Those romance covers aren't presented as a 'male power fantasy'. It's not just about the physique. Those men are just standing there, looking pretty and shiny. In some cases you can't even see their face.

And when there is a woman in the picture, it's not focused on showing her body.
Those men are being objectified about as much as a lot of female characters.

Which is not a good thing. Even ignoring objectification, those poses lack personality as much as the generic 'sticking both my boobs and tits out' pose for women does. It tells you nothing about the story (which is not surprising since the pictures probably weren't taken specifically for a book), or the character of the hunky guy.

Well, to be fair, those guys seem to be in fairly comfortable poses that emphasize strength and presence as much as their sexual appeal, their outfits (even when bare chested) consists of more than just a budgie smuggler, and none of them are contorted, showing chests and butt at the same time, or in poses where parts of their body seem tearing or torn away from the rest of their body. For objectification, their still being left with a lot more dignity than agency than objectified women generally are.

 

[WindKnight]

I have a question for the female members of this forum.

Spoiler

Those romance covers aren't presented as a 'male power fantasy'. It's not just about the physique. Those men are just standing there, looking pretty and shiny. In some cases you can't even see their face.

And when there is a woman in the picture, it's not focused on showing her body.
Those men are being objectified about as much as a lot of female characters.

Which is not a good thing. Even ignoring objectification, those poses lack personality as much as the generic 'sticking both my boobs and tits out' pose for women does. It tells you nothing about the story (which is not surprising since the pictures probably weren't taken specifically for a book), or the character of the hunky guy.

Well, to be fair, those guys seem to be in fairly comfortable poses that emphasize strength and presence as much as their sexual appeal, their outfits (even when bare chested) consists of more than just a budgie smuggler, and none of them are contorted, showing chests and butt at the same time, or in poses where parts of their body seem tearing or torn away from the rest of their body. For objectification, their still being left with a lot more dignity and agency than objectified women generally are.

 

[omega 616]

That one falls into the "too shitty to draw it right" category and an entirely new category of "the pose the woman is in is not unreasonable enough so lets just make up stupid poses and greatly enlarge all the mens' asses." It completely undercuts the idea of exposing gender based hypocrisy.

Plus, half of the men are already posed like the comic book woman. Do you really think Hawkeye leaning back and stretching like that is a good pose for archery? It is a pose designed to show off his arms and chest. Same with the Cap. Iron man has this weird half twist motion going on with one leg in the air in front that doesn't make any sort of sense. If he was a woman it would be showing off her breasts. Thor's pose is a pose you often find comic book women in (to show off the long legs and a cleavage shot.) Two of those men are even wearing clothing so tight that it traces the musculature of their chest.

In fact, of all the poses in that particular shot, only black widows and the hulk are realistic poses. The only problem with black widows pose is that she was specifically angled and lit to maximize the effect of her curves. And whatever the hell her left arm is doing.

Well, I really want to see you're drawing skills 'cos it seems anything less than photographic realism, is too shit for you.

Does it not strike you as strange that in the actual movie poster, the only person showing their arse is the female? Doesn't that seem at all strange to you? The redrawn one is meant to be "all the guys showing their arse and the woman not" ... you know, mirroring the actual poster.

You have confused with power with sexuality. Yes, they are showing off muscles but most women don't actually find that attractive. Sexualizing the men would have been bulging pants and athletic builds.

 

[Eamar]

I said it at the time, but I'd have paid serious money to see a gender-swapped version of that Hitman vs BDSM nuns trailer from a couple of years ago. The reaction would have been delicious (and the trailer itself would have been hilarious, obviously)

So the enemies would look like that, right?

[image snip]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of sexy latex Pope costumes or something.

I actually just googled that, but I got nothing. Sad face. And now that's in my internet history. The things I do for the Escapist...

 

[mecegirl]

I said it at the time, but I'd have paid serious money to see a gender-swapped version of that Hitman vs BDSM nuns trailer from a couple of years ago. The reaction would have been delicious (and the trailer itself would have been hilarious, obviously)

So the enemies would look like that, right?

[image snip]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of sexy latex Pope costumes or something.

I actually just googled that, but I got nothing. Sad face. And now that's in my internet history. The things I do for the Escapist...

OMG. I googled "sexy priest costume" and I think I found it.

Spoiler

Though it is interesting that even with that there were still images of "sexy nuns" in the results, and really only one or two that had the men under dressed. The rest were just dudes in priest costumes. That's our culture for you.

Here are the results if anyone wants to see what I mean. https://www.google.com/search?q=sex...=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&imgdii=_

 

[Tom_green_day]

If someone says 'X is not equal to Y' when they blatantly are, the correct and polite response is 'would you kindly leave and fuck yourself?'
People find people of the other sex attractive, I thought we figured that one out sometime before the invention of the wheel? It's not exactly rocket science.

 

[Eamar]

OMG. I googled "sexy priest costume" and I think I found it.

Spoiler

I think I love you XD

Though it is interesting that even with that there were still images of "sexy nuns" in the results, and really only one or two that had the men under dressed. That's our culture for you.

Yeah, I noticed that in my own search...

 

[white_wolf]

Ever heard of the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a project where people take artwork of female characters and then draw a male superhero (usually Hawkeye) in the same pose. It really highlights how blatant and ridiculous the whole situation it. Check it out.

I've heard about the issue with comics, but since I don't read them very often I didn't have much of a basis for comparison. That website makes it quite clear at how silly many of the poses are, but I have to admit I laughed a lot at some of those pictures.

OT: I've always wondered if there is a female equivalent to the male power fantasy. I think this gets overlooked a lot whenever this question of objectification and male power fantasies come up. I wouldn't expect a female empowerment fantasy to necessarily be a power fantasy like it is for males. For men the fantasy is usually about idealizing the things that typically define masculinity (strength, physical fitness, stoicism, martial and/or sexual conquest, etc.), but what would a fantasy that appeals to women based on what it is to be a woman be like? I honestly can't even begin to guess. Would it be a fantasy about being the ultimate ideal of femininity? Not likely, given that from what I understand most of the standards for being feminine are dictated by men. Otherwise the classic Disney Princess thing (tiny waist, quiet demeanor, fancy dresses, makeup, and a mission to be nothing more than a baby factory for a prince) would be the ultimate equivalent of the male power fantasy, and just about all of the women I know would take issue with that.

So I guess my question isn't actually the same as the OP's, mine is more along the lines of what would be the sort of fantasy that appeals to a woman the same way as male power fantasy appeals to a man?

Captcha: "Which one is the hottest?" Well played, captcha.

Which is great to ask. When I ask myself or other friends whats your version of a heroine or fem power fantasy and usually its a blank stare for several seconds because really we aren't given that or taught to think like that (we can be heros) early on your idea of being that super hero can be taken away because its all guys all the time, cheesy girl power because we're women (or a gang of friends forever) and draw magical powers from that sole fact, or girls acting just like the guys, she's only strong becasue she trying to gain the man's love (or save the child) and stops once that happens and becomes average Jane so inbetween all that what is the average girls powerful hero? It hasn't been presented consistently or well yet we have individuals that can be powerful but a whole movie just making the women walkaway feel like they're powerful and awesome no and most of me and my circle will come back with the same things we've been shown todate I want a strong woman who can lift a 400lb guy over his head so she can take on anyone in her way of the goal, not be very muscular like China, yet dressed for her role not inverse armor or stupid holloween costume, who is taken seriously, who is respected like the guys in an automatic sort of way she walks in the room and no one should be like what's she doing at our meeting of stop X? It should be she walks in and all eyes and ears go to her for what should we do hero like the guys.

Or are we so use to idolizing men or plainly seeing them in hereo capable roles in all forums of media that its only natural we go with what we know and insert girl and give her a want for fashion or kids ontop of it? Women also tend to underestimate or underscore their own abilities so even when they do great things they just down play it a great example women during the civil war disguised themselves fought and died in nearly every major war and people knew about this the papers had monthly news articles across the country detailing the ones who got caught or ones who were so great yet got caught they couldn't deny the deed so talked about their bravery so it wasn't like the notion was being suppressed it was a noticeable and out there thing but what did many of them do after winning or losing the war ? They didn't go petition for their vet benefits, very few wrote books on their experiences, they just went home back home to reassume their former lives. Very few went so far as to prove their assumed identities for the veterans payout. So many I know would do the same because society expects us to just not have such wants. So what would be a power fantasy that appeals to a large amount of women and isn't always about rescue the kid or I just want the man to love me? that geared for them specifically with a fem lead Thats going to require time, trial and error, asking the question, maybe even different examples put out there then what we now have, and deep thought to separate programming from the inner person what do they want as consumers and people vs what the world tells them they want in a super heroine.

 

[DrOswald]

That one falls into the "too shitty to draw it right" category and an entirely new category of "the pose the woman is in is not unreasonable enough so lets just make up stupid poses and greatly enlarge all the mens' asses." It completely undercuts the idea of exposing gender based hypocrisy.

Plus, half of the men are already posed like the comic book woman. Do you really think Hawkeye leaning back and stretching like that is a good pose for archery? It is a pose designed to show off his arms and chest. Same with the Cap. Iron man has this weird half twist motion going on with one leg in the air in front that doesn't make any sort of sense. If he was a woman it would be showing off her breasts. Thor's pose is a pose you often find comic book women in (to show off the long legs and a cleavage shot.) Two of those men are even wearing clothing so tight that it traces the musculature of their chest.

In fact, of all the poses in that particular shot, only black widows and the hulk are realistic poses. The only problem with black widows pose is that she was specifically angled and lit to maximize the effect of her curves. And whatever the hell her left arm is doing.

Well, I really want to see you're drawing skills 'cos it seems anything less than photographic realism, is too shit for you.

Does it not strike you as strange that in the actual movie poster, the only person showing their arse is the female? Doesn't that seem at all strange to you? The redrawn one is meant to be "all the guys showing their arse and the woman not" ... you know, mirroring the actual poster.

You have confused with power with sexuality. Yes, they are showing off muscles but most women don't actually find that attractive. Sexualizing the men would have been bulging pants and athletic builds.

They do not need to be photo realistic. They need to be shaped like an actual person for this to work. I assumed the artist made them chibies with greatly exagerated proportions and completely made up poses (which are, by the way, far far worse than that original BW pose) because they were unable to do it properly. The whole point of the hawkeye project it to show gender based hypocrisy by swapping poses. To do that you need to be able to actually draw the pose that the woman was in in a similar style. But I suppose it is possible that the artist just completely missed the point.

Also, most women don't find that sort of thing attractive? I know half a dozen women personally who would beg to differ. My wife especially loves to talk with her sisters about how hot Thor is without his shirt. Not to mention that this post was started with a large collection of photos of men designed explicitly to titillate women by other women. The over arcing theme of those pictures was not bulging packages or male booty, it was well muscled and toned chests. This sort of thing certainly does appeal to women.

And no, I don't find it strange that the woman is the only one showing her ass. You get Scarlet Johansen for her ass. You get Chris Evans, Jeremy Renner, and Chris Hemsworth for their excellently toned and muscled chests. Mainstream female sex appeal is primarily focused on breasts, ass, and legs. Mainstream male sex appeal focuses on arms, chest and abs.

 

[mecegirl]

Yeah, I noticed that in my own search...

And basically stuff like that is why people are more adamant about discouraging over sexualization of female characters. The rate at which women and men are sexulized in American culture are hardly equal. So of course folks are more sensitive when it happens to one gender/sex than the other. I mean, how is it that while looking for images of sexualized men I still get bombarded with images of sexualized women? It's even worse that technically it's religious imagery that has been sexlized, but still overwhelmingly for the women.

 

[MrMan999]

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a bit of cheesecake or beefcake. My main problem is when the characters showing off have nothing else to their characters besides being sexy. You wanna make a seductress character? Fine, just don't make being a seductress her only character trait. Give her a motivation, a personality.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Spoiler: Video

This is amazing.
That video totally justified me reading this entire thread.
I wish I could move like that, I actually cannot stop watching it.

 

[omega 616]

snip

They are drawn to look like female comic book characters, exaggerated assets! They are far, far worse 'cos they are how most female characters are drawn! That is the whole point, bigger muscles and asses than normal (like females in comics have bigger asses and boobs) and in poses like those of females in comics.

Not to mention people don't want to put in a couple of hundred hours to perfectly recreate a scene, they are getting the point across with varying degrees of artistic skill.

Yes, Thor without his shirt is sexy ... I am talking about Mr universe isn't sexy. Thor is muscular but athletic and not some bicep on legs.

You just can't see Thor's, Iron man's or really any of captain America's muscles (you can see his arm all Bruce Lee like) and lets be honest, Hulk is just a muscle. Can you see Black Widow's ass? You can almost read the label on her panties! Not to mention the mother of all side boob!

 

[Phasmal]

Spoiler: Video

This is amazing.
That video totally justified me reading this entire thread.
I wish I could move like that, I actually cannot stop watching it.

I know, right?
It's hypnotic and amazing.
The video is a gift and must be shared.
First time I saw this I was like

 

[DrOswald]

snip

They are drawn to look like female comic book characters, exaggerated assets! They are far, far worse 'cos they are how most female characters are drawn! That is the whole point, bigger muscles and asses than normal (like females in comics have bigger asses and boobs) and in poses like those of females in comics.

And I never said that female characters are not drawn in ridiculously impractical poses for sex appeal. In fact, I specifically said they are. But drawing the men like this, in this intentional deformed style, completely strips the idea of all meaning.

And female character in comic books don't have circle asses that look like someone tapped balloons to their butt.

And, last of all, the images specifically asks about the men in this specific image posed like the woman in this specific image, which it does not do. If you exaggerate you ruin the message.

Not to mention people don't want to put in a couple of hundred hours to perfectly recreate a scene, they are getting the point across with varying degrees of artistic skill.

To which I would say if you can't do it don't do it. I would love to take a stab at doing this but I know my ability to draw is not up to the task. I might try in private, but if it isn't good I am not going to post it. If a person isn't capable enough to successfully communicate the idea then maybe they should refrain from diluting the message made by those who are capable. Like I said initially, people are putting men in thongs instead of actually drawing it right and that is confusing the message. Instead of highlighting how women are more often sexualized they highlight how we are deeply uncomfortable with male sexual imagery.

Especially when the entire idea is to accurately recreate the scene with a gender swap.

Yes, Thor without his shirt is sexy ... I am talking about Mr universe isn't sexy. Thor is muscular but athletic and not some bicep on legs.

Ok, then why did you bring it up? I am talking about the men in that image, specifically Hawkeye and cap. They clearly fall into the muscular but athletic camp if Thor, the most built of them all, does. I never tried to claim the hulk was being sexualized. What was your point?

You just can't see Thor's, Iron man's or really any of captain America's muscles (you can see his arm all Bruce Lee like) and lets be honest, Hulk is just a muscle. Can you see Black Widow's ass? You can almost read the label on her panties! Not to mention the mother of all side boob!

Cap is wearing clothing so tight that you can see every single rib and muscle. Hawkeye is bare armed and wearing leather that hugs his body so tight you can see the definition of his pectorals. Thor's arms are covered in scalemail so form fitting it shows off his muscle definition as well as skintight latex would. They are all posed in such a way to maximize the focus on those areas that are seen as mainstream sexy. They are posed like the woman - posed to maximize titillation without going into actual softcore territory.

 

[Darkmantle]

Snip

Oh, it isn't. I was just confused that's all!
Anyways...
One female character having breasts that are rather large doesn't influence people. When a MAJORITY of them do it becomes a problem, because not all women have breasts that big. When women are treated as objects (Hence the term objectification) in a majority of a media, it reenforces the idea that it's OKAY to treat women like that because unlike with violence, it isn't unrealistic enough that people can instantly tell that it's wrong.

Quotes don't seem to be working, didn't notify me for some reason :/

Anyway, the problem is that developers are often put in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. The best example is the latest Tomb Raider game. The devs took people's complaints about how over-sexualized lara was to heart, and so reduced aforementioned breast size and made her proportions more realistic. Literally the very day that news reached this very website, people were losing it on the forums. "what, so women with big breast don't exist? they're not real people? Is that what you are saying Tomb Raider devs?" I should note that this was before the trailer and all the other controversies that game faced (one of which being too much focus on violence ironically enough) so that can't even be used to excuse this reaction.

I wish I was kidding, I really do. What were they supposed to do in that situation? Either they leave Lara unrealistically proportioned, and face sexism/objectification complaints, or they make her more average and get a chorus of "are you saying women with big breasts aren't real people?". It's just so silly.


Secondly, even when the depictions are hyper unrealistic (see dragon's crown controversy) People still freak out at the developers. It sends the message that over exaggerated characters such as that should be totally banned/not allowed. Now this is the part where all kinds of people tell me that's not what they want, they just want more equal and varied representation, etc etc. But I'm just saying that's not how it seems. In my opinion, a better way to go about this is with positivity. Praise good depictions of women, encourage more of them, discuss how best to include women in games.

The problem with this hyper focus on negative examples, is that no one is explaining how to do it right. Just saying WRONG WRONG WRONG over and over again is not encouraging progress. I can guarantee you that it's just leaving people frustrated and annoyed at these complaints and issues.




This is more of a personal note down here, but I have a problem with the term objectification, or at least how it's been used recently, I feel it's being used far too broadly and inaccurately. For example, people have said (and do say) to me all the time that the damsel in distress trope objectifies women. From my understanding (and your own explanation above) objectification is when you treat a person like, or reduce a person to, an object (hence the term). But I promise you, that if Bowser had stolen Mario's wrist watch, he wouldn't have braved those 8 levels to hunt it down. If Ganondorf had captured Link's Pocket change, he wouldn't have charged into untold numbers of dungeons to get it back. Objects are easily replaceable, and often expendable. These heroes and others like them, would not have gone so far to rescue a replaceable object, they were compelled to go after an irreplaceable person in their lives. I'd argue it would be objectification if the Hero just found another woman instead, would it not?

Now you can argue that the damsel in distress trope dis-empowers women (and I'd likely agree), but that is not the same as reducing them to an object. It's a very fine distinction that I find people just completely ignore.