The "Male Power Fantasy": what do women generally and actually find sexy?

Ariseishirou

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BigTuk said:
Ariseishirou said:
BigTuk said:
That's a hard question to answer, mostly because women will rarely give straight answers due to the whole social acceptability bias. She will usually give the 'proper' answer.

--biological reductionism ad absurdum, evo psych woo woo, nature uber alles, what is society?!?--
Yes, I said that women like attractive faces and a variety of body types because that's the socially acceptable answer. Not because women like attractive faces and a variety of body types. *epic facepalm*
Define: 'attractive'

Attractive is a subjective term and what one finds attractive can shift just about as readily as what one considers to be tasty or relaxing. It's based on mood. I'd also look up 'Social Acceptability Bias' so you understand the term.

Ask 100 people if they think stealing is wrong.. 80 will say yes. Leave these same people in a room for a moment unattended with a $20 bill on the ground and couple cookies in a jar and in 60-70 of the time you will find either one or more cookies and /or that $20 missing.

SAB pretty much demonstrates the discontinuity between what a person says and how they act, and it's tendency to steer towards answering within socially acceptable norms of ones peer-groups or superiors. What people say and do around strangers is different that what they'd say or do alone.
Huh, interesting. I thought for certain that a man touting absolute biological reductionism in what defines "attractive" for a woman would be aware that there are a number of human universals in what constitutes an attractive face, such as symmetry and youthful proportions.

Or should I not be surprised, because that indicates that women are primarily interested in the health/virility of a partner (just as men are interested in the health/fertility of their partner) as opposed to the "protector/provider" narrative you're shilling here.

Seems you have some reading to do, comrade!
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Darkmantle said:
objectification is when you treat a person like, or reduce a person to, an object (hence the term). But I promise you, that if Bowser had stolen Mario's wrist watch, he wouldn't have braved those 8 levels to hunt it down. If Ganondorf had captured Link's Pocket change, he wouldn't have charged into untold numbers of dungeons to get it back. Objects are easily replaceable, and often expendable.
the point is it doesnt matter who Peach is....she only exists purley as a motivator for Mario...change it to a watch it would be exactly the same, peach herself adds nothing

ot female charachters getting killed so the male ones can go in a rage

or female charachters existing to further the charachter developemnt on the male ones...that kind of thing
 

Johnny Impact

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Eamar said:
the character's motivations and reasons for existing (for example, female characters are often the token love interest - they only exist so the male lead can get some)
I noticed that. I'm playing Mass Effect right now for the first time. I had this awful moment where I realized there were two women on the ship, they were both hot, and they both wanted to jump me. It took me right out of the immersion as I realized half their dialog could be summed up as "we'll be boning at some point." Captain Kirk never had it so good.

It made me think BioWare missed an opportunity by not having, say, a female turian who was romantically interested in Shepard. When the blue-skinned space babe is replaced by something more alien, suddenly things get rather awkward. Dodging the amorous advances of (or, perhaps, saying hell with it and having sex with) a seven-foot lizard with skin like a cheese grater and a voice like a thirty-year smoker would have been more memorable to me than jumping in the sack with the token Barbie-doll love interest. Maybe I'm just weird.

OT: Can't find the story, but a few months ago I read the results of a study. A bunch of guys of all appearances were dressed alike and photographed. Women were shown just the pictures and asked to rate each guy 1 to 10. Predictably, the muscular, chisel-jawed "bad boys" received top ranks, with a couple of pudgy, glasses-wearing types falling at 4 or lower. Then each man was given a fictitious job and annual income. More women were asked to rate each guy: same pictures, only now with money a factor. What was found was that income played a HUGE role in determining each man's rating. The stud-muffin, now working at the local car wash, was suddenly only a 5; the dorky, unimposing record company executive making $3M/year rocketed up to 9.5.

In other words, women want money, then looks.

I realize it was a limited experiment that could not measure what types of personality women do or do not find attractive. Nevertheless, as a sub-average-looking guy making not very much, I found it incredibly depressing.
 

Smeatza

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Eamar said:
While I see where you're coming from, it's important to realise that you can talk about a male power fantasy (for example) without implying that it's the male power fantasy or that no non-males share it or anything like that. If we never made any generalisations we'd never be able to discuss anything, after all.
Well surely we shouldn't be trying to apply these highly generalised concepts to individual cases then.
Surely that makes any comment like "this game is a male power fantasy," "this game is a female sexual fantasy" or "that's not what a male power fantasy/female sexual fantasy is" to be inaccurate on some level and therefore ultimately incorrect.

I understand that you have to make generalisations for any political discussion but this is just too much for me.
This isn't economic or ethical policy we're generalising, it's not even a particular political group.
It's entire genders and their highly personal fantasies we're generalising, it's people.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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SOCIALCONSTRUCT said:
1. don't call it whining ok? no seriously...just don't

2. youre creating a false premise here [i/]oh well people will "whine" about it forever so really we should just stop ackowledging its a problem and carry on[/i]

3.I'm going to assume that youre not on the receiving end of the objectification thing and no....for most male charachters its not the same, it happens but not ont he same scale
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Pluvia said:
Less Kratos and Marcus Fenix and more DmC Dante's and Nathan Drake's.
nathan drake....ughhh ughhh UGHHHH GOD NO GET THAT SHITHEAD AWAY FROM-

....whoa ok that was weird..sorry

DMC dante is a little jerk as well soo...yeah
 

EeveeElectro

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Aug 3, 2008
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While I personally wouldn't date a powerfully built man, I can be attracted to them. It's definitely not what I go for.
Maybe it's because I'm out of shape too so I'd just feel like a whale next to him but I avoid bulked up men. I always think they're looking down at me for not going to the gym or eating perfectly.

What I do go for is a variant. For love and relationship purposes, I love a little belly on them and some extra meat to cuddle.
For sexual purposes, I would have the best looking guy I can find who was interested in me and they're usually on the skinny end of the scale or in quite good shape. The only problem is they make God-awful boyfriends but the sex was always gooooooooooood. I seem to lust after just good looking men, but not so much over the grossly out of shape ones. I've been surprised how good looking some of my sexual partners have been and none of them were brick shithouses.
 

Jenvas1306

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Im not really attracted to just physical things so much, but I dont like guys who are too skinny and I sure dont like the super toned type. A sixpack just looks kinda weird to me, then rather a belly from enjoying life, and hair, all those blank chests look kinda lacking to me.
But what makes me notice a guy is more how he presents himself and in the long run what gets me attracted is personality. I have indeed a thing for nice guys (thats guys who are actually nice, not those that just play that to get into someones pants), guys who deserve better than life gives them, Im weird like that.
I cant really think of a male character from a game who'd fit that, but I really liked Daniel Jackson from stargate SG1.
 

Darkmantle

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Vault101 said:
Darkmantle said:
objectification is when you treat a person like, or reduce a person to, an object (hence the term). But I promise you, that if Bowser had stolen Mario's wrist watch, he wouldn't have braved those 8 levels to hunt it down. If Ganondorf had captured Link's Pocket change, he wouldn't have charged into untold numbers of dungeons to get it back. Objects are easily replaceable, and often expendable.
the point is it doesnt(sic) matter who Peach is....she only exists purley(sic) as a motivator for Mario...change it to a watch it would be exactly the same, peach herself adds nothing

ot(sic) female charachters(sic) getting killed so the male ones can go in a rage

or female charachters(sic) existing to further the charachter(sic) developemnt(sic) on the male ones...that kind of thing
The problem is that can be said of a ton of characters and story conventions.

It doesn't matter who Bowser is, he exists only as an antagonist for Mario to beat, change it to a different antagonist (see SMB2) and what changes? Bowser himself adds nothing.

It doesn't matter who the koopa's are, they serve only as an obstacle to be overcome, no different than a pit or wall. Change it to a different thing (say "shy guys") and what changes?

This is not a strong enough reason for me to believe that it's devaluing women as a whole, or even the character of Princess Peach. As I said before, change it to a watch and Mario would just buy a new one, not go after it.

I don't understand your metric for good character, many characters no one has any complaints about serve primarily to further the character development of the protagonist. Obi-wan's death. Yoda's training. Those 2 characters served little more than character development enablers for Luke. I fail to see this as a gendered issue, it's ubiquitous in story telling.
 

FrankatronX

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Hah!

I love this. I love this conversation. Had it many times. Keep on having it since it's so much fun.

Alright. Let's get cracking. I love life and all it's wonderous hazards but that means that we must face up to some unkind and unfair stuff at times. Mostly to do with us being Human. That means dealing with the animal. The great part of this is all of you are right in some way, shape or form.

Of course the menstrual cycle plays a part in what Women find attractive, take it as written Men have their own set of hormone related influences as well.
Yes there are similarities to Female and Male power fantasies, this is because they are both subsets of Human power fantasies if they were distinct and separate then we would not be the same species would we? (rhetorical).
Objectification happens and in a perfect world we'd all be asinine. Years of cultural exposure have effected us all in ways we'd like to think can be easily fixed but that's a lie. To embrace a truly equal society with no gender bias or stereotyping at all furthers us naught.
It's very easy to judge others from a seat of imagined superiority. If you KNOW what you are talking about in terms of objectification then you must know that this entire conversation has a very specific purpose. To educate and discuss the topic.

This topic was initially on what do Women find attractive in men physically? Which is entirely a topic of taste, free from ridicule or judgement because it's taste. It warrants no contradiction and needs no explanation.
However Takeshi Kaneshiro is the perfect male specimen... like hot damn!
 

Yuno Gasai

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Nov 6, 2010
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MEN IN SUITS ARE THE SEXIEST THING EVER. ANY MAN. IN A SUIT.

*ahem*

I don't really have a type - I don't look for specific qualities in a man I want to date, because I'd rather look for mutual interests and a good connection than anything else.

That being said, there are certain physical qualities I find myself inexplicably attracted to. Like men with flippy hair, men with piercings, men with tattoos... I am a big fan of the "alternative" look. Though I also love me some geeks. Glasses are hot on everyone. <3

I am much more inclined to be inexplicably attracted to men who exude confidence. Confidence is sexy. Knowing what you want is even sexier. Nothing turns me off faster than my man expecting me to make every single decision. (If I knew what I wanted to do, I would have told you. Simple.)

But, I digress.

TL;DR - I don't have a specific type, but some things make me happier than others.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Darkmantle said:
I don't understand your metric for good character, many characters no one has any complaints about serve primarily to further the character development of the protagonist. Obi-wan's death. Yoda's training. Those 2 characters served little more than character development enablers for Luke. I fail to see this as a gendered issue, it's ubiquitous in story telling.
It doesn't matter how dumb peach being an inanimate object would be as far as motivation goes, it still wouldn't change anything as peach does nothing (and given the lighthearted tone of the games mario going to get his prized watch back doesn't seem like a stretch...but I digress)

the only point you've made here is that "peach is a GOOD motivational object" she's still an object

Mario is light on the narrative but there are still some things to be found, Bowser through his actions and motivations (god knows what they are t this point) drives the plot...he fucks shit up for the mushroom kingdom . HE DOES THINGS and from what we know he he's a bit if a jerk but it's almost endearing, I'm sure there's more you could get from 20 years worth of games...mario himself clearly has some kind of niave cheerful determination, we all know he does things, the goobas and koopas are just minions sure, but they provide an obstacle, they do things

Peach does nothing, who she us or what she wants us utterly irrelevant to anything

in the case if obj wan the "mentor dying" is DEFINETLY a thing no doubt, and characters dying and subsequently furthering another charachers development isn't inherited bad, it's just that it's something that happens to old people and women than other types if charachers...in super hero comics it actually has a name "women in refrigerators" which goes to show how much if a thing it is
 

Ten Foot Bunny

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Mar 19, 2014
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Yuno Gasai said:
MEN IN SUITS ARE THE SEXIEST THING EVER. ANY MAN. IN A SUIT.
Mhm... yum!

Personally, I find intelligence sexy. I find grammar sexy. A man's desire to laugh and have fun is sexy. A man who says the most random crap that makes me think of the world in new ways is dead sexy.

Any man who thinks he needs to "prove" that he's a man? Well, he just bought a one-way ticket back to Singleville.

----------------

Oh, and I think AlphaOmegaSin is fucking gorgeous. ;)

 

Saetha

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flying_whimsy said:
Well, first of all, there's a difference between power fantasy and what a woman actually wants to do with their life. I mean, you can probably find plenty of guys that dig Uncharted and God of War, but they're not going to go "Yeah, man, I totally want to a be disgraced deity and murder the Greek pantheon! Gonna get my Bachelor's next year!" A female power fantasy, necessarily, wouldn't be about, say, running a board room of becoming a doctor. It's highly unlikely to, actually. Power fantasies are all about escapism, usually into another realm. Why would anyone want to escape here?

In my experience (Which is to say, my experience of reading novels upon novels of female-authored fanfiction on Bioware games) I'd say there is a very clear "female power fantasy" that pops up a lot in works where women are the authors and are given creative freedom. I can't get too detailed, mostly because I'm not a scholar and I haven't gone looking, it's just traits I often see appear with female protagonists, but they often follow a "tough on the outside, soft on the in" sort of style - Said woman will calmly accept her duty and go on her journey and seem perfectly fine with it, but will show a softer side, either in private by herself, or to her prospective love interest. There's definitely still a theme of stoicism, but not quite the same way it shows up in the male power fantasy. The stoicism is less to fool the reader and more to fool the other characters in the narrative. There's usually a heavy focus on friends, and the rom com stereotype of "Sassy best friend" is very much present in a lot of fanfic. While there often is violence, it's nowhere near to the extent or as much of a focus as it is in, say, video games. There's almost always romance, even if the focus of the story is something else entirely. And these things usually follow a clear path, too - female protagonist will run into hot guy and spend much time describing his hotness (Expect words like striking, brilliant, shining, and other words bizarrely related to illumination) Here, the romance usually takes one of two paths - guy and girl hit it off right away and quickly become best friends, then lovers. Ooor guy does or says something to upset girl and much of the story is based around him being a bumbling idiot and having to make that up to her - and it's always the guy who's the bumbling idiot. The protagonist almost never screws up her romance, or is to blame with an obstacle to it, unless it's an emotional obstacle like overcoming grief from a previous lover. But while the guy will often unintentionally screws up, he will almost never purposely screw up (Or be otherwise selfish in the relationship) In the instances where he does, him overcoming this and making it up to the protagonist will also become a big focus.

As for the violence side... well, there usually just isn't much time spent on it. Typically it advances the plot, or otherwise it's just there to ensure to the reader that, yes, they fought. The protagonist probably will be awesome with whatever fighting style she has, but this is rarely actually important. A lot of the female power fantasy seems to revolve around social power - wooing the love interest, making friends, turning enemies to one's side. That sort of thing. When a character is shown explicitly hating the protagonist, they're often evil, or eventually brought around to liking them.

Now me, personally, I find many female protagonists, even those written by women, to be bland and whiny, so perhaps I'm not the best to describe it here. All I know is that there's very much a bigger emphasis on relationships, and female protagonists are rarely displayed as being in the wrong when it comes to such matters, especially romance.
 

Saetha

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Now, to the OP: Oh dear God. You... want me to explain what I find in men attractive? Oh dear God.

Heh, well, alrighty then. I'll start off by jumping in head first - I've got a massive bad ass fetish. Even if the character has a usually timid or shy personality, caring for something enough to wreck the other guy's shit for it is... pretty great. Characters that occupy some level of command are usually very attractive - a prince, a general, a chief. Again, even if they don't have a commanding personality, there's something about holding a position of power that's just... A great sense of humor is a must, I don't know how to deal with people who I don't find funny, especially if they think they're hilarious. A dash of moral ambiguity is actually very hot, assuming they don't go full-on Vader or something, but a steely sense of honor and justice works too. Intelligence, even if it's never used. From here, I have two general types that sort of branch off and vary wildly from each other.

Type 1: Shy, boyish, but still very sweet. Think Alistair from Dragon Age, or in terms of Disney Princes, think Shang from Mulan. Typically lacking a bit in confidence, but that's alright. Kind and gentle and generally a good guy. I call this the "Nice Guy" type and yes, it leads to a lot of confusion with the other "nice guy" type.

Type 2: Powerful, not necessarily in terms of rank or position, because even street rat types can occupy this, but in terms of their ability to get shit done. Generally stoic and cold, but with a warm and loving nature beneath. Always morally ambiguous, and even being a generally selfish character won't work against them, assuming there's a limit and they don't mistreat their friends/love interest. This type is heavily connected to how they get shit done - physical prowess is nice, but what I generally prefer over it is an ability to scheme and manipulate, or think on the fly. Intelligence and cleverness over sheer strength. I call this the "Evil genius" type. Think Tarvek Sturmvoraus, or Flynn Rider.

My tastes in physical appearance are all over the map, really, so I can't be much help there. But I do recognize that I have a very strong preference when it comes to personality. Needless to say, those two personality types show up rather frequently in my own writing, though usually in different variations, and to different degrees. Also, an interesting note about type two is how many of the standard video game protagonists toe that line. All of them usually exhibit a stoic nature and determination, but with some measure of warmth beneath. All of them are powerful in one way or another. Quite a few exhibit intelligence. A lot are morally ambiguous. Maybe that's why I haven't got a problem with the saturation of these guys in video games - I'm too busy fantasizing about 'em.

Johnny Impact said:
When the blue-skinned space babe is replaced by something more alien, suddenly things get rather awkward. Dodging the amorous advances of (or, perhaps, saying hell with it and having sex with) a seven-foot lizard with skin like a cheese grater and a voice like a thirty-year smoker
Wait 'till the sequel. He's not seven feet but, uh... yeah.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Apr 25, 2013
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soh45400 said:
ENOUGH
Now I will reveal my nationality and why I hate this kind of shit so much. I am a Pakistani.
Watch ANY TV show in Pakistan and you will see that 99% of them are aimed at women ONLY. Americans have one Lifetime channel, imagine ALL channels being like that then turning to another country's programming to see stuff that is actually aimed at your gender and then find people criticizing it all the time while those channels you so despise get a free pass.
The only shows aimed at men in Pakistan are sports and news talk shows(I am not talking aboout Jon Stewert-like stuff, I am talking Hard Talk made by much less compitent people and featuring much more corrupt politicians). I hate both.

I only remember ONE Pakistani show that was aimed at men, "Sub Set Hai" in the late 1990s and earlt 2000s. This was the first and last show of its kind and even it jumped headlong into the idiot men stuff and the three main leads were basically Bart Simpsons that couldn't even pass BCOM. But it was something and was the first show that showed almost true Karachi youth street culture.

You want to know what female power fantasy is search HUM channel, GEO TV(NOT GEO NEWS), ARY Digital. And you can get these channels or some of their shows online perhaps with subtitles. All of them either demonize men, have multiple men fighting over the same woman and most promote spending millions or even billions of Rupees on weddings. The same is true of Pakistani advertizing, its either all aimed at women or young children, nothing for men. And my sisters and mother love this stuff and I have to listen to it right in the next room.
THAT IS FEMALE POWER FANTASY.
If you can take out hours of your lives arguing over this shit then you can take out a few hours to learn some Urdu and find and watch those shows and see the gender-flipped media you are so desperate for, you will love it.
PM me and I will even name some shows and resources.

AND PLEASE PLEASE LET ME ENJOY STUFF THAT ACTUALLY IS FOR MEN.
PS: This is just for media only, the rest of feminism stuff. I am actually on your side for that. Just please allow market segmentation for media, it will NOT deter your cause at all.
I see, It's understandable that you would be pissed (I sure would be) and what you described may actually be horrible in the reverse direction. So I guess the issue is how to balance them out? In my last post, I stated that the issue, at least with games, is more the lack of ground or realistic women; put another way, we have more body types for men in games than women. I wonder if you think this is true.

I also want to comment on your opinion of market segmentation. Market segmentation is always going to happen because of demographics and focus groups but having balanced representations of women is not a bad thing and would do both genders well.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Apr 25, 2013
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Sonichu said:
Izanagi009 said:
In my last post, I stated that the issue, at least with games, is more the lack of ground or realistic women
Let me repeat my (ignored) answer ton your last post, then!

Izanagi009 said:
With females (at least in gaming) however, most female body designs are generally the same: thin, tall, breasts either too large or too small (covers both bases). Personality representation is not good either: some have characters as too meek and timid and need a hero or someone to help them (bad in the age in which we attempt gender equality) or extremely forward and sexual(Morrigan from Darksiders, this is problematic in its own right since I'm doubtful that a significant portion are like that). So we have extremes of what is considered attractive with no real middle or realistic ground.
It's Darkstalkers, not "Darksiders". How do you except A SUCCUBUS PRINCESS to look and act like to not be "problematic"? And whatever would be a "real middle or realistic ground" for A SUCCUBUS PRINCESS in a cartoonish video game?

Also, why do you think she's so popular among cosplayers? And so popular in general?

Oh, and you also have Lilith, her alter-ego / split personality / sister thing. And yes, "breasts ... too small". Oh my god, real world succubis apparently can't relate to such unrealistic, PROBLEMATIC succubis in video games! But at least human women can:



These real world women who are cosplaying a cartoonish lesbian sex demon queen are not "realistic" with their body builds too, I guess. There are no "thin, tall" women with "too large" breasts and no short girls with "too small" breasts in real world, they only exist in video games.

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2013/098/5/8/morrigan_x_lilith_cosplay_3_by_sntp-d60whgn.jpg

^women oppressed by "unrealistic" video games
Body extremes can and will always exist in the real world but think of it this way, How many types of male bodies are there in gaming compared to women. The amount of male body types compared to women gaming types are higher compared to women. Do you honestly think that just because people can cosplay one of the extremes that the extremes exist in a significant amount in the real world.

You apparently don't know about the existence of a bell curve. Women on both extremes will exist but I don't think every women are a or d cups.

I will admit my error with the game's name and perhaps I should have used a different example (Makoto from blazblue might work, seriously that underboob).

I still think you miss the point though, media can and will have sexualized characters but the majority of the world is not full of sexualized charcters so for the sake of better stories, a bit less fanservice would be nice.