The coelacanths are not a single species but rather an order, like bats, rodents or primates. The first known coelacanth species appeared 400myo and died out 360myo. The two coelacanth species living today diverged 40myo. Between 400myo and today, at least sixty species of coelacanth have appeared and subsequently died out, most lasting no more than 30 million years each.marfin_ said:If it is "impossible" for change to happen over the course of millions of years, the why has the fish Coelacanth been living with very little change since it's fossil ancestors during te Paleozoic Era, which btw was about 350 million years ago?sergnb said:We are talking about millions of years here. Millions-of-years. Do you seriously believe that in that time, some drastical change is impossible to have happened?
Whose response was that?darkstarangel said:Because yours is the most reasonable response ill reply to yours.
What are you talking about?Basically all are observed with limitations to 5 & 8.
What's your issue too?darkstarangel said:LOL thats my issue too
There's a button on each post, labelled "quote".BTW sorry I still havent figured out how to quote yet. Forum posters must be getting a bit confused by now.
You are right, we can't truly prove anything from the past. Like the Romans for instance, all we have to go on are these old bits of pottery and coins and ancient buildings, they could be anything. It's very unlikely that they are the result of an advanced society of people living thousands of years ago. That stuff was more likely just put there by magic.Sadly the hubris of many wont accept that we cant truly know & instead promote their theories as a fact.
Personally Im a Creationist out of convenience & this is plausible since you cant truly prove anything from the past.
We may not know how it evolved (whatever "it" is), but since we have good evidence for how a lot of other things evolved, and no evidence for any alternative, it's reasonable to assume that "it" did evolve unless you have evidence to the contrary. ("It looks irriducibly complex" is not evidence.)Im happy to accept that 'God dunnit' but I wanna know how he done it. But its happening on the other spectrum too with 'Evolution dunnit'. Dont tell me it evolved tell me how it evolved.
This. A million times this.Olrod said:Also, you need to quote this evidence. Please. If you have ANY evidence that *disproves* evolution, Science REALLY REALLY wants to know it, you'll be famous and win a Nobel prize!darkstarangel said:Its out of the evidence that I use to reveal flaws to the theory of evolution, which evolutionists themselves should be screening for. This is how science perfects itself, through self critisicm.
Yeah, my apologies for that, but unfortunately I have seen people use that bit seriously, so it's easy for Poe's Law to get me like thatVindictus said:I guess an obvious troll isn't as obvious as I'd thought :s
I was jesting in regards to the previous post, which mentioned those people who make these silly "BUF IF EVOLUTION IS REAL.. THEN WHY CAN'T ROCKS SPEAK" claims.
You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say, or you worded it poorly.marfin_ said:If it is "impossible" for change to happen over the course of millions of years, the why has the fish Coelacanth been living with very little change since it's fossil ancestors during te Paleozoic Era, which btw was about 350 million years ago?sergnb said:We are talking about millions of years here. Millions-of-years. Do you seriously believe that in that time, some drastical change is impossible to have happened?
Are you suggesting that old ideas have some sort of advantage over newer ones in terms of how close they are to the truth?Fbuh said:First of all, your run on sentences make an extremely incoherent argument. Second of all, you seem to have some of your facts bass-ackwards. You seem to believe that evolution was the lead idea the whole time, and that these filthy newcomers of Intelligetn Design are invading. It is actually quite the opposite. Evolution is an idea that is barely even a hundred years old, while Creationism has had free reign for thousands of years.
I think that it is fair to say that you seem to need to brush up on some things first before you go crying wolf on other people. Also, it is fair that if one idea is taught in the classroom, then another idea must be taught as well. People need to see all of the choices, and then decide for themselves what they want to believe is true. There is no reasone why Creationism nor evolution can be taught simulataneously.
Simply beautiful. Can I call you Socratoasty?King Toasty said:From the Book of Forums, Science 3:48;
"Lo, men and women of forums shall never know what Evolution is, nor what causes it, for they do not wish to know. Those that do wish to understand may understand ONLY through ancient right of Biology classes and intense study; for the young who claim to understand Evolution cannot truly understand it."
TL;DR: Study it.
That is not the issue though. Creationism is fine for me when it does not tread on evolution's "turf". However, Creationism is not an alternative to Evolution, that is the issue. In all honesty, you believing that the origins of life, matter, ect was created by God, or any other "Intelligent Designer", is not an issue. The idea that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, that all DNA and all the animals right now in existence were created by an "ID", that is not scientifically arguable.KoalaKid said:You say that creationism and intelligent design are the same thing, but that's not true. intelligent design is just one FORM of creationism, not a representation of what all creationist believe.Flac00 said:snip
My knowledge of evolution is pretty basic, but I have never thought that the theory of evolution is in anyway incompatible with creationism. Evolution simply tries to explain how things evolved on the planet, not where matter itself came from.
As a creationist my personal beliefs are not the beliefs of any one faith or denomination as I don't belong to any religious organizations, but I see the creator, G-d, or whatever you would like to call it as a prime mover that bought the universe into existence. Life may very well have evolved by happenstance without the creator pushing it in one direction or the other or not, I'm personally fine with either idea.
One reason creationism seems logical to me is this: I believe to explain the existence of the universe you have to start at zero, at nothing, before the existence of matter and precede from there, and this is what science has yet to do.
KoalaKid said:Flac00 said:Sure you can, its just that the theory has held up so well. In fact, because no one has been able to disprove it shows that the theory is on very very very solid ground.kouriichi said:HA, you can't scientifically prove or disprove evolution!Flac00 said:But the problem there is that it is not a science. You can't scientifically prove or disprove god, therefore creationism can't be a science.kouriichi said:"Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being."weker said:And this would be why your not a creationist.kouriichi said:created us through evolution.
Creationism and Evolution are opposite beliefs and you cannot believe in both.
If you think something guided Evolution your still not a Creationist.
I don't mean to sound harsh by linking web definitions and would normally use a dictionary (to late sadly XD)
The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution
the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
Creationism is the religious doctrine, opposed to naturalistic evolution, that life on this planet was created by a special, unique act of God. Creationism goes beyond this traditional religious belief, however, in asserting that this belief can be proven empirically and scientifically. (there is a second section to this definition however it is not nice for any believers so I left it out)
It is creationism.
Creationism doesnt dictate, "Poof humans existed". It dictates that through the supernatural beings power, humans exist, even if its through evolution.
Thats fine, just not in a science classroom. Creationism is purly an idea, while evolution is a science. The distinction between the two are immense. Your beliefs, my beliefs, and many other people's beliefs don't matter in the eyes of fact. There may be some evidence for creationism (I won't pressure you for it since you said you would refuse), but the 150 years of constant evidence and criticism of evolution has left it bordering on fact.Mimsofthedawg said:Hold on, intelligent design does NOT conflict with evolution - it simply stats that the world is too complex without there being some hyper-intelligent beings having helped spur things along - be it aliens or God. Whether that indicates the world is a few thousand years old or a few billion is irrelevant to intelligent design as a whole.Flac00 said:snip
As for Creationism, yes there is evidence for it, no I won't show it to you, and no I don't care about your arguments about how I'm a right wing nut job, oppressing religious idiot who refuses logic. I have found in my two years here on this forum that ya'll are INSANELY aggressive when it comes to the topic and convincing you that there is a SHRED OF DIGNITY in the presentation of the theory (if you feel as though it deserves such an honor...) is about as productive as digging to china with a plastic spoon.
As for evolution - OBVIOUSLY there is evidence for it. Hell, look at micro organisms. They're literally constantly evolving and some of the best evidence of evolution comes from the COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE CHANGE of one bacterium to another. Outside of that, mitochondrial DNA is a strong indicator for evolution as well.
Go ahead, disagree. And that's fine. I COMPLETELY understand that there are so many holes in these types of logic (For one thing, if the whole world was covered in water, how did fresh and salt water fish come about? Wouldn't you have killed one or the other off completely?)... but my point is that at least I'm willing to listen to both sides.
Yes, you are right that Creationism's foundations are the Garden of Eden sort of stuff. However the modern version (both by the same name and Intelligent Design) puts forward the idea I said. They say things in a general way that way they can have their same beliefs and claim that it is an "option".canadamus_prime said:If you say so. I always thought Creationism was pretty much the belief in the Bible's version of creation. You know the whole Garden of Eden thing, but whatever. I was just saying that don't want to go accusing people of ignorance and then end up with your foot in your mouth.Flac00 said:I am very sure in fact. Creationism and Intelligent Design are the same thing. Creationism is the idea that every living creature was created by some supernatural being (god in most cases). Intelligent Design is the idea that every living creature was created by some intelligent being (both supernatural and probably god). What few differences between them are small and meaningless.canadamus_prime said:Are they? If I were you, I'd make sure before making such statements as to avoid coming across as ignorant as those I'm condemning. Just saying.Flac00 said:Is it because of the rise of Creationism and Intelligent design (which are the same exact thing)
the man that discussed the evolution of the eye was fascinating, but i'm yet to hear a detailed description on how lungs evolved, and i'm leaving that up to you guys because you obviously know better sources off-hand than me.Falconsgyre said:A common question is "what use is half an eye?" The answer is that there's a whole lot of use. A single photoreceptor might mean the difference between life and death in some small cases, and that's enough to select for it and spread it throughout the population. More photoreceptors are more effective, so these would be selected for, too. On and on it goes, and millions years later, we have eyes.
I don't know if it says it on the wikipedia page, but I'm certain that it also applies to electrons, which are part of atoms, so you cannot say that it no longer applies beyond quantum mechanics.Jon Quixote said:You're going to try and pull the "uncertainty principle" as an argument against a mechanistic, deterministic universe? Sorry: does not apply. (It's like when evolution deniers like to cite the 2nd law of thermodynamics, only to forget that living things aren't closed systems.) In the case of the uncertainty principle, the observer effect, and quantum indeterminacy, well, those things are quantum phenomena. They happen on the sub-atomic level. They do NOT generally govern how matter acts on the chemical level. Once you're talking about atoms and molecules (DNA included), a certain degree of certainty is an emergent property of the smaller, admittedly wierder, quantum scale. And genes -- which are stretches of DNA, often scattered throughout the genome -- are VERY LARGE molecules, even as molecules go. There isn't any quantum anything that could possibly subject mutations to the type of "uncertainty" you're talking about. It's just irrelevant.
no, you are speaking out of arrogance. recall my first post and the man I quoted.Jon Quixote said:Getting back to evolution, what you're offering here is the "argument from ignorance." Because you, personally, can't imagine or understand how evolution happened, it didn't happen. This fallacy pops up all the time, but it's easily dispelled. All it takes is an explanation from someone who does understand (or simply can imagine) a pathway by which the evolution occurred.
now, to reiterate for those who muddled my opinion over multiple posts:spacecowboy86 said:yes, this exactly. The reason I believe in this is because I find it to be a ridiculous theory that a fish was randomly born with nubs and the ability to breath air, and it was somehow able to use that to survive better.Dann661 said:I am a Catholic, but I still know that evolution exists, and I agree that it is appalling that most people don't don't know about it. However, I do not think everyone should be forced to believe in evolution, if people don't want to, why make them? Intelligent design is still a possible theory, as is the theory of evolution, I think God guided evolution but, I'm not going to go around and try and make people teach this in schools everywhere.
I don't expect evolution to stop cause of a few humans, dont worry about that. I'm more worried about the ramifications of this.floppylobster said:I would say -Flac00 said:snip
(1) Darwin happened up upon an idea of how the basic mechanism of evolution worked. He didn't discover it as such, he recognized it. Whether humans recognize how evolution is working or not does not change the truth that it is constantly happening all around us every day. So I wouldn't worry too much that people "Don't get it". It's still working.
(2) Why should evolution not apply to humans? This is the most common misconception I come across. I have read Origin of the Species cover to cover (and it took some time). Darwin does hint that humans are part of it, but it was too difficult for him at the time to out-rightly say what he really thought so he could only imply it. Why wouldn't we be part of it?
Social Darwinism is a perversion of his theory, but only in that people think we can choose what is right. The environment is the only thing that will choose what is right, but other than that, humans are involved in an extremely complex evolutionary process. (Bobbity is right in that mutations are a driving force of evolution but environmental selection is such a huge part of it so it's contribution to the shape of life should not be discounted. Also, consider that to an individual, every other individual on the planet constitutes part of their environment).
Which brings me to answer your question - Where has these misinterpretations come from? From it being a very complex concept, that has incredible ramifications for our existence, and one that is very hard to conceptualize because of our short life spans and the fact when are inside the process itself.
I am very understanding of people who believe in god and religion when faced with the theory of evolution. It can be extremely overwhelming to face, understand and comprehend it. Also, it's not necessary for everyone to understand how it works. I don't understand fully how the human brain works but I live happily with one. And so it will be with evolution. Some will study it and learn more about it, others will go through their whole lives ignorant of it. Which brings me back to point (1); it doesn't matter that some people ?don't get it?. Those who need and want to, do. And it's working fine whether we know it or not. Any complete theory of evolution should be able to explain religion anyway right? And it does.
No, there is far more evidence, which is why people still believe in Creationism. Take the Grand Canyon for example. Evolution says that it evolved over million of years, but based on what we really know, it is impossible for the sediment to settle in the way it did in the grand canyon over a long period of time. The only real answer is that it must have happened over a few short weeks. In fact, the grand canyon perfectly fits the profile of a worldwide flood. Evolution explains it away, but based on what you can find in any geology book, the explanation that evolution gives makes no sense.Olrod said:You may need to provide some of this "evidence" that you claim exists.
To quote Wikipedia: CITATION NEEDED.
There's as much evidence supporting the Bible's story of creation as there is supporting the Ancient Greek, Egyptian or Aztec's stories of creation.
Flac00 said:KoalaKid said:sigh... just Google "can science prove or disprove anything"Flac00 said:Sure you can, its just that the theory has held up so well. In fact, because no one has been able to disprove it shows that the theory is on very very very solid ground.kouriichi said:HA, you can't scientifically prove or disprove evolution!Flac00 said:But the problem there is that it is not a science. You can't scientifically prove or disprove god, therefore creationism can't be a science.kouriichi said:"Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being."weker said:And this would be why your not a creationist.kouriichi said:created us through evolution.
Creationism and Evolution are opposite beliefs and you cannot believe in both.
If you think something guided Evolution your still not a Creationist.
I don't mean to sound harsh by linking web definitions and would normally use a dictionary (to late sadly XD)
The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution
the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
Creationism is the religious doctrine, opposed to naturalistic evolution, that life on this planet was created by a special, unique act of God. Creationism goes beyond this traditional religious belief, however, in asserting that this belief can be proven empirically and scientifically. (there is a second section to this definition however it is not nice for any believers so I left it out)
It is creationism.
Creationism doesnt dictate, "Poof humans existed". It dictates that through the supernatural beings power, humans exist, even if its through evolution.