The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Sarge034]

It's like when Bob complains that the films that women and ethnic minority's like and make profitable are to him terrible and then says that the mainstream white male films should change to appeal more to others.

I'm sorry, what? I'm sure some women and "ethnic minorities" like the films he likes and dislike the ones he dislikes. You wanna add some fact with that broad sweeping generalization? I can remember one in particular, Elysium. The entire message was the inequality between races and the like and he loved it.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/7899-Elysium

OT- I believe the message Anita is conveying has merit, but I just can't take her seriously. She provides opinions backed by out of context stills or outdated marketing campaigns most of the time, she refuses to have an actual discussion on the topic, and she can't be bothered to cite the sources she does use. I personally think objectification of women in games has gotten better, but there is always room to improve. However, at what point will needing to be politically correct damage our enjoyment of the art?

 

[Hexenwolf]

Disclaimer: I have not yet the article, I'll read it after class.

I honestly can't go by the allegations about how she run her Kickstarter because everything is all hearsay. Unless I see real evidence about the things she was accused of, I'm not going to believe it.
Therefore, I just judge her on the content of her videos, which I think are actually rather good for a Feminist 101 type of thing. I mean pretty all of the things she mentioned were literally discussed in my Feminist 101 class in college only observed in particular media that happens to be the underused and young media that we all call video games. So yeah, I don't see what's so offensive about her work.

This is exactly the thing that made me a bit leery of her: the fact that her videos are middle of the road youtube quality, and pretty decent Feminist 101 material, but she leveraged over $150,000 out of a kickstarter to produce it. It just feels like a cash grab on her part, the kickstarter being a way to advertise (and create controversy for that sake) and the money being completely unnecessary to the project. Again... just my opinion, but she just feels dishonest to me and I can't shake it.

Just to reiterate my other opinions though, getting people to talk about the actual issues, especially as mentioned in this article, at the university level, is a good thing. I just wish there was someone who felt more honest behind it.

I literally just looked it up because of your post, and the original goal on the kickstarter was a much more reasonable 6,000.

The reason she ended up exceeding that goal by so much was the media s#%@storm. You know what they say, bad publicity is good publicity.

That said, I haven't actually watched the videos, and only know about her tangentially by other people mentioning her, but from my perspective it doesn't really look like it was a cash grab.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Excuse me? I believe there are a few of my English teachers who would like a word with you. In fact, as someone with a degree in English, I'd like to have a word with you.

First off, I'm an English Professor.

Yeah? Well I wrote the dictionary!

Academics do not cherry pick evidence that supports its point. There is something called Peer review in the academic world to prevent people from cherry picking.

Secondly, I never said anything about not being peer reviewed. However, choosing evidence to support your point and poking holes in opposing points is the core of academic writing.

I can (and have) "proven" that Ophelia (in Hamlet) was faking her insanity. There's plenty of evidence in the text to support this.

Others have "proven" that she is insane.

I can (and have) "proven" that Gertrude murdered Ophelia.

Others have "proven" that she loved Ophelia.

That's how academic writing works. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

Yes, you can make the argument for almost anything in a literary work -- or in any field for that matter -- but that does not mean that all arguments are of equal strength. Tell me, professor, if you received two essays arguing opposite positions where one was backed up by 2 sentences from the book and 3 pages of conjecture and the other had 15 sentences with 3 pages of analysis of those sentences and context of how they relate to the thesis would you not say that one argument is clearly stronger than the other? Therefore, the stronger argument is more correct in the context of the original work.

The definition of cherry picking (cherry, with two 'r's and one 'e', professor), according to Wikipedia, is:

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29

Cherry picking isn't an interpretation of a text in context, it is ignoring the majority of a text to prove a specific point that may even be contradictory to the original work. Cherry picking is inherently a dishonest act as the term derives from only picking certain cherries to give an impression of a whole tree that may not be at all accurate. This is entirely different from having a well supported argument about a work. How can you, a woman of academics, say that this is acceptable? A cherry picked argument would, by definition, be weaker and thus less correct than one supported by many points used in context; therefore, if whats-her-name does indeed cherry pick her supporting points, her arguments would be weak and not representative of the actuality of women's presentation in gaming. They would also be disingenuous and reflect very poorly on her as it would mean that she is trying to deceive the feminist/gaming public or put in as little work as possible. I can't say whether or not she actually does this though, not having ever seen or read any of her work and not intending to.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

This is a reality, and many of our cherished memories (like Princess Peach) are very very flawed, they always were, we just keep trying to convince ourselves they aren't to avoid admitting to ourselves that we've liked morally questionable content for so long.

I have never cherished peach at all, she could be replaced by a blind pet chipmunk and i would still happily play those games. In fact, she could be replaced with mario and we could play as peach!! They have equal character in my opinion, which is jack sh*t, and it would be good to see bowser have a change of obsession.
Anyway, doesn't Nintendo counter this with super smash bros? Oh wait...she has a saucepan, turnip and umbrella for weaponry. *Quietly trails off*...

In Smash Bros Peach's weapons are actually full on video game references from when you could play as Peach in other Nintendo games.

1. Saucepan- Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars. Developed by Square Enix and one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

2. Turnip- Super Mario Bros 2(USA)- You utilized many vegetables or enemies as projectiles to destroy your foes instead of the more traditional power ups known today as redesigned from Doki-Doki Panic.

3. Umbrella- Once again another weapon from Super Mario RPG.

4. Golf Club- From the Mario Golf series

5. Tennis Racket- From the Mario Tennis series.

You aren't making a point by making a snide comment. Especially when all of the content in Smash Bros is a reference to previous game titles. So it's not sexist once you understand the context.

Ok, firstly, it wasn't a serious comment. maybe i shouldve put a smiley or something to imply that, but i'm british and my humour is dry at best so smileys are a rarity for me unless im surrounded by the paranoia that everyone is going to take me far too seriously.
Secondly, i certainly don't have that extended back catalogue of gaming knowledge that most on here seem to have. I just grew up a little on mario and other games without devoting all my attention to every detail on every game. It may surprise you that i have other endeavors in life, therefor cannot possibly hope to gain such knowledge until someone decides that what I've said is meticulously and maliciously engineered bullshit so they can educate me on said facts and that i am nothing more than a snide. Not that i'm taking this personally, its just early for me

 

[JellySlimerMan]

I will just leave this here:


And since you bring Jennifer Hepler, i will also leave this one that your journos missed:

You should be more careful about talking on topics you barely have a grasp off, let alone use the word "Academic Presentation" without knowing what it means.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

That said, I haven't actually watched the videos, and only know about her tangentially by other people mentioning her, but from my perspective it doesn't really look like it was a cash grab.

You sure about that? because it looks like the bait was PLANTED there for a quick cash grab.

http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/139813364

Hitting the wasp nest and complaing about being stung even if everyone knows that you dont FUCK with the wasp. Even if those wasps are 4Chan, and they have been zigzagging between doing useful shit (like fucking up with Scientology and doing vigilante justice to find pedos and rapists) to being the retarded usual self we all know, one doesn't simply go to 4Chan and trollbaits his way into victory.

In fact, they have been vocal about this manipulation, and have supported this petition against her:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/415/777/451/acknowledge-and-present-legitimate-criticism-of-anita-sarkeesian/

You guys should stop rambling and start doing some serious shit, because that petition is getting bigger.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

I can't say whether or not she actually does this though, not having ever seen or read any of her work and not intending to.

Then how can you comment about it without knowing? you are getting behind the times old man!

Fortunately for you, TvTropes (the very page that she uses) has detailed information on her fuck ups and double standards:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/FeministFrequency
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WebVideo/FeministFrequency?from=Main.FeministFrequency

Several notable quotes worth mentioning:

"The idea behind her argument that Mattie Ross is not a feminist character (because she promotes more socially-accepted "masculine values" of revenge and violence as opposed to "feminine values" of cooperation and peace) is actually a much more contentious one in feminist circles than Sarkeesian makes it seem. While certainly, the idea that promoting "feminine values" is an essential feminist goal has its supporters (most notably, Harvard sociologist Carol Gilligan in her book In A Different Voice), there are other feminists who disagree, with one of the big reasons being this trope. For starters, many would consider Sarkeesian to be denying Mattie's agency by assuming that she a) only has these values to get along in a "man's world" and b) has never questioned them (questioning =/= abandoning). Additionally, many feminists would also say there is a downside to the more "feminine," cooperative values - such as meekness and submission - which result in women who adopt them having less power and influence, which ultimately hurts women more than it helps them. So perhaps it's better for both genders that we simply uncouple values from gender roles entirely."

" Cowboy Be Bop At His Computer: Anita has made a few research mistakes. Among them:
Lumping Y: The Last Man and the Daughters of Amazon therein as an example of "crazy man-hating Straw Feminists without any realistic feminists showing up" when not only do calmer, more grounded feminists appear, but Brian K. Vaughan explicitly created the characters as examples of one type of feminist school of thought and other characters as opposing ones.
She also lists Clementine from Eternal Sunshineofthe Spotless Mind as a straight example of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, even though she is a character who was an outright subversion of this trope who actually says to her romantic foil: "I'm not a concept. Too many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them or I'm going to make them alive, but I'm just a fucked up girl who is looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours."
She has been accused of doing this in her Bayonetta review (which has been edited, see here.), where she made several inaccuracies regarding both the plot and the characters. When criticized for it, she said that it was a misunderstood joke, leading her to edit it to remove the inaccurate statements.
In her description of Starfox Adventures, Dinosaur Planet, she states that the game was meant to be "her [Krystal's] own game", and that Fox McCloud replaced Krystal, when in fact he replaced a different character, Sabre. The closest to a mention she makes of Sabre is when she says that Krystal was meant to be "one of two playable characters".
She will occasionally use games with a gender-neutral protagonist as male-centered, such as claiming Borderlands 2 features male-on-female violence, when the player can play as two female classes, or Fable II has a girl die for the sake of a supposedly male protagonist.
Her criticism of Kanye West's music video of "Monster" states that that the video is trying to fetishize the "dead women are sexy" trope, which isn't how a fetish works. She also Completely Missed The Point of the song, video, and the album as a whole, which was meant to be a critique about the depravities and vapidness of Western Society in general, hence the use of dead women. In the same video, she then criticizes Amanda Palmer's album "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" as being apart of this same "trend of fetishizing dead women" in media, which is especially baffling as the album title and artwork are meant to be a Shout-Out to Twin Peaks in the first place, and secondly she seemed to have never listened to any songs from the album itself, like "Oasis.".
Dollhouse:
She says "Dollhouse is basically a glorified brothel" as if she's noting something the show never realizes. In fact, the Dollhouse is described repeatedly in the series as an institution of prostitution and human-trafficking. The season one finale "Epitaph One" even uses the word "brothel."
After describing how the second season would move toward the themes of the season one finale, she rants about how horrifying she found the episode "Omega". While "Omega" was the last episode aired in the States, the Dollhouse season finale was "Epitaph One", an episode available for viewing on Hulu and iTunes. "Epitaph One" is a Deadly Distant Finale, and season two would explain how everything reaches that state. The events of "Omega" are irrelevant.
Sarkeesian lambasts Super Princess Peach for how Peach's powers in that game are "her out-of-control female emotions." However, the actual plot of the game is about Bowser causing everyone's emotions to become super-powered and out-of-control and Peach being the only one capable of controlling her emotions."

If you are done with the appetizer, have a look at this:

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole gender-thing is getting rather juvenile?

Everytime I see another one of these pop up I just facepalm.

Can't we get over ourselves already?

Best way to disprove the root of the problem (the "few female protagonist because of the "large" numbers of male protagonists") is to simple ask yourself this: What make you think that there are "male" protagonists?

They are male in body, yes, but does it mean anything to the plot? does changing the gender of these people send the whole plot into chaos and needs a massive rewrite? that is what SHOULD happen when good writing is involved, since ALL details matter, and gender shouldn't be an exception: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail

If one can change the sex and not miss anything on the story, then gender was never an issue. All these fictional characters are just a bunch of gender neutral idiots that happen to be male. But if either magic or sex change operations are involved, you could get a plot twist of "I was a woman before" and NOTHING would change.

The gender issue, as you say, is meaningless, because gender is meaningless. It doesn't matter if in another universe the women had more protagonists than men, if their gender isn't important there either then why should anyone care about it? Not even women like Stephany Meyer can write worth a damn about their own gender (Bella Swan, the most hated female in history), so what makes anyone think that men can represent themselves well too?

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Alternatively, name one game that would be in line with Anita's tastes and I'll tell you why it'll suck.

Thomas Was Alone

Thomas is a fucking rectangle. That is all. Try to switch the gender of Thomas and lets see if that makes a meaningful change to the narrative.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

snip

I concede defeat. It was late and my mind was mush.

On the upside, I did get to see the new Thor, so there's that.

 

[Lady Larunai]

They may not be violating women's rights, or trying to (aside, maybe the right for women to exist in sensible clothes in their games, or the right to not look like trophy wives. <.<)

If I try really hard do you think it's possible to link telling female characters what they can and can't wear to slut shaming?

 

[IceForce]

I am taking a stand and protesting. Today will be my last day on the escapist website until they drop this woman and other trolls from the discussion.

"Until they drop this woman"

umm, you do realize that Anita isn't actually employed here, right?
This article wasn't written by Anita Sarkeesian, it was written by Bob Chipman (MovieBob).

 

[00slash00]

But before Anita, I never really heard people talking about it and certainly not as much as they are now. That's why I consider her important, I feel that she kind of got the ball rolling

Discussions on gender issues have been going on since the 16 bit era when I used subscribe to gamepro. It is just in recent years internet personalities have been making a name for themselves using it to look for controversy.

I'm not saying it was never discussed before, but it's definitely more at the forefront now and devs are a lot more conscious of it

 

[Blue Hero]

Jesus Christ this whole article was just too preachy. Too much undeserved praise towards Anita, too much bold text for no real reason.

Anita Sarkeesian - The Most Dangerous Woman to Video Games.