Proof that Jim could really be a good writer for The Escapist, just stop him from making videos. Give him a column like Extra Punctuation or something like that. THAT would be worth reading. The videos? Blehhh.
The School Shooter Mod
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Oh, that's why. Page breaks which I don't see thanks to pub club. That's why there's two instance of double Bob bubbles.Sylocat said:
Anyway, Jim makes a damn good point. I'm pretty sure I was one of the people who said School Shooter was awful and shouldn't exist and such things. But yeah, I guess that was unfair. I've even stood up for the existence of RapeLay in the past (just the existence; I have no desire to play such a thing) and I still would today too. So it does indeed seem silly to condemn School Shooter. Thanks for making me think about things on a broader scale, Jim.
Of course, Bob is right too about the creator of the mod being a complete attention whore. I remember that interview, and I wanted nothing more than to punch the mod maker right in the face. A little because of his mod, but mostly because he was such a dick.
I don't see the huge issue with what he said. Yes, it's easier to just not be offended by somethings than others, but in essence the premise is basically "Don't feed the troll." And after reading that interview the mod creator did, it's quite apparent that he is definitely a troll looking to be fed. And feed him we did.Squarez said:
Also, I'd like to agree with this. I'd rather just get the whole thing in one sitting, even if it takes longer for the article to be published.swimon said:
Have you played Bulletstorm because in the prologue.ccesarano said:
Grayson & Ishi found out that Sorrano has been telling them to murder mass murderers and slave traders when in reality they were actually innocent people who had incriminating evidence towards Sorrano.
I think a Mr. Jim Sterling's really missed the point here.
Like Bob said, the creator of the game is an immature little prick (do pardon my language, mods) who basically created the game to try and fling shit at a wall for attention.
And in the context of the games themselves, most gun games are different, Call of Duty is based, and I want at least ten points for pointing this out, around war, a situation in which the other guys are going to point guns at you and start firing them. The school shooter mod is basically the equivalent of someone making a Holocaust mod for say... Postal 2.
Just let that sink in for a while. That's what its like.
Speaking of Postal 2, I can't really condone that, either, but it's harder to condemn than a blatant recreation of School Shootings.
Maybe I am a hypocrite, but at least I'm a hypocrite with moral boundries.
Like Bob said, the creator of the game is an immature little prick (do pardon my language, mods) who basically created the game to try and fling shit at a wall for attention.
And in the context of the games themselves, most gun games are different, Call of Duty is based, and I want at least ten points for pointing this out, around war, a situation in which the other guys are going to point guns at you and start firing them. The school shooter mod is basically the equivalent of someone making a Holocaust mod for say... Postal 2.
Just let that sink in for a while. That's what its like.
Speaking of Postal 2, I can't really condone that, either, but it's harder to condemn than a blatant recreation of School Shootings.
Maybe I am a hypocrite, but at least I'm a hypocrite with moral boundries.
Gaming is a reliable controversy generator solely for the fact that, at any given moment, any dialogue concerning the medium will be held among the radically biased, the uninformed, shameless trolls, scheming demagogues, and rock-chewing idiots.
The upshot to this situation is that all the so-called controversies gaming is steeped in are rather elementary to anyone without crippling congenital birth defects, and very seldom will anyone with the smallest bit of insight find anything to hash out with a comparatively sober observer.
And the upshot of that is that Extra Consideration, a column involving some of the brightest, most opinionated people on the Escapist, has invariably proven a dull echo chamber. Yahtzee has pointed this out a few times in the past, and resorted to playing Devil's Advocate just to force the conversation along after everyone involved has finished reiterating the obvious consensus to each other and to any readers that had to wear helmets as lads.
This column highlights- probably more strongly than all Extra Considerations so far- just how disappointingly pointless the column is. And that's not the fault of the contributors. It's because there aren't any difficult, lingering questions about gaming as an art form.
The upshot to this situation is that all the so-called controversies gaming is steeped in are rather elementary to anyone without crippling congenital birth defects, and very seldom will anyone with the smallest bit of insight find anything to hash out with a comparatively sober observer.
And the upshot of that is that Extra Consideration, a column involving some of the brightest, most opinionated people on the Escapist, has invariably proven a dull echo chamber. Yahtzee has pointed this out a few times in the past, and resorted to playing Devil's Advocate just to force the conversation along after everyone involved has finished reiterating the obvious consensus to each other and to any readers that had to wear helmets as lads.
This column highlights- probably more strongly than all Extra Considerations so far- just how disappointingly pointless the column is. And that's not the fault of the contributors. It's because there aren't any difficult, lingering questions about gaming as an art form.
The School Shooter mod is to pander to humanities inate lust for fucked-up things. It was inevitable that it would be made, but it's presumably a good version of the others. Provided that there can be a good version of such things.
Jim Sterling's pic looks a lot like Bubbles from Trailer Park Boys.
Jim Sterling's pic looks a lot like Bubbles from Trailer Park Boys.
Thinking about the shooter mod it's self the game (or whatever you would call it) seems somewhat pointless no matter what angle you look at it. From the view point of an angry kid the people in the game aren't even the people who have mistreated you to point where you'd consider doing such a thing (or playing this mod to prevent you from doing such a thing)there just faceless drones. From the viewpoint somebody who isn't trying to make the news in bad way, there's a bunch of people who in no way appose or threaten you and you don't get any reward (that I know of since I never played this mod and never plan to)for killing them. At least in a game like Fallout 3 should I decide to kill an entire village (which I haven't done yet by the way) I at least get ammo, guns, and things to sell if for no other reason.
So you'd be the dick? What then? You'd be the dick anyways. People would realize your a dick. And at the end of the day the only people you could attract is other dicks which would lead you to an unhappy life. Meanwhile your intended victims who you tried to hurt would be livin their lives not feeding your dickishness.Harry Mason said:
Try this. Next time someone calls you an asshole or a dick or whatever. Instead of firing back with an insult of your own say "am I? Thanks! I will work on not being like that." You not only strip them of all the power but empower yourself.
And I don't think you are a dick just the example used
Fortunately, this is a non-issue for me personally. Have I wantonly murdered helpless pedestrians in GTA? Yes, sometimes, and I get bored almost instantly. I draw no satisfaction from violence without challenge, and my main beef in such a game is if it takes too long to draw the cops' attention if I want to do something I actually think is interesting. (I also consider these escapades to be 'non-canon', since I can't see, say, Mr. Bellic flipping out and shooting a rocket at a traffic jam in Times Square Star...thing crossroads? Whatever it was called.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I agree with the Extra Credits guy entirely. Yes, the dude is just an incredibly elaborate troll, and in his Greg Tito interview it shows as much as the sun. He probably thinks he's a provocateur, but he's just some idiot whose knowledge of what 'challenging' means goes no further beyond the Wikipedia article. He claims the game makes no greater moral statements while making great moral statements himself and winking at the audience. I have since decided he deserves I waste no more thought on him, and this is the first time I have done so since then. Well done, me. Thanks, me, you're a great guy. Let's make out.
As for the concept of killing people in games of war, well, amazing but true: if you kill a person on the opposing army when you are in a war, you don't get tried for murder! So it's hard to say that a game about people getting killed in a school is the same thing than one in setting in which a minority of the population turns a blind eye to constant murder. The use of stereotypes is actually understandable because - well, some people actually made a fuzz over the fact that there were scenes in MW2 in America, as if showing the US in any light other than 'look at how badass we are' is a fatal sin. One day someone will do what Homefront naïvely thought it was doing and release a game about an army invading the US and tearing shit up. You play as the invading army, of course.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I agree with the Extra Credits guy entirely. Yes, the dude is just an incredibly elaborate troll, and in his Greg Tito interview it shows as much as the sun. He probably thinks he's a provocateur, but he's just some idiot whose knowledge of what 'challenging' means goes no further beyond the Wikipedia article. He claims the game makes no greater moral statements while making great moral statements himself and winking at the audience. I have since decided he deserves I waste no more thought on him, and this is the first time I have done so since then. Well done, me. Thanks, me, you're a great guy. Let's make out.
As for the concept of killing people in games of war, well, amazing but true: if you kill a person on the opposing army when you are in a war, you don't get tried for murder! So it's hard to say that a game about people getting killed in a school is the same thing than one in setting in which a minority of the population turns a blind eye to constant murder. The use of stereotypes is actually understandable because - well, some people actually made a fuzz over the fact that there were scenes in MW2 in America, as if showing the US in any light other than 'look at how badass we are' is a fatal sin. One day someone will do what Homefront naïvely thought it was doing and release a game about an army invading the US and tearing shit up. You play as the invading army, of course.
I wholeheartedly agree with Jim on this one.
Jim doesn't _imply_ that. He outright states it as fact. Because it's true. Part of being an adult is having control, or (at the very least) understanding, of your emotions. We learn how we react to things, and we make choices that steer us away from the things we find distasteful. This is a perfectly healthy and natural behavior - I believe that everyone has the right to avoid situations that they feel uncomfortable with.
But let's not loose sight of the fact that the things we find distasteful have the right to exist; given that they do not bring physical harm to a person or a person's property. Some people may in fact enjoy this game, and who are we to not let them? I would stay away from it because it would make me feel uncomfortable. But I am not so consumed by my gut reactions to get up in arms about it. If enough people decide simply to ignore it on the basis that they personally don't find it enjoyable, it will become forgotten.
Out of this entire post where you repeatedly stated how illogical Jim was being, you make a single coherent (yet, misguided) point: "[...] implies that people can choose what to be offended by [...]"Squarez said:
Jim doesn't _imply_ that. He outright states it as fact. Because it's true. Part of being an adult is having control, or (at the very least) understanding, of your emotions. We learn how we react to things, and we make choices that steer us away from the things we find distasteful. This is a perfectly healthy and natural behavior - I believe that everyone has the right to avoid situations that they feel uncomfortable with.
But let's not loose sight of the fact that the things we find distasteful have the right to exist; given that they do not bring physical harm to a person or a person's property. Some people may in fact enjoy this game, and who are we to not let them? I would stay away from it because it would make me feel uncomfortable. But I am not so consumed by my gut reactions to get up in arms about it. If enough people decide simply to ignore it on the basis that they personally don't find it enjoyable, it will become forgotten.
This guy wasn't paying attention when he played it.jmarquiso said:
BULLETSTORM DID EXACTLY THIS! They explicitly talk about it while you play. General Serrano laughs at Grayson when he tells him that it wasn't mutated prisoners but vacationers that he was killing, and Grayson stops making snarky comebacks and actually appeared genuinely disturbed by the fact. The game had a great story if you were willing to pay attention to it, its voice acting was top notch too. I don't know what the hell that guy is complaining about.ccesarano said:
Eh I still remember Super Columbine RPG. Its tasteless, but its someone's creative freedom, and if we as gamers want to bleat about how other games should exist int he face of insults that they are tasteless (such as GTA or CoD or Bully or etc.) then we should respect our fellow artists. No one's saying you have to like it.
"For me, personally, this is the big "down side" to having Western (particularly American) developers currently being the industry's overwhelming driving force: we INSTANTLY took the WORST things about our (Western/American) culture - the deification of the gun and the romanticism of gun-use as some kind of righteous thing unto itself - and turned them into the focal icon of a medium that can be so much more."
Poor Bob. Gun worship is one of the worst part of western culture? That reflects some strange priorities. Like it or not guns are cool pieces of machinery, and they're fun to fire too. Bob needs to go shoot some skeet and get some perspective. Is gun worship any different from tech worship? No, not really. The only difference is that guns can be used to kill people more easily than laptops. But so what, they're still just tools. Dangerous tools that should be tightly controlled and treated with caution and respect, but still tools.
Poor Bob. Gun worship is one of the worst part of western culture? That reflects some strange priorities. Like it or not guns are cool pieces of machinery, and they're fun to fire too. Bob needs to go shoot some skeet and get some perspective. Is gun worship any different from tech worship? No, not really. The only difference is that guns can be used to kill people more easily than laptops. But so what, they're still just tools. Dangerous tools that should be tightly controlled and treated with caution and respect, but still tools.
Jim Sterling (never heard of him) is my new hero. He articulated his point beautifully--a point that Mr. Bob ignored. The idea that the School Shooter mod is specifically designed to troll means that it is shit is particularly repulsive to me. Why, creating a shooter which is centered around killing Nazis and Allies, the Russians and the US Marines for money any particularly better? Activision or EA made a game for money gives it a higher moral ground than something manufactured to be incendiary? If you think there is a difference, then I believe that we cannot be made to agree on that point. Ever.
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That, too. If one is a collector of finely honed blades automatically makes him sociopath? Knives, for example, are tools that can be used for killing or for making you some salad. It's all subjective.ReiverCorrupter said:
Movie Bob's point that the issue with senseless violence in games is more a by-product of much larger problems with society reminded me of a Boondock's strip I once read. The punchline was basically : "Which you rather stand up against? I bunch of nerds who make video games, or a guy with a warehouse full of AK-47's?" I wonder how much truth there is to that, even if it's subconscious.
That, too. If one is a collector of finely honed blades automatically makes him sociopath? Knives, for example, are tools that can be used for killing or for making you some salad. It's all subjective.[/quote]Giest4life said:
Although I agree that it's subjective, guns have more less replaced the sword in terms of significance. In ancient times, swords were almost prohibitively expensive since they served no purpose besides the death of another human being. They weren't even used in hunting. Swords make shit tools, there's always something more practical to be found unless you're looking to end someone's life (it's hard to beat three feet of steel when that's the hight of military tech). Knives on the other hand serve countless purposes as a tool.
Guns act very much the same way. Although one could argue they serve a secondary purpose as a hunting tool, the point remains that no matter how awesome as guns are (and from a mechanical point-of-view, they are), the ONLY purpose they serve is to maim/kill its target. You can't create with a gun, you can only destroy. I think that's the major subtext with the problems inherent in gun-worship.
Although I agree that it's subjective, guns have more less replaced the sword in terms of significance. In ancient times, swords were almost prohibitively expensive since they served no purpose besides the death of another human being. They weren't even used in hunting. Swords make shit tools, there's always something more practical to be found unless you're looking to end someone's life (it's hard to beat three feet of steel when that's the hight of military tech). Knives on the other hand serve countless purposes as a tool.JamesBr said:
Guns act very much the same way. Although one could argue they serve a secondary purpose as a hunting tool, the point remains that no matter how awesome as guns are (and from a mechanical point-of-view, they are), the ONLY purpose they serve is to maim/kill its target. You can't create with a gun, you can only destroy. I think that's the major subtext with the problems inherent in gun-worship.[/quote]
Which is why said "finely honed blades" and not swords. You may be looking at it just from the Western, European, post Dark Age perspective. Blades (knives and swords) have been used for a wide variety of purposes: surgical equipment, symbol of statues, family artifact, killing, and preparation of food are all included.
Is it just me or putting jim in the same conversation with movie bob and james just shows him up for how he isnt in the same league as most people on the escapist.Yes Jim had a number of decent points which were brought up in the 1990s.We all know these types of games are made to "troll" get attention so people look at them.
I think james said it perfectly when giving freedom people are going to make offensive games but we should let them get on with it and ignore them.If we dont react to it they will stop making them.
oh and one other thing you want to know the difference between gta,call of duty,uncharted and "school shooter mod" the former know they are a game.The main story part was doing the missions you were fighting criminals and insurgences.If you really careful you can play the whole of gtas story without murdering a single civilian its up to the player to decide how he plays.Unlike "school shooter mod" where the only way to "win" is to murder every unarmed teacher and child you come across.
The world needs to learn to stop paying attention and giving media coverage to this attention seeking idiots and show the world we have grown up enough as an industry to ignore these games.Look at tv trust me there are a number of really offensive shows on tv but does anybody make a scene that there on no they are just ignored and put on when noone is watching.So let them have there "insulting games" as time will quickly forget about them if we stop making such a big deal out of them.
I think james said it perfectly when giving freedom people are going to make offensive games but we should let them get on with it and ignore them.If we dont react to it they will stop making them.
oh and one other thing you want to know the difference between gta,call of duty,uncharted and "school shooter mod" the former know they are a game.The main story part was doing the missions you were fighting criminals and insurgences.If you really careful you can play the whole of gtas story without murdering a single civilian its up to the player to decide how he plays.Unlike "school shooter mod" where the only way to "win" is to murder every unarmed teacher and child you come across.
The world needs to learn to stop paying attention and giving media coverage to this attention seeking idiots and show the world we have grown up enough as an industry to ignore these games.Look at tv trust me there are a number of really offensive shows on tv but does anybody make a scene that there on no they are just ignored and put on when noone is watching.So let them have there "insulting games" as time will quickly forget about them if we stop making such a big deal out of them.