The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

[BrawlMan]

Would you want an easy boss?

A breather boss doesn't hurt every now and then. God Hand has a few of them, and no one complained about them back then or now.

 

[Zechs]

People like these games for hard bosses. Would you want an easy boss?

I want fun, varied and queue bosses. Something that the series seems to have forgotten about in it's pursuit of "hard boss"

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

I was able to do dagger only play throughs for every past souls game and had fun doing it. But with Elden ring and it's DLC I'd never consider it.

Works for PvE too. The funny thing is for as big as ER is, it makes replayability easier/better than ever for people who like experimenting with different builds/setups. The caveat is that, at the very least initially, exploration is big part of what facilitates this, and it seems that’s where the biggest disconnect lies. Most people just want to beat another game and see the main shit without the riff raff, which was easier to do in the previous games (other than a handful of brick wall boss encounters).

A breather boss doesn't hurt every now and then. God Hand has a few of them, and no one complained about them back then or now.

I want fun, varied and queue bosses. Something that the series seems to have forgotten about in it's pursuit of "hard boss"

The vast majority of boss fights are still the tough but fair stuff, but the problem is many of them are optional and could technically be missed, while the mandatory ones have doubled down on spectacle bs just to look cool more than anything else. Evergaols are typically the most consistent in terms of progression and difficulty.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

People like these games for hard bosses. Would you want an easy boss?

Where's the line on that? How about a boss that just instantly murders you the moment you walk into the room unless you knew to read thirty-two random hidden notes in a specific order? Git gud at finding notes, scrub.

 

[Worgen]

Where's the line on that? How about a boss that just instantly murders you the moment you walk into the room unless you knew to read thirty-two random hidden notes in a specific order? Git gud at finding notes, scrub.

We had that, bed of chaos. Everyone hated it, but did it.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Good guide for larval tears in the dlc -

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/QMeySZayIK

 

[Worgen]

Whew, beat the DLC. That final boss, that took while, but he was kinda fun. I quite enjoyed it, lots of neat new weapons, good challenge cool huge area. I do wish the end of it was a bit less abrupt, cause it really feels like there should be more or another boss or something. But calling this dlc seems inappropriate, really should be just called an expansion, like back in the day cause there is a ton there.

 

[CriticalGaming]

It’s just there was less space along the way, and the path forward had less margin for error.

Ok so let me ask you this? If there is nothing to find in the world why does the world need to be so big and so empty? Does having a bunch of nothing make the game better?

There was also a lot less room for experimentation and player agency, which to me are both pretty much the point of ER and the dlc from a gameplay perspective.

I disagree with this a lot, for a couple of reasons. Mechanically the game does not promote experimentation because it limits your ability to respec with larva tear limitations. It also doesn't offer anything to carry over to the main game should you like a DLC build better it will not work the same when you go back to the main game. This means the experimentation is a waste because you will have to go back to something else once you're done. And finally the game is too fucking hard to just mess around with random toolkits, the difficulty promotes players stay with a playstyle that works for them rather than freedom to try new things. And it doesn't provide enough upgrade materials to even bring new shit online beyond a small number of setups.

Experimentation really only works in the beginning of these games when you are still early enough to learn the playstyle you're most comfortable with to take on the challenges provided.

 

[Silvanus]

Beat the final boss today (with some help from Mimic Tear, which I hadn't used at all until then). He's absurdly hard, but not quite as apocalyptically unbeatable as I've been hearing people say. I had more difficulty with Orphan of Kos, and possibly Messmer (though that's partly cos I was fighting Messmer alone). There is some bullshit in the fight, but its manageable with a good shield and timing (with one pure bullshit exception, which is that one-time move he pulls at about 10% health).

I want fun, varied and queue bosses. Something that the series seems to have forgotten about in it's pursuit of "hard boss"

I'd say Scadutree Avatar counts as that. Relatively easy, but varied and unique. Bayle (with the great-katana) I also found easier than Placidusax or Midir.

 

[Worgen]

Beat the final boss today (with some help from Mimic Tear, which I hadn't used at all until then). He's absurdly hard, but not quite as apocalyptically unbeatable as I've been hearing people say. I had more difficulty with Orphan of Kos, and possibly Messmer (though that's partly cos I was fighting Messmer alone). There is some bullshit in the fight, but its manageable with a good shield and timing (with one pure bullshit exception, which is that one-time move he pulls at about 10% health).

He was hard and took me awhile, but yeah, I didn't find him as hard as others were saying. It was just really making everything come together and learning to be close to his second phase. Also the mimic helped, first time I ever used it. Messmer wasn't bad, I think I used a hammer on him since stunning him was handy, also, big shield.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Ok so let me ask you this? If there is nothing to find in the world why does the world need to be so big and so empty? Does having a bunch of nothing make the game better?

There are 70 New Weapons, 10 New Shields, 39 New Talismans, 14 New Sorceries, 28 New Incantations, 20 New Spirit Ashes, 25 New Ashes of War, 30 New Armor Sets in the expansion alone, besides the normal progression stuff. How much should the game be condensed to make finding things feel worthwhile? By the empty space rationale, we could take it all the way to the game just having stages for combat to be rewarded with loot that’s sent to an armory hub to pick from chests like MK, and then warp back to out to use them in combat. Rinse and repeat.

People value different things from games, and mileage varies. It’s the same with a game like Red Dead 2, where most people stay for the main story and side quests, yet YouTubers like Strange Man are still finding secrets over five years later. Most people might not give shit less, but others still want to milk every detail. A game like Spider-Man has awesome traversal mechanics, but only the most hardcore will get extended joy out of finding all the best routes and tricks.

I disagree with this a lot, for a couple of reasons. Mechanically the game does not promote experimentation because it limits your ability to respec with larva tear limitations. It also doesn't offer anything to carry over to the main game should you like a DLC build better it will not work the same when you go back to the main game. This means the experimentation is a waste because you will have to go back to something else once you're done. And finally the game is too fucking hard to just mess around with random toolkits, the difficulty promotes players stay with a playstyle that works for them rather than freedom to try new things. And it doesn't provide enough upgrade materials to even bring new shit online beyond a small number of setups.

Experimentation really only works in the beginning of these games when you are still early enough to learn the playstyle you're most comfortable with to take on the challenges provided.

There’s 18 larval tears in base game and 9 in the expansion, so 27 rebirths for different builds per game cycle. That’s pretty generous. On PC at least you can also make separate saves of different builds if you don’t want to use them. Same for the other games, but they aren’t as generous otherwise. Bloodborne didn’t have any option for it, and most of the late game weapons weren’t even viable until the next game cycle because you didn’t have upgrade stones by that point. And the game progression is linear enough that it’ll largely be the same each time outside of what weapon is used next. Loved the game but it was discouraging enough that I never really bothered with other weapons in new playthrough’s past the first or second boss.

In ER, there are routes to getting a good head start on any build type within a couple hours, because nearly half the map is accessible with little to no restrictions. And all the weapons, gear, etc. in the expansion work the same way in base game, so not sure where you’re getting that you can’t carry it over to base game. Scaling only applies differently depending on where you use them, and it’s the same with any weapon.

Too hard? After you were just bragging about how fucking easy it was‽ Fextralife has like a dozen different builds showcased already in the expansion alone. There’s 21 max level stones between base game and expansion for standard weapons and 14 max level stones for somber weapons per game cycle. It takes like five minutes to farm roughly a million runes at the Palace Approach Ledge, and with all the bell bearings you can easily get dozens of weapons fully upgraded. That’s why exploration is a big part of the game at first. The rest is trying everything else out.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Well I'm into my 3rd (I think?) attempt at a second play-through.
The other day was commiserating with an acquaintance about our mutual gaming addictions, the love-hate relationships we have with our forever genres. He's been playing World of Warcraft forever and I've been treating FromSoftware like the hot crazy girlfriend who you know you should just forget about but you cannot help yourself.

My first complete platinum playthrough was as a wizard build for like half of it then switch to bleed/dex for a good middle chunk then a couple switches between Azure lazer cannon and mimic double blood thing in order to get through the last few bosses.

My attempts at second play-throughs- in which I faffed about Limgrave but then got bored, annoyed, or distracted- was with various dancy fast sword or thiefy dagger builds. Basically I just found all this way too additionally difficult as it highlights one of the two things I hate most about the game- the ultra fast spammy spinning around jumping all over the place enemies.

So I had the urge to get in there with a strength build and bonk some things. It's just so satisfying. And also to commit to actually using a shield.

Well I just beat Renalla andl, yeah, it's definitely more satisfying to get the rhythm of strategic turtling and bonking. I got me one of them huge shields and enough armor for a good amount of poise which means I need a small weapon so I got the morning star. It felt go to walk up to that infamous first Tree Sentinel, activate jellyfish bros, prop up my shield, and smash that horse's ass with my mace.

Mostly I just like riding around doing whatever. I have no ambition to actually beat the game again, it's just something to do while listening to podcasts and webinars. I'll quit when I've had enough, or another game comes along I want to play more- I mean if there was literally one new game I wanted to play enough to buy now I would be doing that but I don't see a candidate for that until Star Wars Outlaws, which itself is a huge maybe.

The second thing I hate about the game is settling in- upgrade currency. I'm at level 45 now and the next upgrade costs over 15,000 runes. Even though I beat Renalla I still have much to explore in Lurnia but enemies give like 500 runes or so- which means I have to do a LOT of killing without dying in order to just advance one level, and the whole point of a hard game is to not be able to do that much killing without dying. The cycle of farming and or fleeing plus some bullshit fights is what discourages playing for me.

 

[CriticalGaming]

There are 70 New Weapons, 10 New Shields, 39 New Talismans, 14 New Sorceries, 28 New Incantations, 20 New Spirit Ashes, 25 New Ashes of War, 30 New Armor Sets in the expansion alone, besides the normal progression stuff. How much should the game be condensed to make finding things feel worthwhile? By the empty space rationale, we could take it all the way to the game just having stages for combat to be rewarded with loot that’s sent to an armory hub to pick from chests like MK, and then warp back to out to use them in combat. Rinse and repeat.

The same way that all those items fit into a legacy dungeon. Open area's are fine if there is stuff to find in them, but it has to be rewarding stuff. If you find a cave there needs to be one of those key items inside, not more gravewort.

Also keep in mind that not everyone can use, or even would want to use, those items with their current spec. Which begs the question, why have limited respecs in a game with this many options? If you could respec at any bonfire then that would solve this issue entirely and truly allow for the wide experimentation that people claim the game has. Because you loose the risk of trying something. If you don't like it, you can just swap back to what you were using, no big deal. Or better yet allow people spec loadouts that they can swap at bonfires to switch between int, dex, str, whatever based stats to make it even easier. The gameplay itself is hard enough, there doesn't need to be such a friction in character choice. All they've done is limit the choices and made 90% of the games items useless to you. Which means it's only exciting or interesting to find 10% of the items.

Would you not agree that is a problem?

People value different things from games, and mileage varies. It’s the same with a game like Red Dead 2, where most people stay for the main story and side quests, yet YouTubers like Strange Man are still finding secrets over five years later. Most people might not give shit less, but others still want to milk every detail. A game like Spider-Man has awesome traversal mechanics, but only the most hardcore will get extended joy out of finding all the best routes and tricks.

Of course, that happens with every game and it's the same here with ER. I'm not denying that people aren't finding the game good or fun. I'm merely pleading my case for why I think the game is vastly lacking. The same way I despise Breath of The Wild which is a highly regarded game, though it makes zero sense to me why people praise it so much.

There’s 18 larval tears in base game and 9 in the expansion, so 27 rebirths for different builds per game cycle.

Assuming you find them. And then the expansion ones add to the hassle of having to leave the area to go pay the lady a visit. Back and forth. You just said there are 70 new weapons in the DLC alone. Plus what people have been messing with in the base game, how many of those base game respecs are you likely to have left? I know i used at least 10 of them.

In ER, there are routes to getting a good head start on any build type within a couple hours, because nearly half the map is accessible with little to no restrictions. And all the weapons, gear, etc. in the expansion work the same way in base game, so not sure where you’re getting that you can’t carry it over to base game. Scaling only applies differently depending on where you use them, and it’s the same with any weapon.

This just makes the argument for people to start the game from scratch whenever they want to try something. Which isn't reasonable, considering ER's size and general difficulty. I said in my original review that ER loses the magic of exploration beyond the first playthrough, afterwards the large world becomes an annoying burden. Sure people will play the shit out of the game over and over, but that's highly dependant on the person and the people that invest 15+ playthroughs into a game are going to do that regardless, like how many times do you think VityaVidya has played each game? Probably a shitload and that's fine. But most people aren't going to do that and they'll get frustrating with ER before ever trying a different toolset that they like better than the one they already know they like.

Too hard? After you were just bragging about how fucking easy it was‽ Fextralife has like a dozen different builds showcased already in the expansion alone. There’s 21 max level stones between base game and expansion for standard weapons and 14 max level stones for somber weapons per game cycle. It takes like five minutes to farm roughly a million runes at the Palace Approach Ledge, and with all the bell bearings you can easily get dozens of weapons fully upgraded. That’s why exploration is a big part of the game at first. The rest is trying everything else out.

It's easy for me because I'm a veteran at this shit. And I'm a god level gamer, everyone knows this about me already. But it's not an "easy" game for most people. Kai Cenat died 400 times to Tree Sentinel, over 1000 the melenia, he got there in the end, but it's clearly hard for a shitload of people and there are people complaining constantly about how hard the game is. I'm not complaining about the fact that the game is hard, and that was never my argument, but I did say it's too hard to promote experimentation and it is. The tactic that people get comfortable with is how they are going to play the game forever, experimentation is for those who really obsess into these games, but that isn't going to be what the average person does. You can watch any non-Fromsoft loving stream play ER and you'll see that they stick with the first thing that works and never change. ASmongold played jumping R2 the whole time and even when he got mad enough to quit the game for a while, he came back and stayed with the same tactic. People stick with what works, and will not change in a game this difficult. It's just how people are.

 

[Worgen]

Well I'm into my 3rd (I think?) attempt at a second play-through.
The other day was commiserating with an acquaintance about our mutual gaming addictions, the love-hate relationships we have with our forever genres. He's been playing World of Warcraft forever and I've been treating FromSoftware like the hot crazy girlfriend who you know you should just forget about but you cannot help yourself.

Wait, your on your second playthrough and only lvl 45? I was around 100 when I started mine.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Wait, your on your second playthrough and only lvl 45? I was around 100 when I started mine.

2nd attempt. I think he started fresh a 2nd time.

 

[Worgen]

2nd attempt. I think he started fresh a 2nd time.

Oh.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Wait, your on your second playthrough and only lvl 45? I was around 100 when I started mine.

Not NG+, if that's what you assumed? I don't like NG+ in games, getting all the upgrades and building the characters is part of the fun. I only did NG+ in the Dark Souls games in order to rush to platinum trophies.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

...

Also keep in mind that not everyone can use, or even would want to use, those items with their current spec. Which begs the question, why have limited respecs in a game with this many options? If you could respec at any bonfire then that would solve this issue entirely and truly allow for the wide experimentation that people claim the game has. Because you loose the risk of trying something. If you don't like it, you can just swap back to what you were using, no big deal. Or better yet allow people spec loadouts that they can swap at bonfires to switch between int, dex, str, whatever based stats to make it even easier. The gameplay itself is hard enough, there doesn't need to be such a friction in character choice. All they've done is limit the choices and made 90% of the games items useless to you. Which means it's only exciting or interesting to find 10% of the items.

...

What would make the most sense for me is to just make re-spec cost some runes, like everything other damn thing in the game.
These games all operate on the idea that everything costs something, the push and pull of risk/reward, working to get something. So if it costs runes to level up, buy gear, and- most annoyingly- improve gear even though you have the materials- it would at least be consistent to pay some runes to re-spec at a bonfire. Perhaps make it the cost of the next level up, so that it scales with your progress. Yes that makes sense to me- you're already in "level up" mode and you allow the player to re-spec instead of literally leveling up, so that the re-spec is, for that player, a soft "level up."

Sure I'd prefer it to cost nothing but I would prefer that for a lot in the game.

 

[CriticalGaming]

What would make the most sense for me is to just make re-spec cost some runes, like everything other damn thing in the game.
These games all operate on the idea that everything costs something, the push and pull of risk/reward, working to get something. So if it costs runes to level up, buy gear, and- most annoyingly- improve gear even though you have the materials- it would at least be consistent to pay some runes to re-spec at a bonfire. Perhaps make it the cost of the next level up, so that it scales with your progress. Yes that makes sense to me- you're already in "level up" mode and you allow the player to re-spec instead of literally leveling up, so that the re-spec is, for that player, a soft "level up."

Sure I'd prefer it to cost nothing but I would prefer that for a lot in the game.

That works for me too.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

The same way that all those items fit into a legacy dungeon. Open area's are fine if there is stuff to find in them, but it has to be rewarding stuff. If you find a cave there needs to be one of those key items inside, not more gravewort.

Most caves have more than upgrade materials lol. It almost sounds like you’re wanting the gaming equivalent of a novel with only nouns and verbs or something. That would really shorten up the length of a story up by getting rid of the boring adjectives, conjunctions and whatnot. Sometimes worlds are created and given scale with more than gameplay dopamine hits in mind. It’s part of the artistic design separate from whatever the player is doing.

Also keep in mind that not everyone can use, or even would want to use, those items with their current spec. Which begs the question, why have limited respecs in a game with this many options? If you could respec at any bonfire then that would solve this issue entirely and truly allow for the wide experimentation that people claim the game has. Because you loose the risk of trying something. If you don't like it, you can just swap back to what you were using, no big deal. Or better yet allow people spec loadouts that they can swap at bonfires to switch between int, dex, str, whatever based stats to make it even easier. The gameplay itself is hard enough, there doesn't need to be such a friction in character choice. All they've done is limit the choices and made 90% of the games items useless to you. Which means it's only exciting or interesting to find 10% of the items.

Would you not agree that is a problem?/QUOTE]

I’d be all for unlimited respecs and loadouts at grace sites or at least at the mirror in roundtable. I’ve voiced this before in general. As it is, there’s a limit, probably to avoid people getting stuck in a cycle of constant rebirth, like the other games. Maybe a compromise would be with NG+ these things wouldn’t be.

The rest, eh…we can at least agree this game type ain’t for everyone. We’ve had a half dozen smaller scale worlds in FROM games already, and they’re still there to play. FWIW, Miyazaki has stated in a recent interview that ER/expansion is probably the limit of what they can or would want to do going forward, so perhaps their next game will be more of a happy medium.