The slut issue

[Hoplon]

No, I applied reasoning, you simply made a claim. I'm not even asking you for "facts", I'm looking for reasoning.

Also, that link of yours? Doesn't say a damn thing about motivation.

Sorry your reasoning is as much a claim and anything I have said.

Sure it is. Do you know what the difference is? What I have said has actual discussion value, because there is something to discuss, I have given examples and reasoning. You have not, all you did was throw a claim without rhyme or reason into the room. Sorry, but that doesn't allow for any kind of discussion.

No, you have stated an opinion on something, you have presented no facts just what you consider an argument. I have presented data that says more than half of these incidents happen in people homes, their own or friends, some how that doesn't speak to me of strangers stalking scantly clad women around the streets.

The link, and any other link I can find, don't say anything about motivation because there isn't any meaningful causal or correlatory link to the way the victim comported them selves.

The problem being you trying to argue that dress is not a factor with a link that says nothing about it at all. Why post a link that says nothing? Next time I want to prove something to you I guess I can just link the Wiki article on Spongebob and call it a day, right?

You are trying to argue that it does based on nothing at all other than your opinion. When generating mean statistics they publish anything that has a significance, that your supposition doesn't show up in any of the statistics leads me to believe that is it not statistically significant if it is relevant at all.

 

[Smeatza]

I would suggest most rapes are opportunistic, but that how you have dressed isn't a meaningful causal or correlatory link in any literature I can find.

Then you aren't looking very hard.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0701.pdf
Physical attractiveness is more than just how you dress, how you dress is a part of physical attractiveness though. And when you realise that the less physically attractive, the less likely you are to be raped, how you should be playing the odds becomes very clear.

I will re-iterate. The victim of a rape is never to blame for the rape. However if one intends on never being raped in the first place, there are a number of risk management steps you can take to minimise the chance of it happening.
One of these factors (and a lesser one at that) is not dressing provocatively. Please note this does apply to males as well as females.

I wish we lived in a perfect world where minimising the risk of rape wasn't necessary for anybody, but we don't, and simply pointing out that fact (what the slutwalk movement does at best) really doesn't help anybody.
I also wish it really was as simple as "rape is only about control and power" but again, it's not. Sometimes it's about a crazy person and sexual attraction.

 

[rbstewart7263]

The problem it's that it doesn't just categorize, it judges. "Liar" just mean "person who tells lies," but "slut" means "person who has a lot of sex and is a bad person because of that."

So a sexer would be more in line with cheater and liar than slut would.

 

[Spearmaster]

So I have a question...

We call someone a liar if they lie, especially if they lie a lot.

We call someone a cheater if they cheat, especially if they cheat a lot (Whether we speak from a videogame sense or a marriage-breaking stance)

We call someone a gamer if they play a lot of games... I could go on, you get the point.

So then why is it "wrong" to call someone a player/slut if they sleep around a lot? It seems to me like you're just stating the obvious with this, you know?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....its probably a duck, even if its insulting.

Honestly I think the problem is that the term is judgmental, I don't think its "wrong" to call someone a slut/player just remember that its just your opinion and nobody has to agree with it.

 

[Flight]

So then why is it "wrong" to call someone a player/slut if they sleep around a lot? It seems to me like you're just stating the obvious with this, you know?

Because the word "slut" carries with it a tone of judgment, and a person's sex life is not subject to moral judgment so long as everyone involved in it is a consenting adult.

As for "player," I've never heard anyone argue it's wrong.

I was going to add my own two cents to this, but this underlines the double-standard involved in slut-shaming nicely. As long as no one gets hurt and everyone has fun, I don't see the problem in people of any gender sleeping around, nor do I see how judging it is anyone's right or business.

 

[dagens24]

So I have a question...

We call someone a liar if they lie, especially if they lie a lot.

We call someone a cheater if they cheat, especially if they cheat a lot (Whether we speak from a videogame sense or a marriage-breaking stance)

We call someone a gamer if they play a lot of games... I could go on, you get the point.

So then why is it "wrong" to call someone a player/slut if they sleep around a lot? It seems to me like you're just stating the obvious with this, you know?

The issue is that slut gets tossed around way too easily. People see an attractive girl and will be like 'what a slut' without having ANY concept of how many people she has sex with.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I would say that it is comparable to the dreaded N-word. If I walk up to a African-American and refer to him as a... well you know, he would be justifiably upset. I could say but it only means person of African descent. Are you denying you are African-American? No then the term applies. You can clearly spot the problem here, right? It may only strictly mean person of African descent, however it carries lots of negative conotation and is just about always used as a insult. Slut is much the same, it may techincally refer only to a women who has casual sex but be prepared when they are insulted.

 

[hickwarrior]

I just listened in to some kind of discussion going on here, and it doesn't seem to go anywhere. The only thing I have to say about that is: Let people be.

Whatever they like to do, if they were sexually assaulted, the offender should be punished, not the victim. It wasn't consensual and someone's probably left with a trauma. You can't blame the victim here, they were being used as some kind of rag, instead of being seen as a real human. I honestly don't know why you would blame, or shame, a victim because someone else wanted to have sex with you real bad that they'd resort to sexual assault.

Anyway, it seems to me that the OP's question's been answered. Slut was always a perjorative term, and people use it as such. (Slut Walk notwithstanding, I only think I've read of it either through an escapist news article, or in this thread.)

 

[ArnRand]

Interesting stuff. I only use the term "slut" when I know someone's inner workings and personal history. It's entirely situational. If a women's sexual activities disgust me on a personal level, then they get the label "slut". My personal sexual put-down for a man is to call him a "skeevy/shifty ************/pervert".

While I know that this can be personally biased, I think there's a huge difference between a woman who's comfortable talking/engaging in sex (or dressing provocatively) and someone that I find morally reprehensible. I understand how important healthy sexual activity is to human beings. It's when people make it either unhealthy or completely trivial that I get offended.

Example of what I use the term "slut" for. I have an acquaintance (a women) who's at least had over 25 sexual partners. She had a child as a result, which she doesn't give the proper care to (essentially, she lets her parents take care of it while she goes to get smashed at bars and pick up guys). In hearing from a couple friends who made the mistake of sleeping with her, she apparently doesn't use protection (though, thankfully, my friends insisted). One night, she came over to me and my friends while we were having a pint, pointed out two guys that she was with and asked which she should sleep with that night. I, disgusted that she is making sex so trivial that she's asking outside opinions from guys she barely knows, said sarcastically, "why don't you just flip a coin?". And she did...it was heads.

I definitely use the term "slut" in referring to her. She's disgusting and deserves a title that carries my feelings of disgust towards her.

Small point, I know, but how is 'over twenty five sexual partners' so bad? Over, say, five years, that's only one every ten weeks. Not exactly frigid, but it doesn't seem particually excessive.

 

[el_kabong]

Interesting stuff. I only use the term "slut" when I know someone's inner workings and personal history. It's entirely situational. If a women's sexual activities disgust me on a personal level, then they get the label "slut". My personal sexual put-down for a man is to call him a "skeevy/shifty ************/pervert".

While I know that this can be personally biased, I think there's a huge difference between a woman who's comfortable talking/engaging in sex (or dressing provocatively) and someone that I find morally reprehensible. I understand how important healthy sexual activity is to human beings. It's when people make it either unhealthy or completely trivial that I get offended.

Example of what I use the term "slut" for. I have an acquaintance (a women) who's at least had over 25 sexual partners. She had a child as a result, which she doesn't give the proper care to (essentially, she lets her parents take care of it while she goes to get smashed at bars and pick up guys). In hearing from a couple friends who made the mistake of sleeping with her, she apparently doesn't use protection (though, thankfully, my friends insisted). One night, she came over to me and my friends while we were having a pint, pointed out two guys that she was with and asked which she should sleep with that night. I, disgusted that she is making sex so trivial that she's asking outside opinions from guys she barely knows, said sarcastically, "why don't you just flip a coin?". And she did...it was heads.

I definitely use the term "slut" in referring to her. She's disgusting and deserves a title that carries my feelings of disgust towards her.

Small point, I know, but how is 'over twenty five sexual partners' so bad? Over, say, five years, that's only one every ten weeks. Not exactly frigid, but it doesn't seem particually excessive.

Good point. However, keep in mind that this is not her self-described number. This is only confirmed sexual partners I've gathered from direct exposure. I've only known them for around 2 years and I never voluntarily hang out with her. Realistically, that number is probably doubled/tripled for an actual figure, but past about 25, I'm extrapolating based on times she's not around my social circle (quite a bit) and before I met her.

Also, the number of times isn't all that crucial to me, but how that number was achieved. As noted, I believe that there's a difference between someone who regularly engages in sexual activity and a slut. It's all about the execution.

 

[SadakoMoose]

Context. Slut is kind of insult, and it's only really ever hurled at someone when someone else is trying to shame them for being sexual/engaging in sexual behavior/not conforming to social norms. Also, it's an insult that men never have to face.
Honestly, I think there's MUCH better things to do than shaming women for enjoying/having/taking an active role in sex. It doesn't really make any sense.

 

[bigwon]

someone who's trying to hard?

 

[cobra_ky]

Rape is not about desire, it's about power and control.

In some cases.
It is a myth that is always the case, do some research and you will see that the older you are, the less likely you are to get raped.
AKA. The less attractive you are, the less likely you are to get raped.
This is especially relevant when referring to opportunistic rape, the rape that the slutwalk movement refers to.

Conflating age with physical attractiveness is one hell of a false equivalency. Based on your argument, and the statistics you used to support it, men are most attractive between the ages of 50-64, because that's the age group most likely to report being rape. Even then you've only proven a correlation between rape reports and age group, not a causal relationship.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the impression that the SlutWalk movement refers only to opportunistic rape, or are "entirely about the mean streets". It's also very much about the cultural perception of female sexuality.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

SNIP.

Child abandonment? No, seriously?

Yeah.

If a woman chooses to carry her pregnancy to term and then chooses to leave the child to die of exposure rather than go through the ethical processes of giving them up for adoption, leaving them in care of the state, or alternatively terminating the pregnancy when it was a relatively simple surgical procedure, then I would say that yes, that would probably qualify under crazy behaviour she really ought not to be doing.

Sort of like unprotected sex, but wherein that would only require a regrettable lapse of judgment on behalf of one or both sexual partners, what you're talking about would require a lengthy and sustained period of deception that ends with either an attempted or successful murder of a newborn.

So no, they are not even remotely equivalent.

And you're coming back full circle again to the undeniable fact that in our society today the fetus is only recognised as a human being with rights once a woman decides to keep the child.

If a pregnant woman is the victim of serious physical assault, or is otherwise accidentally injured due to negligence and suffers a miscarriage due to those injuries, the person{s) responsible can be brought to trial on charges of murder or manslaughter depending on the circumstances of the case. And yet despite this the option of abortion is widely available, which putting aside discussions of legal semantics means that when the results are measured, a fetus only becomes a human being after a woman decides to keep the child.

Women are given every option, and men are given derivative choices stemming from the options that she selects. That is not equality. That does not even remotely come close to anything resembling equity. The child 'must' be supported because the mother made a choice. It is her decision, but if it is her decision then she must wear the consequences of pursuing it.

If a woman is worried that a man will hit and run, then paperwork could be filed in advance showing that her partner is ready and willing to undergo the rigours of fatherhood. A follow up opt-out paternity test could be wrapped into the deal too to provide certainty to the potential father that the child is in fact theirs, without forcing that awkward 'prenuptial agreement' style moment on the mother. And of course the paperwork could be filed afterwards, because their really is no onus on the man to try and avoid it.

You talk of a defending a person's sovereignty over their own body, but I can think of few things more invasive then forcing that body to provide for an unwanted dependent for anywhere up to 18 years.

 

[Treblaine]

And you're coming back full circle again to the undeniable fact that in our society today the fetus is only recognised as a human being with rights once a woman decides to keep the child.

That's not an undeniable fact.

The threshold of when a foetus becomes "alive" in the same threshold where a sick patient becomes "dead": brain activity.

Scientific investigation of Human Foetus that had been aborted or miscarried show that there is not any brain neurotransmitters before 25 weeks. That makes brain activity impossible. There are no thoughts, feelings nor emotions. Muscles twitch spontaneously but that's it.

When a sick patient has all brain activity ceases or made impossible by their brain being completely destroyed by their affliction, there is no reason to keep the heart beating and lungs breathing. They are dead even if their heart beats, lungs breath and muscles twitch.

This is nothing to do with mother's interpretation. This is science. The mother can terminate the pregnancy before any possibility of the foetus being "alive" but after that time then they can't have an abortion.

Most countries that allow abortion forbid late term abortions.

Interestingly, 25 weeks is also the earliest stage of development that the foetus can reasonably safely survive outside the womb. So to terminate the pregnancy after 25 weeks; abortion is not the choice, early term delivery is the method.

This really is a simple issue, abortion is only any kind of issue with ignorance or misinformation.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

And you're coming back full circle again to the undeniable fact that in our society today the fetus is only recognised as a human being with rights once a woman decides to keep the child.

That's not an undeniable fact.

That is an undeniable result, and it is also an undeniably inequitable result. You can certainly try to justify the result, but justifying the inequity is a far harder task.

It remains that abortion is the choice that literally terminates all other choices that could have been taken. Even when it is the choice which is not taken a woman's ability to seek an abortion casts a stark shadow across all of the other options that could have been on the table. She can apply pressure on the father to agree to give the child up for adoption if that is what the mother wants, or even should the father wish to go it alone and raise the child by himself, and even if she were open to the possibility, the reality is that the potential future threat of paying child support payments will likely see her terminate the pregnancy instead of giving the child over to the custody of the father.

 

[Dascylus]

So, page 1... Talking about Slut

Page 8 and it's about abortion I think... whatever... OT...

You say slut like it's a bad thing.
I am a slut, I sleep with any good looking piece of ass that takes an interest in my good looking piece of ass.

However I am against the idea of calling someone a slut because in your eyes they are sexually immoral.
You are not a slut because you have slept with more than 3 people in your life... More than 3 this week and that might be a different story.

Also, being a slut does not mean indiscriminate sex with anything with a pulse.
Case in point, overly drunk girl last friday... Pass
Fairly drunk girl grabbing my ass on tuesday... Ok

They were interested in me and I was interested in them. Had it been an ugly (according to my standards ok cos we're not getting into that discussion) girl or any guy then I would say no.

Oh and people, grow up and take the gender off the word slut. It applies to us all.

In short, Slut is to me like the N-word is to black culture. I'll use the word, friends can use the word with me. But I will not tolerate it being used as a hurtful insult.

 

[2HF]

By your logic, shouldn't we be calling them "Sleepers"? Or maybe "Sexers". Either of these work I think.

 

[Treblaine]

And you're coming back full circle again to the undeniable fact that in our society today the fetus is only recognised as a human being with rights once a woman decides to keep the child.

That's not an undeniable fact.

That is an undeniable result, and it is also an undeniably inequitable result. You can certainly try to justify the result, but justifying the inequity is a far harder task.

It remains that abortion is the choice that literally terminates all other choices that could have been taken. Even when it is the choice which is not taken a woman's ability to seek an abortion casts a stark shadow across all of the other options that could have been on the table. She can apply pressure on the father to agree to give the child up for adoption if that is what the mother wants, or even should the father wish to go it alone and raise the child by himself, and even if she were open to the possibility, the reality is that the potential future threat of paying child support payments will likely see her terminate the pregnancy instead of giving the child over to the custody of the father.

I can't continue this conversation. for the following reasoning:

(1) and endless stream of baseless assumptions presented as certain declarations which are too disingenuous to be qualified
(2) this has gotten completely off topic via supposed guilt of womanhood justifing "slut" slurs.
(3) the argument presented is amazingly paranoid and selfish it's more trouble than it's worth to counter
(4) Your focus on child support is entirely backward seeing it as a "threat" rather than a matter of responsibility for helping children.

 

[Segafriday]

Here's my two cents. if men love to congratulate each other on how many sexual partners they have in a short amount of time, IE, being a player, then women can do the same without being judged, if you DO judge her on it, your a hypocrite.