The 'whats the point in marriage?' debate :)
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It's value, if it truly exists, is in making it difficult for a couple to separate so that the children produced can have both their parents participate in their upbringing.
Children of married couples, whose parents have never been married or had children with anyone else, whose parents do not divorce during their childhood, and in whose house there is no abuse tend to do better in life by most metrics. This may be a "conformist" or a "religious-oriented" viewpoint, but it's pretty well-supported statistically (although many who don't want to hear this question the sources).
The fact that this situation is rare doesn't mean its an obsolete way of life.
I'm not saying that "non-traditional" (as if there's truly such thing as a traditional family) families are bad, although I'm sure that's what many people here will read. I'm saying that people who are responsible about what happens to their genetic material give their children a slight advantage.
If you care more for yourself than staying with your children, you're a bad parent. If you never want to meet your offspring, you're a bad parent. That doesn't mean someone else can't be a good parent to your child. Their family will be great. Your family will be shit.
Children of married couples, whose parents have never been married or had children with anyone else, whose parents do not divorce during their childhood, and in whose house there is no abuse tend to do better in life by most metrics. This may be a "conformist" or a "religious-oriented" viewpoint, but it's pretty well-supported statistically (although many who don't want to hear this question the sources).
The fact that this situation is rare doesn't mean its an obsolete way of life.
I'm not saying that "non-traditional" (as if there's truly such thing as a traditional family) families are bad, although I'm sure that's what many people here will read. I'm saying that people who are responsible about what happens to their genetic material give their children a slight advantage.
If you care more for yourself than staying with your children, you're a bad parent. If you never want to meet your offspring, you're a bad parent. That doesn't mean someone else can't be a good parent to your child. Their family will be great. Your family will be shit.
As xmas and everything, it's something religious, for me that not actually in any kind of cult, i would marry because it's a freakin awesome party (when you know how to do it and is able to affort such luxury) and show to everyfuckinone that you like that person. Just that for me, but it's not a "MUST HAVE".
I think marriage does have a point. It shows that you do really love one another, and as they're harder to walk away from people are more likely to try an resolve issues than just leave.
And marriage isn't necessarily religious. My uncle got married without entering any kind of religious building at all. And churches are, usually, lovely, lovely buildings. That's why atheists like them, I personally love good old churches, cathederals and stuff like that.
Whilst it's not necessary, I think it's worthwile if for nothing other than the gesture. That you're saying you want to spend the rest of your life with them is a pretty powerful thing.
Oh, and of course, tax breaks.
And marriage isn't necessarily religious. My uncle got married without entering any kind of religious building at all. And churches are, usually, lovely, lovely buildings. That's why atheists like them, I personally love good old churches, cathederals and stuff like that.
Whilst it's not necessary, I think it's worthwile if for nothing other than the gesture. That you're saying you want to spend the rest of your life with them is a pretty powerful thing.
Oh, and of course, tax breaks.
I think marriage is a unnecessary practice. I do however think that its perfectly OK to celebrate two people who have decided to commit themselves to each other for life.
For that reason I will have a wedding, but it will never, ever, ever involve the church.
For that reason I will have a wedding, but it will never, ever, ever involve the church.
the only real benefit i can see to marriage is that it affords strong legal rights and protection which isnt available for couples and co-habitees,
and too a lesser note, i surpose it must be fun to get all dressed up and have a party infront of friends and family
and too a lesser note, i surpose it must be fun to get all dressed up and have a party infront of friends and family
This is one of the things that irritates me the most about this sort of thing. Many Atheists wish to get married in a picturesque parish church, but then complain when the vicar seems a bit peeved. Of course he's a bit peeved! You've showed up, you're not of the same faith, and you want to get married in the church, but there's no chance you'll support the parish at all, many people get married in a church, and then never set foot in one ever again. (Well, maybe once or twice at christmas) It's just a hugely hypocritical thing to do.pulse2 said:
hmm, well, for instance:
you get pulled over and the person you love next to you isn't your spouse, they will tow your vehicle so they can charge you money
you get pulled over and the person next to you is your spouse, they cannot tow your car away and charge you unless said person has no drivers license.
Similarly, if you died, they could take the house away if you weren't married to said person.
I see your point, and I personally think of marriage as more of a "I want to spend my days with you as more than just lovers" kinda thing, but I decided to look at it from a more logical perspective to answer your question.
you get pulled over and the person you love next to you isn't your spouse, they will tow your vehicle so they can charge you money
you get pulled over and the person next to you is your spouse, they cannot tow your car away and charge you unless said person has no drivers license.
Similarly, if you died, they could take the house away if you weren't married to said person.
I see your point, and I personally think of marriage as more of a "I want to spend my days with you as more than just lovers" kinda thing, but I decided to look at it from a more logical perspective to answer your question.
I like marriage. I want to get married and have a family. Being able to find a girl that I trust completely, is my best friend, and my only love and lover would be amazing. If you are looking for a purpose in marriage beyond marriage, then marriage is not for you because you end up looking at it from a logical and economical stand point. Relationships, long term ones, should never be built on such ground, because that ground can easily be washed away. Of course, I'm from the school of "wait till you're married to have sex" and all that, so I'm probably out of touch with everyone else.
Now, if only I could find a girlfriend...
Now, if only I could find a girlfriend...
A bunch of traditional claptrap, if you want to spend the rest of your life with someone I don't think it's necessary to have a cermony for it.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice claptrap, but claptrap nevertheless.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice claptrap, but claptrap nevertheless.
I'm going to go with what I like to call "My Stupid Logic"
But Before that, if you look at Marriage from a PURELY logical standpoint, it is nothing more than a piece of paper and a (hopefully) kickass dinner and after party with EVERYONE you possibly know. Cold logic on the other hand, has never been in Love's basketball court...
You see, if you applied such strict Logic to Love, Then one person could be with any person for the sole reason of keeping a stable social state and making babies. You can do that with anyone of the opposite sex (ignoring injury, biological clock or not being able to have children) and we could all live our lives like robots and never emote (strong emotions too, are illogical most of the time)
So you can't apply Logic to Marriage either, since its a ceremony blessing and joining two people in Love.
Now onto the My Stupid Logic...
Personally for me, Marriage is about the joining of two families to create a larger family through the bond, something you CAN'T do if you're not married. Sure you could call your Bf/Gf's father "dad" if you really wanted to, but it doesn't make it so from an outsiders viewpoint. It's this bigger sense of things that attacts me to the idea of marriage moreso than getting a couple of perks and neat and tidy mail. You want a reason for marriage? The reason I'll give you is the binding of two souls (shut up I'm spiritual) AND the connection it gives to a much larger family.
And to be completely soppy, Love doing that to two groups of people that would otherwise not get to know eachother is simply magnificent.
But Before that, if you look at Marriage from a PURELY logical standpoint, it is nothing more than a piece of paper and a (hopefully) kickass dinner and after party with EVERYONE you possibly know. Cold logic on the other hand, has never been in Love's basketball court...
You see, if you applied such strict Logic to Love, Then one person could be with any person for the sole reason of keeping a stable social state and making babies. You can do that with anyone of the opposite sex (ignoring injury, biological clock or not being able to have children) and we could all live our lives like robots and never emote (strong emotions too, are illogical most of the time)
So you can't apply Logic to Marriage either, since its a ceremony blessing and joining two people in Love.
Now onto the My Stupid Logic...
Personally for me, Marriage is about the joining of two families to create a larger family through the bond, something you CAN'T do if you're not married. Sure you could call your Bf/Gf's father "dad" if you really wanted to, but it doesn't make it so from an outsiders viewpoint. It's this bigger sense of things that attacts me to the idea of marriage moreso than getting a couple of perks and neat and tidy mail. You want a reason for marriage? The reason I'll give you is the binding of two souls (shut up I'm spiritual) AND the connection it gives to a much larger family.
And to be completely soppy, Love doing that to two groups of people that would otherwise not get to know eachother is simply magnificent.
Yeah, that makes total sense...you know, considering that there aren't a ton of financial benefits to marriage such as, ...RAKtheUndead said:
Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
A ceremony can cost as little as a trip to see the justice of the peace in your area. Of course, say you do have a ceremony, I've seen modest ceremonies like my sisters that cost around $2,000. She planned all of it. Your assurance that any woman is going to drain you financially with the wedding would seem to indicate that you are sexist, or just an idiot generalizing far too much. Your lack of understanding of marriage benefits also suggest that you are either extremely dense, or have never been married. Possibly both.RAKtheUndead said:
OP: aside from the above benefits of marriage, it's around for a few romantic and pragmatic reason. Romantically, it's an sentiment of commitment that is visible to all. It's a way of showing that you aren't still in that relationship stage of "I'm still trying to keep my options open," otherwise called "I don't trust you enough." It's a way of celebrating your love. Pragmatically, it encourages settling down and starting a family which is better for the child sociologically and better for the nations economy.
Also, it's not really religious anymore. At least, it doesn't have to be. The minute the government started recognizing marriages in the USA is the same minute that it became secular in the USA.
That's what it looks like in my nation, at least. It's probably pretty similar in the UK and Ireland.
I don't like tradition, so marriage in the traditional sense doesn't suit me. I do like the idea of eternal unity, I do like the idea of marking this event, and I am not entirely opposed to the legal changes involved. If I'm ever getting "married", I'd want a celebration different and subjectively more aesthetic than the traditional marriage.
I think marriage, as with all "fluff" celebrations marking important life events, have the purpose of making people change their routine, or alter their thought-patterns. Marriage being there to make a pair mark the fact that they're together for eternity. I think there might be the possibility of a biological trigger we're wired with that we activate with such a celebration, but that's just a hypothesis of mine.
I think marriage, as with all "fluff" celebrations marking important life events, have the purpose of making people change their routine, or alter their thought-patterns. Marriage being there to make a pair mark the fact that they're together for eternity. I think there might be the possibility of a biological trigger we're wired with that we activate with such a celebration, but that's just a hypothesis of mine.
Well there are certainly deeper, more underlying issues here.RAKtheUndead said:
I don't think anyone can think that way without a story to tell.
But if that's your honest point of view, then you're right. It's best that you don't get married. With an attitude like that, it would be doomed to fail. It takes work and serious trust. If you can't allow yourself to grasp either of those, then it just won't work.
And I hope you know, Rak, that I'm not saying that to be insulting or belittling.
It certainly seems, whether true or not, that you have some deep rooted trust issues.
And without trust in the other person (On both sides), then you're right. It won't work.
It does make me sad to read something like that, though. Like I've said: My marriage has been the most rewarding experience of my life. I couldn't imagine someone missing out on something like that because of self depreciation and fear.
You need a ring and a piece of paper that only makes fake promises of "forever" to get that feeling? You're seeking security in the wrong thing, good sir. Neither that piece of jewelry nor that piece of tree has any control over your beloved's emotions, which is what ensures that you won't grow old alone.bdcjacko said: