The Witcher 2 Pirated "Roughly 4.5 Million" Times, Says Dev
- Thread starter Hevva
- Start date
I pirated this while I was waiting for my order to come through simply because I didn't want to wait. The thoughts of including items with the packaging which users would otherwise not get at all is definitely much better than adding some stupid restrictions such as having to stay connected to the internet at all times or anything else to be honest. As said, DRM gets cracked regardless. So might as well work on showing that the game is just great, instead of messing around with it.
The financial loss is definitely large, but I don't imagine it's any different on other single player PC games.
The financial loss is definitely large, but I don't imagine it's any different on other single player PC games.
I guess it shows you can still be successful without DRM but I still feel bad for them losing so much business. It's good that they don't resort to such draconian and unnecessary measures to try and combat piracy but with losses like that I would at least try to find some other way to stop piracy to some extent if I was them. When someone makes a genuinely great game which can gain success by simply being a great game they deserve to make as much as they can from their efforts. Especially with a small studio like this.
how the hell is THAT a good ratio? only 1 in 5 of their games make them any profit.
Honestly, if that is considered a normal proportion of pirated copies : actual sales then if I were a game developer I would DEFINITELY be erring on the Ubisoft side of things: There's barely any point in developing for PC.
Honestly, if that is considered a normal proportion of pirated copies : actual sales then if I were a game developer I would DEFINITELY be erring on the Ubisoft side of things: There's barely any point in developing for PC.
where do they get the number from? Isn't one of the negatives about pirating that you don't know how much sales you lost?
Other then that, good show from the poles.
Other then that, good show from the poles.
so how did they come up with that 4,5 million? pulling numbers out of their arses much?
i once read that companies would count every connection in torrent networks as a download. even though there are many many more connections than actual downloads, due to the working nature of the torrent p2p system.
i once read that companies would count every connection in torrent networks as a download. even though there are many many more connections than actual downloads, due to the working nature of the torrent p2p system.
Pirates have been here from the start and they'll never go away. And if I can believe the statistics, PC sales are actually going up, despite the piracy. So no, PC gamers don't "deserve" DRM and other crap. If anything, PC gamers should get better treatment, and the sales would be even better.Omnific One said:
CD Projekt (and a few other companies) understands this and I'm glad they do because the first Witcher is one of the best RPGs I've ever played. Sadly my PC wasn't good enough back then either so I couldn't finish the game, but when (if...) I'll have the money to upgrade, it will be one of the first games on my list. Then I can only hope they'll have some of the fancy copies of The Witcher 2 with the extra stuff still available for me...
Posting this on page 4, I might as well not post but here goes.
Not going to defend piracy as a general act, but the bottom line is that there are many people out there that can't afford computer games, the jobless student lot for example. Now, not saying piracy is the answer.
Here's my point.
Lets say 5M copies of W2 were downloaded to 1M sold. It is 100% false to say they lost 5M sales. Of all the people I know, some pirate some don't. Here are reasons people I know pirate.
1) The collector - I know a guy who has every game ever. EVER. He doesn't buy them, he doesn't play them he just gets some satisfaction having the file.
2) Can't afford games - I know a few students with no money, they either pirate or they don't play. Again, not saying its right but I refuse to accept that it is harmful to the dev's bottom line.
3) Can afford some games but not all. See above.
4) Test runs. These people then generally do go and buy. I've done it occasionally, pirated a game when I wanted it and had no money, bought later after payday.
5) Scumbags who refuse to pay for something they want.
To my mind, only category 5 people actually are a lost sale. Take the jobless student lot - if we waved a magic wand and stopped anyone from playing a game they hadn't bought, they wouldn't run out and buy it. They can't. There is no sale to be made.
Then on the other side of that there is the evidence that piracy can serve as free advertising and word of mouth that actually increases sales.
The bottom line is that
1) DRM doesn't work
and
2) Even if it did, stopping people playing for free does not mean they will pay.
Not going to defend piracy as a general act, but the bottom line is that there are many people out there that can't afford computer games, the jobless student lot for example. Now, not saying piracy is the answer.
Here's my point.
Lets say 5M copies of W2 were downloaded to 1M sold. It is 100% false to say they lost 5M sales. Of all the people I know, some pirate some don't. Here are reasons people I know pirate.
1) The collector - I know a guy who has every game ever. EVER. He doesn't buy them, he doesn't play them he just gets some satisfaction having the file.
2) Can't afford games - I know a few students with no money, they either pirate or they don't play. Again, not saying its right but I refuse to accept that it is harmful to the dev's bottom line.
3) Can afford some games but not all. See above.
4) Test runs. These people then generally do go and buy. I've done it occasionally, pirated a game when I wanted it and had no money, bought later after payday.
5) Scumbags who refuse to pay for something they want.
To my mind, only category 5 people actually are a lost sale. Take the jobless student lot - if we waved a magic wand and stopped anyone from playing a game they hadn't bought, they wouldn't run out and buy it. They can't. There is no sale to be made.
Then on the other side of that there is the evidence that piracy can serve as free advertising and word of mouth that actually increases sales.
The bottom line is that
1) DRM doesn't work
and
2) Even if it did, stopping people playing for free does not mean they will pay.
i really don't understand people who pirate games, they work so hard on them (developers) they give you hours of enjoyment and people just rip them off.
why dont more companies do stuff like batman arkham asylum did, where pirated copies have game breaking flaws in them, that way the pirates have to buy it?
why dont more companies do stuff like batman arkham asylum did, where pirated copies have game breaking flaws in them, that way the pirates have to buy it?
Read a little closer. I was saying the PC gaming population as a whole (which is about 75-80%+ pirates by these numbers, which is still surprising) "deserves" companies trying every measure possible to stop piracy. Also note that I said it is the legal gamers who have to pay the price. Honestly, this case just proves that most people still want to steal, even if everything is bent in their favor. They can't just say, "Oh, I pirated it because they used DRM or day one paid DLC." They got treated incredibly well by CDProjekt and still the sales/pirated copies ratio didn't improve at all.Necros_21 said:
Edit: Also, everyone needs to stop with the "demo" excuse. That is the biggest excuse of pirates and it is certain that the turnover rate to actual sales is probably around 5%, not higher like so many guilty consciousnesses claim.
Wow. Seriously? 4.5 million pirated copies. I hope some of those @$%#ers decided to man up and buy a copy when they had a chance. This company is doing great things for gamers and for them to project such a high number and (comparatively) such a low sales number is really sad.
If you pirated it. Go out and buy the !@#$ing thing...douchebags.
If you pirated it. Go out and buy the !@#$ing thing...douchebags.
I downloaded the Witcher 2. Just because it was faster to arrive than my already paid-for copy that was being shipped from Amazon. So my download is lumped there somewhere, but it represents a purchase-at-launch, not a loss for them.babinro said:
CD Project has the right mind here, IMHO. The pirate versions are a product that's damn hard to compete with. They work well, they cost nothing, they are fast and easy to acquire and require you to jump no hoops. CDP counters this by adding value to their free updates. Other Devs/Publishers? Try any game that requires GFWL...
Don't forget DRM is a product. People make anti-piracy measures and sell them. So they have an incentive to make you, the developer, fear piracy, so that you'll want to use their DRM or use them as a publisher (and they'll provide the DRM). And of course, in return, they take a cut. They don't make games, they get involved in the process of selling your game and in return you let them get some of the profits. They have to convince you the developer that this is a good idea, or you might just sell to teh customer directly, god forbid, and then they get nothing.
This was an easy argument to make to developers when publishers and such also provided so many other things - the printing of physical media, paper manual, case, cd, artwork, extra goodies, shelf space, distribution, shipping, returns, customer service.
But now, w/digital distribution, DRM is often one of the *only* things they have to offer to a developer anymore. So they better get you scared so that you *want* their DRM. Otherwise you the developer might realize you can just deal w/the customer directly w/out need for physical media or its distribution and that you don't need them anymore, and you especially don't need them taking a cut of your profits for doing so little. You might get uppity and try to give them a smaller and smaller piece of the pie.
What they should be offering is exposure. I've some times heard of games for the first time through steam. That's a valuable thing to offer developers. I bet many of these indy games now being sold on steam are being bought by people who never would have heard of said games if not for steam. DRM might be a stupid reason to use steam, as a developer, but exposure is valuable and a great reason to pick a publisher. Its not worth giving a cut of your profits for the DRM, but it might be for the exposure, if they can truly offer it.
fear can sell though. A false dichotomy is implied - trying to make you believe that you either will self publish and lose everything to pirates, or that your only alternative is to use the publisher and their DRM (for a price) and make oodles of money all thanks to them.
Heck, if I sold DRM, i'd secretly encourage piracy as much as i could so that people felt teh need to buy my product all the more. I'd certainly skew statistics to make piracy look as bad as possible, and jump to illogical unfounded conclusions whenever they favored me and fostered fear, though i'd try not to be too obvious about it. I might even start up seemingly independent organizations/websites and have them support my outrageous claims, lending them credibility. I'd assuredly encourage others to adopt false cause & effect ideas in my favor - such as the notion that 1 million download connections of an illegal copy of your game represents 1 million different people (not say 500 thousand who downloaded part then reconnected later to download the rest, or downloads from china from people who could buy an illegal copy of your game on a street corner anyways w/government sanction, or the bots i made as a drm seller to repeatedly download the game inflate the #'s, or little kids whose parents wouldn't have bought the game for them anyways). All to help create the climate of fear i need so everyone will buy my snake oil. Snake oil salesmen are as old as money. DRM is just one of the modern day snake oils.
Not to say there isn't real piracy. But the fact there is real piracy, creates the kernal of truth from which a climate of fear can be created making everyone feel as if they need the DRM (for a cost of course).
So says Smeg
This was an easy argument to make to developers when publishers and such also provided so many other things - the printing of physical media, paper manual, case, cd, artwork, extra goodies, shelf space, distribution, shipping, returns, customer service.
But now, w/digital distribution, DRM is often one of the *only* things they have to offer to a developer anymore. So they better get you scared so that you *want* their DRM. Otherwise you the developer might realize you can just deal w/the customer directly w/out need for physical media or its distribution and that you don't need them anymore, and you especially don't need them taking a cut of your profits for doing so little. You might get uppity and try to give them a smaller and smaller piece of the pie.
What they should be offering is exposure. I've some times heard of games for the first time through steam. That's a valuable thing to offer developers. I bet many of these indy games now being sold on steam are being bought by people who never would have heard of said games if not for steam. DRM might be a stupid reason to use steam, as a developer, but exposure is valuable and a great reason to pick a publisher. Its not worth giving a cut of your profits for the DRM, but it might be for the exposure, if they can truly offer it.
fear can sell though. A false dichotomy is implied - trying to make you believe that you either will self publish and lose everything to pirates, or that your only alternative is to use the publisher and their DRM (for a price) and make oodles of money all thanks to them.
Heck, if I sold DRM, i'd secretly encourage piracy as much as i could so that people felt teh need to buy my product all the more. I'd certainly skew statistics to make piracy look as bad as possible, and jump to illogical unfounded conclusions whenever they favored me and fostered fear, though i'd try not to be too obvious about it. I might even start up seemingly independent organizations/websites and have them support my outrageous claims, lending them credibility. I'd assuredly encourage others to adopt false cause & effect ideas in my favor - such as the notion that 1 million download connections of an illegal copy of your game represents 1 million different people (not say 500 thousand who downloaded part then reconnected later to download the rest, or downloads from china from people who could buy an illegal copy of your game on a street corner anyways w/government sanction, or the bots i made as a drm seller to repeatedly download the game inflate the #'s, or little kids whose parents wouldn't have bought the game for them anyways). All to help create the climate of fear i need so everyone will buy my snake oil. Snake oil salesmen are as old as money. DRM is just one of the modern day snake oils.
Not to say there isn't real piracy. But the fact there is real piracy, creates the kernal of truth from which a climate of fear can be created making everyone feel as if they need the DRM (for a cost of course).
So says Smeg
Wow such good sports; I need to get round to buying The Witcher 2 at some point. This show that regardless of DRM or no DRM a hardened pirate will pirate a game regardless of DRM/price/etc. So it is better not to screw over legit customers because doing that will have a more tangible affect on the sales of your product.
I'd like to know where they got those figures from.
Also as "bad" as 4-4.5 million pirated copies goes, you also have to ask how many of those people would have paid for the game at full price if they didn't have the option. Not many I'd imagine. The industry has to stop equating piracy with a lost sale, because it's not. It might be stealing, but at the same time it's a kind of theft where there is no definate loss to the person owning the IP and that needs to be understood when it comes to things like this.
Truthfully I am not a big fan of piracy despite how it might sound at times. Honestly I think the first thing that needs to happen towards solving the problem is for liscence reform. Right now the whole attitude that games are not owned by the people buying them but are granted as a liscence that the game publisher can revoked at any time is part of the problem.
Basically a legal game sale is more or less "give me money, and I may or may not give you something in return, as suits my whim". What's more with thigns going increasingly digital there is little guarantee that the consumer actually controls anything as any one of those platforms could go offline at any given time. For example tomorrow STEAM could close and take all of your games with it, while Gabe promised to modify the games to run without it if such a thing ever happened he's not under any legal obligation to do so, and even so where you could download them from if you don't have an extra-jumbo hard drive for everything you own (if you have a lot of stuff) you'd still be in trouble.... hence why I am a big believer of the "disc in hand"... which is becoming increasingly uncommon with the PC at least.
The point is that I see where CD Projeckt is coming from, but really they, and the industry in large, needs to look entirely at sales and how much they are making, not at piracy and thinking about how much they could have made if all of those copies were sold because there is no guarantee they would be.
Also as "bad" as 4-4.5 million pirated copies goes, you also have to ask how many of those people would have paid for the game at full price if they didn't have the option. Not many I'd imagine. The industry has to stop equating piracy with a lost sale, because it's not. It might be stealing, but at the same time it's a kind of theft where there is no definate loss to the person owning the IP and that needs to be understood when it comes to things like this.
Truthfully I am not a big fan of piracy despite how it might sound at times. Honestly I think the first thing that needs to happen towards solving the problem is for liscence reform. Right now the whole attitude that games are not owned by the people buying them but are granted as a liscence that the game publisher can revoked at any time is part of the problem.
Basically a legal game sale is more or less "give me money, and I may or may not give you something in return, as suits my whim". What's more with thigns going increasingly digital there is little guarantee that the consumer actually controls anything as any one of those platforms could go offline at any given time. For example tomorrow STEAM could close and take all of your games with it, while Gabe promised to modify the games to run without it if such a thing ever happened he's not under any legal obligation to do so, and even so where you could download them from if you don't have an extra-jumbo hard drive for everything you own (if you have a lot of stuff) you'd still be in trouble.... hence why I am a big believer of the "disc in hand"... which is becoming increasingly uncommon with the PC at least.
The point is that I see where CD Projeckt is coming from, but really they, and the industry in large, needs to look entirely at sales and how much they are making, not at piracy and thinking about how much they could have made if all of those copies were sold because there is no guarantee they would be.
The issue should not be the amount of illegal copies. The issue should be: "Has my game made enough money so that I can pay my guys and keep the company going." Yes, it's a huge mind change, especially for the Americans.
CD Projekt is not a public company. They don't have shareholders coercing them into paying dividends, to have a sustained growth, to improve endlessly profitability. CD Projekt is more free, in the end, and can do whatever the hell they want with THEIR product.
People are reasonable, believe it or not. Give them a good, long game, for a cheaper price and with no hassle at all (DRM), and they will be willing to pay for it. Not 100% of them, of course (find me a topic where 100% of the people will behave the same and I'll show you how to ride a unicorn to Mars). But, again, as long as you get enough to live, that should be enough.
It all comes down to human greed.
CD Projekt is not a public company. They don't have shareholders coercing them into paying dividends, to have a sustained growth, to improve endlessly profitability. CD Projekt is more free, in the end, and can do whatever the hell they want with THEIR product.
People are reasonable, believe it or not. Give them a good, long game, for a cheaper price and with no hassle at all (DRM), and they will be willing to pay for it. Not 100% of them, of course (find me a topic where 100% of the people will behave the same and I'll show you how to ride a unicorn to Mars). But, again, as long as you get enough to live, that should be enough.
It all comes down to human greed.
These kind of messages need to be expressed before a games release.
If a developer comes across genuinely and cares for the fans then it really is a good incentive to buy their game as you do feel that they are worth your money and that you are giving it to a good studio with good people.
Hell after reading this I'm thinking of buying Witcher 2 just to support them.
If a developer comes across genuinely and cares for the fans then it really is a good incentive to buy their game as you do feel that they are worth your money and that you are giving it to a good studio with good people.
Hell after reading this I'm thinking of buying Witcher 2 just to support them.