FalloutJack said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
The old stand-by: Who would win in a fight?
I'm fairly certain that most cases of primitive-but-effective against most anyone toting powersuits, laser gatling guns, and of course plasma weapons is going to have not a phyrric, but a clear-cut victory in the case of the powersuit brigade. But the question of Enclave is neither here nor there. We're talking New California Republic. So!
The first thing I should acknowledge is that I am slightly-coloring this with my incredible ability to kill things in the wasteland, earning me multiple levels of Lord of Death in short order. I shouldn't speak of any side's abilities in reference to my own, because I shoot ALOT of things. That said, I've actually sat there and watched two sides duking it out as well. The usual case of something attacking the NCR patrols is that they raise their guns, they shoot at it until it dies, and they return to their duty. The time it takes for a Legion acolyte or something to do the running towards them, he could be dead before the spear lands, if it ever flies.
Okay, let's take Camp Forelorn Hope. There is a mission where you go there and you do things for these guys, but most importantly you help them out with their constant assault of Legion SOBs from an encampment. Now, I was figuring that this was going to be a terrible fight where everyone but me ends up dead in the first few seconds, and then perhaps I get dead too from overwhelming numbers. This was before I really understood that the Legion weren't all that great. I led the charge, chose my targets, and the guys following me cleaned up almost as well as I did. I think maybe one of them died from a spear to the face. While I was raiding all of the bodies, I wondered what in the hell the big deal was all about. Here I was, thinking we'd all - you know - die...and we were all badasses. Not just me, but them too.
I think, if anything, the thing holding NCR back is not them, but itself. I don't think their leadership is any good. They phased out the Tandi stuff and that made me sad. I think Caesar successfully got them to shit their pants because of brutal cutthroat attacks and propaganda, not actual power. The truth is, I think the Jackals are a greater threat, brutallity and technology, no regard for human life while living in an operational VAULT. I have a feeling that if the Legion were as powerful and as numerous as claimed, they'd march thousands west, kill their fill, and be done with it. The REAL Romans did that. These are just low-brained butchers.
Errr, well, after having met Caesar I got the impression that he was very loosely (very, very loosely) based on Milo Morai from Robert Adam's "Horseclans", and that his faction was never actually explored in the intended detail, including the brutality, slavery, and logic/morality that went along with it. Perhaps because it was decided that it would be too controversial and seem like they were trying to sell some things that they weren't if they did (Robert Adams himself had to put some disclaimers into his own books once in a while). As a result the overall equasion was never really broken down or explained well, and really there is only so much that can be conveyed by the current technology and AI.
In Horseclans half the point is that they wind up going up against far more technologically advanced forces and winning. Milo himself (in addition to being psionic and basically immortal to an extent similar to the guys from Highlander) knows a LOT about technology and modern tactics much like Caesar, but intentionally chooses not to have his current society based on it in rising from the ashes because he doesn't want them to depend on it. The basic argument being that his group of Barbarians pretty much live entirely off the land, and in skirmishes and such use stealth and the like to take down their enemies. They have little need for supply lines on a small scale, and pretty much everyone is a warrior due to the values of the culture. When it comes to massive battles, the leadership being familiar with technology means that they have the means to counter it by using "primitive means" you basically don't see these guys mindlessly panicing under the threat of "thundersticks" or whatever, and very much using their own siege engines and
the like. Of course to be fair The Horseclans also use psionically guided mutant elephants, telepathic (and sentinent) warcats, and it does help that the actual undying lords are nearly impossible to kill can fry people with their brains. Fallout doesn't really get much into the concept of "beneficial mutations" other than perhaps with the ghouls.
The point I'm getting at here is that as it's presented in Fallout the situation seems similar enough o have been inspired by that, with the "modern" military rivals being largely being dudes armed with assault rifles and guns, and typically only very specific groups of special forces operatives having the same kind of competence and individual abilities that the legions take for granted. Sure half a dozen guys in primitive armor running at a fortified position is a death wish, but in theory the legion should largely be acting a bit more stealthily in disputed territory, and when it comes to larger scale operations I'd imagine would be bringing out catapults and other weapons that are disdained by a more modern force, which also being post apocalyptic doesn't happen to maintain any technological equivilents due to there not being much in the way of tanks and stuff in circulation.
It should also be noted that for all of his semi-anti-tech approach Caesar also acted like Milo in that he seems to keep plenty of tech close at hand just in case, a lot of the elite troops and such using things like the "Ballistic Fists" and the like which pretty much means having an elite group of enemies in powered armor or something might play havoc with the general rank and file, but he's going to have his own elite forces packing enough tech to counter them.
This is all speculation on my part, because really, even in the design notes, it seems like the concept of the legion wasn't ever really explored, and it shallowness seems to be covered by the game more or less discouraging you to side with that faction (though you still can).
There are ways to justify it being a threat on the level presented, there was pretty much a whole series of books (as I mentioned) based loosely around the theme of a guy with modern knowledge dominating a post apocalyptic world by building a civilization of neo-barbarians, which in turn came into conflict with hold outs from the old world, other barbarians, mutants, and whatever else.