To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

[Geo Da Sponge]

Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

Spoiler: Very vague book information

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".

Issues with pacing in books 4 and 5 have been relatively well documented. There are two primary causes...

Spoiler

1) I'm sure you've heard Martin discuss "The Meereneese Knot". It's a term he uses to refer to the timeline surrounding events in Meereen, the geographical location of certain characters at the time certain events are happening, and what occurred to get them there. Originally he had planned for a 5 year gap between events at the end of A Storm of Swords and the beginning of the 4th book. Upon beginning to write it, he found he was over-relying on flashbacks, and decided to write it out instead. And he found that the logistics of it were an absolute nightmare. Which is why books 4 and 5 seem to be primarily comprised of people either traveling from point A to B in what feels like an extremely circuitous fashion, or chilling out in one place while events occur at glacial speed around them.

2) A reader pointed out to Martin at one point that he'd accidentally gender-swapped a horse between two books. Being caught in this relatively minor error apparently DEEPLY scarred the man (he spoke at length about how much it troubled him), and he's become consequentially obsessed with crossing every t and dotting every i. The pacing of the books has suffered.

One hopes that with books 4 and 5 (really one novel split in half) finished and most of the transitional details taken care of, Martin can get back to his original framework now and the pacing will pick back up. Due to 2, though, we can never be entirely sure.

One also suspects that Martin has become increasingly resentful of fan pressure over the years, and that ASOIAF has become something of a millstone for him. The guy always liked to flitter between projects and hobbies, and he seems to drag his feet more and more as the time pressure becomes more acute.

Cool explanation.

Still shoddy writing.

Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

Spoiler: Very vague book information

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".

Yeah I was interested in know if it had the same affect on the book readers as well. Can you tell me without spoiling, if the story gets better and if you started enjoying them again?

Nope. Everything got more and more 'meh' to me as virtually all of the characters become less and less effective. The previous events that got resolved start to feel meaningless, as yet more plot lines and problems get pulled out of a hat.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As a long-time reader of A Song of Ice and Fire... I agree. That was a very well-written scene that wound up badly choreographed. I knew the outcome, but I facepalmed when I watched it play out. They should have translated the fight more directly... but they would have needed a bigger Mountain.

I thought the choreography was fun and appropriate for a more visual medium, but the blocking on the eventual incident was bad. If I recall correctly, in the books, Oberyn is kind of leaning over the Mountain and gets grabbed. The topple/lift-up felt more awkward.

I've ALWAYS felt like the show has had issues with blocking/staging combat though. Comparatively, this was one of their triumphs.

Cool explanation.

Still shoddy writing.

I personally feel like there's some strong material in both volumes, but it's difficult for me to argue against complaints that the quality has declined. I just thought you might be interested in some of the reasons why.

 

[Magmarock]

Oh good lord, fanboy much.

"Fanboy" is a lazy, childish insult. I guarantee you I've spent more time whining about this show than you have, and likely louder and longer.

This right here is hilarious. I mean it, this is the funniest piece of text I have seen in a long time. Why would you say this, or say it in this way.

I'll admit it might have been a bit of a childish response since I didn't like the tone of your reply. But to then guarantee that you've been louder then I have almost as if turning it not a competition makes me lol. You contradicted yourself.

People who live in class houses shouldn't throw stones. Telling me to calm the fuck down after replying with so many paragraphs is quite ridiculous.

I'll assume you mean "glass houses" and I'm not sure how "number of paragraphs"...in this case a staggering four...is indicative of anything. You apparently once enjoyed a television program, and now you are throwing a strop because a tertiary character died a shocking death. I am telling you to "settle the fuck down" for your own benefit. I realize this is the internet, and you likely imagine me red of face with spittle flying from my mouth as I type that, but I'm just trying to get you to settle down. If appending the work "fuck" in there for comedic emphasis was what you found so wildly offensive as to come out swinging, I apologize. I assumed a little blue language was par for the course.

Well you're half right. It's not I who is imagining you as red faced its' you who is imaging me as red faced I think. I am not throwing a strop I am expressing my disappointment and concern that the show may have jumped the shark and pulled a Lost. Remember Lost, started great and then turned crap. I don?t want this to happen with GoT since it's one of a very few shows that I watch.

And you need accept that some of us don't especially those of us who open threads clearly requesting to keep the books out of it

A) That wasn't directed at you, I'm not sure why you're choosing to reply to it.
B) I'm not posting spoilers from the books, so I'm completely uncertain as to why you're acting like I'm not respecting your request in the first post.
C) You are aware the series is based ON the books, right? They're never irrelevant to what is going on.

No you're not posting spoilers but I felt that your comment distracted from the issue. Any criticism directed at the story presented in the show can not be excused by simply stating "well that's how it is in the book," because if that's the case the book bares the same criticism. Therefore it is irrelevant.

 

[42]

Look in all honesty, you just need to calm your tits. although things look bad, it does eventually get good for some. Just wait til the season is over.

 

[Magmarock]

regarding the show's future....well, since you asked to not be spoiled since you haven't read the books, it's hard to really answer that one beyond "I've read the books, I know what's coming, I'm not too worried about the course of the story as you are."

Yeah I've already had what happens next spoiled for a me a little bit. It's not really something I wanted people to answer just wanted to know how other people felt about it really. I still wish it was different;t both in show and book I guess you could say.

Look in all honesty, you just need to calm your tits. although things look bad, it does eventually get good for some. Just wait til the season is over.

why is everyone one telling me to calm down. I'm unhappy yes, but I'm not ragging.

 

[senordesol]

What I enjoy about GoT is how much it feels like historical fiction. There's no such thing as someone who's completely 'good and noble', and even if someone 'deserves' to win; it doesn't mean they will.

It really is a wonderful examination of the flaws of 'noble birth', chivalry, and other oft romanticized aspects of the Medieval period.

One of my favorite dissonant themes is with Jaime Lannister. He's called 'King Slayer', and that's meant as a derogatory term. Even though the king he slew was a murderous madman *AND* was an enemy of the Baratheon house, he's still reviled simply for the fact that he broke an oath -nevermind who he was supposed to be keeping that oath to.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This right here is hilarious. I mean it, this is the funniest piece of text I have seen in a long time. Why would you say this, or say it in this way.

You have low standards for comedy, my friend.

I'll admit it might have been a bit of a childish response since I didn't like the tone of your reply. But to then guarantee that you've been louder then I have almost as if turning it not a competition makes me lol. You contradicted yourself.

Oh I'm well aware that I hold the show to an impossible standard. That said, even by a relaxed standard, they fuck stuff up they really have no reason to fuck up. It's aggravating. As for "contradicting myself", I have no idea what on earth you are talking about. Apparently you still feel we're having some kind of argument. Let it go.

Well you're half right. It's not I who is imagining you as red faced its' you who is imaging me as red faced I think. I am not throwing a strop I am expressing my disappointment and concern that the show may have jumped the shark and pulled a Lost. Remember Lost, started great and then turned crap. I don?t want this to happen with GoT since it's one of a very few shows that I watch.

I remember Lost. The two shows are radically different. In order to 'pull a Lost' GoT would have to layer the show three assholes deep with mysteries they had no intention of solving, and do a dramatic left turn in the final season from "mystery plot-driven show" to "emotional character driven resolution". I didn't HATE the ending of Lost because I "got it", but I can certainly understand why people were pissed off. Your issue with GoT appears to focus around what TV Tropes calls:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

...which is really down to individual taste. Be careful looking at examples in there. You WILL find A Song of Ice and Fire, and there ARE spoilers.

Given you are at about the halfway point of Martin's narrative, I think it's a bit early to declare the series is all about "the bad guys win". It's rather like getting most of the way through Empire Strikes Back, shouting "What's this? Vader wins? Luke loses a hand? Hans frozen! Fuck this, this stupid series is all about the bad guys winning!". It's a bit...how to say...pre-emptive? Since we're not to SPOIL you, the next best route to take seemed to be to suggest you take a deep breath and keep watching. You're NOT going to get traditional fantasy "good triumphs" out of this show or series. You're not. But you're not going to get relentlessly buggered, either.

No you're not posting spoilers but I felt that your comment distracted from the issue. Any criticism directed at the story presented in the show can not be excused by simply stating "well that's how it is in the book," because if that's the case the book bares the same criticism. Therefore it is irrelevant.

Well, it's NOT though. The show either follows the framework of the books, or it goes off and does its own thing. And based on the quality we've had so far when it's done that, you do not want the show doing its own thing. Which means the event that occurred that pissed you off so much...Oberyn dying...that NEEDED to happen. There was no way around it. Short of the Mountain gently smothering him with a pillow, how exactly could the show have stayed faithful to the source material and not annoyed you?

If you have specific issues about how the show handled the choreography, or want to complain that Pascal made Oberyn too sympathetic, or want to complain the new Mountain was too huggy-bear, or any of a million other things, that's cool. When you start complaining that Oberyn DIED, though, then "That's what happened in the books" is, in fact, a fairly valid rebuttal. Why not keep Ned Stark alive, then? Why not undo the Red Wedding and have it be a lively, lovely affair? The entire narrative starts unspooling when you fuck around with major events. Even minor changes they've made have resulted in all kinds of weird, atonal bullshit and screwed up timelines.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

Petty, hedonistic lordling dies a horrific death that was kinda fairly obvious.
I got grossed out when I read and saw it, but it was always expected. I read that entire fight with a feeling of trepidation. Oberyn dies due to his character faults, he's a cocky cock. The His enemy is called The Mountain Who Rides, it was always going to happen, and referring to your gripes about the 'hero' dying, most of the Dornish court is casted for next season. There's plenty more sexy not-entirely-morally-bankrupt spanish people on the horizon.

People saying it was a Deus Ex Machina, should really re-watch every scene that Oberyn was in. It was entirely in his character to do what he did, and entirely in the Mountain's character (who has been fighting, killing and massacring for a couple of years solid) to use such a brutal and eye watering method to bring him down.

snip

I swear you've been debunked quite a few times on this subject? Armour isn't that heavy and people aren't always the best super fighters in the entire world of ever that they're made out to be. A man driven by vengeance and hatred gets distracted by vengeance and hatred. A man renowned for being a brutal, ungodly strong mofo turns out to be, a brutal, ungodly strong mofo.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

So I was eating a nectarine and I had an idea, and...

Spoiler

Am I a bad person?

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

So I was eating a nectarine and I had an idea, and...

Spoiler

Am I a bad person?

No.

You are a wonderful, wonderful person who deserves nothing but the best in life.


Mind if i steal that?

 

[The Funslinger]

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

There aren't any good guys in the show, though, at least not that are given screen time. There are undoubtedly some good peasants that the camera pans over on it's way to fixating on the photogenic noble lead characters.

All of the main characters are caught up with power-mongering at the expense of everything else, including of course human life. What are called the "good guys" like Tyrion Lannister just power-monger in a "soft" (manipulative) way, as opposed to "hard" (militant, direct) power-mongering like Tywin does. Oberyn might indeed have "sought justice" in a judge, jury, and executioner like format, but as a Prince we can surmise the travesty of death and destruction which allows him to maintain that privilege. The fact that he's good with weapons gives us some idea. Rather than root for Oberyn to "get justice", you should be rooting for a peasant revolt to get rid of all of these ridiculous and terrible people. I haven't read the books, but it seems clear that there's going to be massive death and destruction in store for Westeros and Essos if the "good" power-mongers keep fighting the "bad" ones for global control.

Game of Thrones shows what happens when power is the ruling idea in the lives of the most powerful people in the world, and how power corrupts even people without much of it. It's not a show with good guys and bad guys, it's a show with bad guys and extremely bad guys.

Quests for world domination never have any redeeming or positive features. They always include massive death and destruction followed by either failure (the world becomes an oligopoly ruled by multiple powers) or success (the world is tyrannicized by one power).

Agreed. I'd say the only definite good guy is Jon Snow, and that's only because trying to prevent a full on barbarian invasion and snow zombie apocalypse are fairly infallible motives. Anyone in his situation, with his exposure and comparative foreknowledge would probably do the same thing, though. Even Tywin.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

So I was eating a nectarine and I had an idea, and...

Spoiler

Am I a bad person?

No.

You are a wonderful, wonderful person who deserves nothing but the best in life.


Mind if i steal that?

Nooo by all means spread it.

Spread the juicy, gory love.

 

[Colour Scientist]

No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that.

I've just realised why this word seemed so familiar to me.

Spoiler

 

[MisterGobbles]

ITT: People getting angry over someone dying in Game of Thrones.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the frying pan.

In all seriousness though, it's not really fair to judge based on the final moments of an episode that's not even close to being the finale of the season, though given the intensity of the moment I can understand those who would do so. Wait for this season's story to finish playing out before making any sweeping judgements. Some of the most intense stuff is yet to come.

 

[elvor0]

So I was eating a nectarine and I had an idea, and...

Spoiler

Am I a bad person?

Oh man....that is. You win the internets, I've just watched the episode and I'm still reeling but that's fucking gold.

-snip for space-
I must admit though that this left a particularly bitter and mean spirited after taste. For the first time I find myself unhappy with the writers discussion and the direction the story is going.

You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.

So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?

Yeah I'm pretty pissed and shocked that Oberyn died. I really liked him as a character, the actor portrayed him in a way that had me relly invested him, we finally had a character that fit in with the heroic ideal and justice would be done, I genuinely believed and he'd win and had won. And then he died. In the most painfully uncerimonial way. But I'm not angry, I'm pissed he's dead, but not that he died, if you catch my drift. That's how the story goes, it wasn't bullshit, it wasn't forced, that's just how it goes.

Ultimately, FAR more people would've been pissed if Oberyn had won. That's not what happened, we'd all be screaming bloody murder if Boromir survived in LotR. I was appalled at the amount they changed The Hobbit for no reason at fucking all.

It's based on the books, and that's what happened, they're not going to change that. Yeah there's been some anchronisms and slight alterations, but nothing that effects the overall plot or story. If Oberyn survived, suddenly you've got a man walking around who's dead before and a dead man who's supposed to be alive(presumably the mountain DOES survive this), it'd change the plot far too much and would be considered fan service of the worst kind.

I thought the fight could've gone either way before it happened, it /is/ GoT afterall, but I got caught up in the moment. I was even more shocked by this than when Ned died, I should be used to it by now, but it looked like he'd won, the fight wasn't on a knife edge, as far as I was concerned, he'd won.

Then I was slapped in the face and brutally reminded that George Martin lives under a bridge made of bridges, on a planet shaped like a bridge.

 

[hazabaza1]

they established Oberyn as a fighting genius

Uuuuh, no? They established him as someone who was willing to enter a fight with the strongest known man in the world and swagger around half drunk, with no helmet, shouting accusations.
Don't get me wrong, I liked him too. I liked book Oberyn, and once we got past "gawrsh he sure likes sex" in the show I liked show Oberyn, but after The Mountain was floored his focus was soley on the accusation and embarrassing the Lannisters.
Maybe if Oberyn fell when he was focused he could jump up again with this Ukemi thing you're on about. Maybe if he didn't fall directly on the hand of the seven foot giant he would survive. But he went in, didn't kill his opponent and expected to not get his face exploded. He was cocky and stupid.

Besides, you might want to go re-watch some of the more entertaining scenes for a bit. We've got a grand total of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happening for roughly three more seasons once this one ends.

 

[DEAD34345]

If you are seriously annoyed by this latest fight, then I'm sorry, but I just don't think Game of Thrones is the story for you. Likewise if you think there are "good guys" and "bad guys". Both the series and the book have repeatedly drilled in the message that this is not a fair world, there's no karma, "good" actions are often punished and "evil" ones are often rewarded.

Frankly I'm surprised you haven't given up on it earlier, to complain about this now is ridiculous. Also having read the books, I'll warn you now, it isn't going to change any time soon. Being honourable, being just, even being a cool character, none of that improves your chances in The Song of Ice And Fire series. That's one of the many things that makes it interesting to me, but if it's not for you it's not for you.

 

[Mullac]

I found it to be the most distressing death in GoT to date, yes, more so than the Red Wedding. I think it was mainly the actual way he died, it was just so gruesome and vivid - that scream! Oh my God!

I actually found myself covering my mouth in amazement, that's rare and I feel like a sissy.

 

[RandV80]

Maybe the OP should switch to the other Game of Thrones version:

 

[Dansen]

Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

Spoiler: Very vague book information

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".

Allegedly there is going to be a time skip. Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons are just there to lay the ground work for said time skip, which makes a lot of sense. You can't have all these major things happen in such a short period of time and still maintain realism. Can't remember where I heard it but it was from a bigger fan than me I'm sure of that.