Tokyo's "Anti-Anime" Bill Sparks Convention Wars

[acosn]

The flip side of not censoring content is that you literally get people who produce works that contain smut for the sake of smut, or even for sexual gratification.

This may be distasteful to some, but I fail to see why there is anything wrong with it. A proper rating system and active, involved parenting remedy the risk of children being exposed to material that will irredeemably corrupt them for life, mind, body, and soul.

You actually answer that question further down below.

I think (hope) we can all agree that an anti-loli/pedo bill is good.

First, this bill is not anti-loli. Loli is already classified AO in Japan. This bill allows the Municipal Gov't to reclassify a broad, unspecific spectrum of "socially harmful" material as AO, arbitrarily and without oversight.

Second, I do not agree that an anti-loli bill is good. A drawing or a story of a crime is not morally equivalent to a crime. I only agree to laws that prevent crimes and protect victims. Loli involves neither.

They have every right to restrict who can view what, but without transparency its open license to basically be a morals committee. And how exactly do you quantify this stuff? Remember when the US was grappling with this issue?

"I can't tell you what offensive material is, but I know it when I see it."

Its a poorly written bill with the right idea, but like many other things I see it causing more harm than good.

 

[RagnorakTres]

Alright, I've been reading this thread for a while now, thought I'd lay my thoughts thus far out.

From my understanding, there is no governmental rating system for manga (in either Ye Olde Nippon or America) beyond "AO" and "not AO." Now, I'm conflicted over whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand, an informed consumer is a happy consumer. On the other, manga and anime are both subject to the Animation Age Ghetto[footnote]A tendency by adults to believe that any animation, regardless of content or context, is intended for consumption by minors.[/footnote], and an ESRB-type system would likely (but not necessarily) be influenced by it as well.

Now, my understanding of the bill is that it does not create an ESRB-type system[footnote]What I'm thinking of is a standardized ratings system with clearly laid-out and easily accessible criteria.[/footnote], but rather a board, likely headed by this Ishihara[footnote]All the info I've turned up on him paints him as a man who would qualify for a particularly vicious haircut, ending somewhere around the knees.[/footnote] character or at least by people who share his views, which, with no oversight, can qualify a work as "damaging" and move it from one extreme ("not AO") to the other ("AO").

I can clearly see several ways in which this board could be exploited, both by unscrupulous publishers and by corrupt government officials. Take it as given that AO titles will sell far less than non-AO titles, it is in a publisher's best interests to eliminate any content that might be seen as damaging, regardless of artistic value. Unscrupulous publishers could bribe the board to ignore their works and relegate a competitor's to the back room. A corrupt governmental official could use it to push an issue (e.g. gay rights) to the back room, removing it from the public consciousness even further.

The current system is less than ideal, clearly, or there wouldn't be enough support to get something like this through. But this bill is a mistake, it's too vague and too easy to exploit. I feel like there needs to be gradation, much like the ESRB codes here in America. The ESRB is not perfect, obviously, it suffers from the West's fear of sexuality and fails (in my opinion) to correctly value violence. It has prolonged gaming's image as "for manchildren by manchildren" for far too long and is due for an overhaul. But it provides important information to the savvy consumer and, even with its failings, is a successful example of noninvasive governmental oversight in the media.[footnote]EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that the ESRB is not a government regulated body, but a non-profit organization created by consumers for consumers. My apologies for not doing my research correctly.[/footnote]

I don't expect perfection in initial legislation, I understand how democracies work too well for that, but I know for a fact that Tokyo can do a damn sight better than this.

 

[Flamezdudes]

In a way, I do agree with this law. You can clearly see how many female girls are shown in anime a lot of the time, I may not watch anime but I occasionally see it and manga as my friends love them, what I see are many young girls which short skirts and large breasts sometimes.
It is getting rediculous.

 

[LordFisheh]

And so yet another government tries to pass a convenient law allowing it to start censoring 'harmful' material whenever it wants (and anything anything else it doesn't like while people aren't looking).

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I might offend something with this post but such is not my intention, here goes.

Japan, what do you have? Seriously, what?

You have anime, manga, ninja and the samurai, you may have other things (and likely things in between or related in ways) but ultimately when people think Japan, that is what they think of.

If you start whacking anime and manga (ecchi is a HUGE part of it, and giving the government total control of what is okay and what isn't is always a scary thought) then you are destroying a major part of what makes you special. There is no other nation in the world like Japan, and destroying things like that won't help you, it may sound helpful at first but ultimately things like that can't be blamed for the actions of certain individuals.

Please don't start destroying what makes your country special. If America started limiting freedom more with good intentions would they not still be destroying part of what makes them special?

Maybe it's just me but I'm feeling really disconnected from politicians and the like who don't even look at such mediums as games, anime and manga, and yet STILL they judge them. How is that happening? Don't we, as people of the nations have a say in this?

 

[Toriver]

I might offend something with this post but such is not my intention, here goes.

Japan, what do you have? Seriously, what?

You have anime, manga, ninja and the samurai, you may have other things (and likely things in between or related in ways) but ultimately when people think Japan, that is what they think of.

If you start whacking anime and manga (ecchi is a HUGE part of it, and giving the government total control of what is okay and what isn't is always a scary thought) then you are destroying a major part of what makes you special. There is no other nation in the world like Japan, and destroying things like that won't help you, it may sound helpful at first but ultimately things like that can't be blamed for the actions of certain individuals.

Please don't start destroying what makes your country special. If America started limiting freedom more with good intentions would they not still be destroying part of what makes them special?

Maybe it's just me but I'm feeling really disconnected from politicians and the like who don't even look at such mediums as games, anime and manga, and yet STILL they judge them. How is that happening? Don't we, as people of the nations have a say in this?

That's what nerds like us think about when they think about Japan. As I have mentioned in other threads, sometimes we need to take a step back and think about things from a non-nerd perspective. It's hard, considering that most of us have been nerds our whole lives, but if we do, we can better understand how this came about, because this law was passed and supported by non-nerds, not by nerds. I can tell you that many non-nerds see Japan very differently. They think of samurai and ninja as you said, but also sushi, martial arts, high tech, cars, bullet trains, World War II, and Mt. Fuji, and they would probably think of at least some of those things before anime and manga. And in the eyes of most Japanese I know, and from what I gather in the media, they believe they are seen for those things far more than for anime and manga, or at least, that's how they want themselves to be seen. They want to be known more for their traditional culture than for their pop culture. And to many non-nerds, this is true. To nerds, it's a bit different, but we have been "different" from the mainstream pretty much forever. So with this in mind, I hope you can understand how this really isn't a big deal in this country. It's really only the otaku, who are social pariahs in Japan to begin with, that are making a big deal of this.

Oh, and personally, although I am not really supportive of this law, the above statement is related to one other benefit I see. When non-nerds do think of anime and manga, it tends to be in a rather negative light, precisely because of the things they are cracking down on in this law. Namely, the ultra-violence and sexualized images of schoolgirls and the like (not to mention the porn and lolicon, which are already relegated to the back room). As I mentioned in the above post, hopefully the anime and manga producers will wake up and put the brakes on the road they're traveling with their current offerings. Not that what is out there now isn't entertaining; but it's leading down a pretty ridiculous path, and I'm not sure what I would think, or what others would think, if the trend continues.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I might offend something with this post but such is not my intention, here goes.

Japan, what do you have? Seriously, what?

You have anime, manga, ninja and the samurai, you may have other things (and likely things in between or related in ways) but ultimately when people think Japan, that is what they think of.

If you start whacking anime and manga (ecchi is a HUGE part of it, and giving the government total control of what is okay and what isn't is always a scary thought) then you are destroying a major part of what makes you special. There is no other nation in the world like Japan, and destroying things like that won't help you, it may sound helpful at first but ultimately things like that can't be blamed for the actions of certain individuals.

Please don't start destroying what makes your country special. If America started limiting freedom more with good intentions would they not still be destroying part of what makes them special?

Maybe it's just me but I'm feeling really disconnected from politicians and the like who don't even look at such mediums as games, anime and manga, and yet STILL they judge them. How is that happening? Don't we, as people of the nations have a say in this?

That's what nerds like us think about when they think about Japan. As I have mentioned in other threads, sometimes we need to take a step back and think about things from a non-nerd perspective. It's hard, considering that most of us have been nerds our whole lives, but if we do, we can better understand how this came about, because this law was passed and supported by non-nerds, not by nerds. I can tell you that many non-nerds see Japan very differently. They think of samurai and ninja as you said, but also sushi, martial arts, high tech, cars, bullet trains, World War II, and Mt. Fuji, and they would probably think of at least some of those things before anime and manga. And in the eyes of most Japanese I know, and from what I gather in the media, they believe they are seen for those things far more than for anime and manga, or at least, that's how they want themselves to be seen. They want to be known more for their traditional culture than for their pop culture. And to many non-nerds, this is true. To nerds, it's a bit different, but we have been "different" from the mainstream pretty much forever. So with this in mind, I hope you can understand how this really isn't a big deal in this country. It's really only the otaku, who are social pariahs in Japan to begin with, that are making a big deal of this.

Oh, and personally, although I am not really supportive of this law, the above statement is related to one other benefit I see. When non-nerds do think of anime and manga, it tends to be in a rather negative light, precisely because of the things they are cracking down on in this law. Namely, the ultra-violence and sexualized images of schoolgirls and the like (not to mention the porn and lolicon, which are already relegated to the back room). As I mentioned in the above post, hopefully the anime and manga producers will wake up and put the brakes on the road they're traveling with their current offerings. Not that what is out there now isn't entertaining; but it's leading down a pretty ridiculous path, and I'm not sure what I would think, or what others would think, if the trend continues.

I under-emphasized what Japan had when I was explaining it, or else I likely wouldn't have gotten this comment. When I said ninja and samurai I was (vaguely, I admit) referring to their past and culture and I also agree they have some technological advancements that are impressive but I still stand by what I said that some of said things shouldn't be under government control (I also read you agreed with me, don't worry) but as a nerd I can tell you that this is a gigantic part of Japan and they can't simply chop it off or take control because they don't understand our part, which is somewhat what you were telling me about. I DO understand that there is more but like I said you can't just declare it void because you have no interest in it and have never tried it.

In the section that you say I need to step back and think of Japan, I disagree, because I already understand that Japan has things and people who don't understand and don't want to be part of this. One thing I do agree with is that some people take some things too far, for example I've never felt the inclination to play a rape game, and I don't think I would mind if they wiped that off the face of the earth. But one thing I don't do (and this is a clear line from gamers/non-gamers and otaku/non-otaku) is that I don't blame games or anime/manga for the actions of people, I'd be more inclined to blame society and peer pressure, but I don't want to get too off-topic.

 

[MrJoyless]

This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.

art is art...and CP is CP

seriously tho this law takes things in VERY much the wrong direction i feel almost everyone is missing the point...

Japan is one of the last civilized nations that allows the sexual depiction of children as long as its animated this law is aimed to stop something that is not art...its sick and if you think adults having sex with children is art then you too are sick...

this law does go too far in its language but with a closer look maybe this nasty little loophole that has existed for waaaay too long might finally be closed.

 

[SilverUchiha]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

censorship = evil

Why can't we just let the artists do what they want? Isn't that what being an artist is all about?

 

[acosn]

I'd relate the finer parts of what quantifies plot devices but I don't think you'd actually understand.

The flip side of not censoring content is that you literally get people who produce works that contain smut for the sake of smut, or even for sexual gratification.

I'd point out though that laws worded like this would have banned the Cistine Chapel and countless works from classical art and literature because they're depicting naked babies.

And shit, if smut about people under the age of 18 is screwed up, what makes the same but pertaining to babies?

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. What conversation do you think you're a part of? It's obviously not the one I was in.

I don't know where your quote got into it. It wasn't directed at you.

 

[CrazyMedic]

Well done Japan. I'm not one for censorship, myself, but this bill will go a long way toward helping your international standing. After all, the old "Japan's major export is Tentacle Rape" joke is going from old, to just plain embarassing. Get rid of that crap and try to focus on improving and modernizing an art form that is undeniably linked to your national culture.

As for the event, whatever, conventions come and go. They're fun, they're useful, but I doubt there's such a thing as "event loyalty". One hall of like-minded hobbyists is the same as the next, the one that represents the people should be the one that survives.

I would agree with you but the way the law is worded it is basically a "these guys made fun of the prime minster now to find grounds to ban it" kind of law a specific law I am fine with not one like this.

 

[Grimrider6]

art is art...and CP is CP

seriously tho this law takes things in VERY much the wrong direction i feel almost everyone is missing the point...

Japan is one of the last civilized nations that allows the sexual depiction of children as long as its animated this law is aimed to stop something that is not art...its sick and if you think adults having sex with children is art then you too are sick...

this law does go too far in its language but with a closer look maybe this nasty little loophole that has existed for waaaay too long might finally be closed.

I repeat again, a drawn depiction of a crime is not morally equivalent to a crime. Loli manga is lines on paper, nothing more. Can you explain why a drawing should be illegal based purely on it's content?

 

[Grimrider6]

Fight it! fight it like a bad case of herpes!


Fight for your artistic freedom Japan.

Row, Row, Fight the Power!

fify

Remember, even you gaijin outside Japan can help! Dan Kanemitsu explains how:

http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/something-people-overseas-can-do-fight-misconceptions-about-bill-156-and-japan/

 

[ph0b0s123]

what I see are many young girls which short skirts and large breasts sometimes.
It is getting rediculous.

Whoa, large breasts are a problem now? I would have thought that by being large breasted they would be last thing a pedophile would be interested....

 

[Mcface]

Seriously if you cant make a story without having a 10 year old girl have sex or be naked, then your shit deserves to be banned.

U mad pedophiles?

 

[bruunwald]

My love of anime and hatred of censorship aside, the issue of sexualizing youngsters in anime is one long in need of being brought up, if for no other reason than it is probably #1 on the list of Cliche Anime Tropes from Which the Genre Seems Incapable of Escaping and that Causes Anime to Linger in a Rut of Complete Predictability.

More specifically, the obsession with youth on the part of popular Japanese creators means that nearly every hero is going to be about 12 to 14 years old, and if that hero also happens to be female, she is more likely than not going to have the body and sophistication of a 30-year-old. It's a case of having your cake and eating it too, no doubt. On the one hand, youth obsession makes an older hero out of the question. On the other hand, sexy body = larger audience.

Now, I have a lot of questions about what this means in the larger scope of Japanese society, and even some theories about dirty old men. But my main point is that the largest part of the genre - manga included - is in a fantastic, terrible rut of formula from which it can't escape, largely due to this youth obsession.

This is a supposedly highly imaginative genre which has suffered for a long time now, from a patent lack of imagination. Maybe something like this will shake it up and force these creators to think in new directions.