Tomb Raider Dev: Rape is Not in Our Vocabulary
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
Goddam, I do not understand the gaming fan base anymore! We are ok with headstomping, torture and shooting innocent civilians in an airport, but soon as it comes to 'rape' everything suddenly becomes sensitive? Since when did rape become worse than glorifying murder and war crimes? We see it on television all the time!
I think the community really needs to grow up, this is just pathetic.
I think the community really needs to grow up, this is just pathetic.
Youvé got your chronology wrong. This predates TvW. Even if TvW was the spark, the gas had been flooding the house for hours before it blew.cursedseishi said:
Just out of Curiosity, was there any fuss in Resident Evil 4 when the same thing happened there? In one scene we see Leon looking for Ashley. He ends up in a security room, and one of the infected mercenaries is petting Ashley then pushes her to a wall when she fights back.
Was there any backlash then or is it NOW people feel the need to ask about this?
Was there any backlash then or is it NOW people feel the need to ask about this?
A lot of violence is also played silly. THIS is being played "serious" and comes off offensive as a result. CD is not smart enough to handle this subject matter and their defense of it is just full of holes.flames09 said:
So it'd be less offensive if it didn't portray it seriously at all? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say, but it's quite clearly in the wording. If one cannot portray rape seriously, and one cannot portray it jokingly, how CAN it be presented? Never? Fuck that, that's censorship.Aiddon said:
And yeah, it's realistic in the trailer. Scared DOES NOT equal helpless or subjected, being frightened is a natural reaction and everyone who's getting pissed off about it is a fucking moron. I don't give a flying fuck what gender you are, if that Solid Snake clone in the trailer was frisking your ass you'd probably be fucking scared too. Everyone crying "SEXIST" is ridiculous and over-reactionary, even if you don't like how it's handled in the trailer. The world's not out to please you. (Not whoever I quoted at this point, this whole second paragraph is aimed at anyone who can't sit quiet when someone upsets their pussy sensibilities.)
Perhaps your sentiment would be better expressed without the polemic rant, the vitriol, and the histrionics. Or at the very least, not broad-brushing the community.flames09 said:
I mean, yeah. I get what you're saying. "violence is okay but rape isn't? Why?"
Just try and leave the rest at the door.
Jim Sterling did a video on this very site on this very topic and makes some very solid points. Since you're here anyway, why not check it out? You may disagree, but at least you will have some grounding.
They should've stuck to their guns. Rape is perfectly acceptable to use in media. Now, they come off as nonchalant towards rape, something that one could argue actually is sexist.
I take my hat off to you, good sir.Cheesepower5 said:
If the game was a 'authentically realistic experience then it wouldn't be called Tomb Raider but instead would be titled, Hostage Negotiator : The case of the Croft Heiress. Much the same way, if the first Indiana Jones movie was a 'authentically realistic' experience it would be subtitled, 'and the death camp of Auswitz'. Minor spoiler warning here, there would not be a sequel to Indiana Jones and the death camp of Auswitz.GloatingSwine said:
So really that isn't much of a counter argument, is it?
The media conception of 'realism' is often just as removed from the banalities of reality as Hollywood impressionism, essentially the difference between Nolan's Batman and Whedon's Avengers. Even 'reality television' genre is nothing more than days upon days of tedious footage cut down, edited, cut down and edited again into its most interesting elements and then cobbled back together into something that might catch the interest of people who have absolutely nothing better to do with their time.
Don't you see? This is what happens when you let realism start creeping in and messing around with our escapism
As individuals each of you have done absolutely nothing wrong in expressing your opinions, but as a collective demographic your shit is all over the place. I've been told before that feminism is not a monolith, but I'll be damned if that concept isn't brought into sharp focus once different feminists start making separate often contradictory demands to how women ought to be depicted in entertainment media.Phasmal said:
Also please realise that when you ask for realism, any amount of additional realism, what you will really get is grime and grit. More sex. More violence. More dark. More grim. Icky themes. Uncomfortable concepts. As a general rule the less striking the visual presentation, and sexual exploitation of the human form can count as striking visual presentation even if it's lazy as hell, typically the more grime and grit is added to keep people interested. And the further things move in that direction the harder it is to stop the ball from moving way past your comfort zone. Which is not to say down on the really exploitive end of things you can't have sexual exploitation, grime and grit all in the same serving but I digress. The point is the level of griminess in the character is proportionate to the griminess of the setting. Both are interconnected or a in the audience's perceptions occurs as one or the other seems out of place.
I would have to say that the combination of youthful inexperience, realism and dingy developing world locale, but the spectre of rape was always going to loam over the proceedings as soon as Lara showed the slightest sign of apprehension when confronted with human male opponents.
Surprisingly there are people that upon taking someone prisoner, would consider raping them. Reality sucks, humans suck, complaining about a reflection of this in a video game isn't going to change it.
I think he's got a point.
The gaming media (and other media), including the Escapist, is doing exactly what happened during the whole 'Mass Effect sex controversy' and numerous other instances of such bad reporting. There isn't a rape scene in the new Tomb Raider trailer. There may be an attempted rape scene, but if you can't understand the difference then you probably shouldn't be writing about it in the first place.
Also, this whole controversy has shown exactly what the problem is with the gaming community right now. In that trailer Lara is beaten, broken, bloodied, pushed to the limits of her endurance and beyond and discovers the strength to do things she never thought she could. It's a harrowing, at times painful to watch experience that reminds us that to become the badass we know and love, Lara has to face real adversity.
Oh yeah, and part of that adversity is that someone attempts to rape her, at which point she ends up killing him.
In a sane world, the murder of a another human being, even in self defence, might raise a few more questions than an attempted rape. The fact Lara has to kill animals to survive. The fact that she witnesses evidence of cannibalism maybe worth a mention.
Has any of that been mentioned in a single article on the Tomb Raider trailer? Nope, didn't think so. The gaming community needs to grow up and get a little perpective. The only reason this is a 'controversy' is because it has been made into one, exactly the same way that Mass Effect's sex controversy was made one by people who hadn't even played the game.
'Mass Effect can be customized to sodomise whatever, whomever, however, the game player wishes... with its ?over the net? capabilities virtual orgasmic rape is just the push of a button away.'
Remember that? Remember how dumb they all sounded for focusing on one tiny aspect of a game where there was a whole world of genocide and trauma to focus on? Are we aware of the concept of irony?
Here's a wacky notion. If you're going to focus on something from the trailer, focus on the death, cannibalism, and amount of pain Lara suffers. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, don't comment on a game that hasn't even been released yet. All manner of things could change between now and the actual release date.
Oh, and the fact that likely that ATTEMPTED rape scene is probably going to be removed because the community kicked up such a fuss about it? That can only be for the bad. If gamers cry out in outrage every time a game includes something controversial that doesn't fit into our very narrow wordlview how exactly do you think the medium is going to evolve to be able to deal with sensitive topics such as drug use, sexuality and sexual violence, and the more widespread topic of violence and its application? Eventually developers will stop including depictions of anything other than bland white male protagonists gunning down non-specific alien invaders, just to make sure no one could possibly be offended, and gaming will stagnate and end.
The gaming media (and other media), including the Escapist, is doing exactly what happened during the whole 'Mass Effect sex controversy' and numerous other instances of such bad reporting. There isn't a rape scene in the new Tomb Raider trailer. There may be an attempted rape scene, but if you can't understand the difference then you probably shouldn't be writing about it in the first place.
Also, this whole controversy has shown exactly what the problem is with the gaming community right now. In that trailer Lara is beaten, broken, bloodied, pushed to the limits of her endurance and beyond and discovers the strength to do things she never thought she could. It's a harrowing, at times painful to watch experience that reminds us that to become the badass we know and love, Lara has to face real adversity.
Oh yeah, and part of that adversity is that someone attempts to rape her, at which point she ends up killing him.
In a sane world, the murder of a another human being, even in self defence, might raise a few more questions than an attempted rape. The fact Lara has to kill animals to survive. The fact that she witnesses evidence of cannibalism maybe worth a mention.
Has any of that been mentioned in a single article on the Tomb Raider trailer? Nope, didn't think so. The gaming community needs to grow up and get a little perpective. The only reason this is a 'controversy' is because it has been made into one, exactly the same way that Mass Effect's sex controversy was made one by people who hadn't even played the game.
'Mass Effect can be customized to sodomise whatever, whomever, however, the game player wishes... with its ?over the net? capabilities virtual orgasmic rape is just the push of a button away.'
Remember that? Remember how dumb they all sounded for focusing on one tiny aspect of a game where there was a whole world of genocide and trauma to focus on? Are we aware of the concept of irony?
Here's a wacky notion. If you're going to focus on something from the trailer, focus on the death, cannibalism, and amount of pain Lara suffers. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, don't comment on a game that hasn't even been released yet. All manner of things could change between now and the actual release date.
Oh, and the fact that likely that ATTEMPTED rape scene is probably going to be removed because the community kicked up such a fuss about it? That can only be for the bad. If gamers cry out in outrage every time a game includes something controversial that doesn't fit into our very narrow wordlview how exactly do you think the medium is going to evolve to be able to deal with sensitive topics such as drug use, sexuality and sexual violence, and the more widespread topic of violence and its application? Eventually developers will stop including depictions of anything other than bland white male protagonists gunning down non-specific alien invaders, just to make sure no one could possibly be offended, and gaming will stagnate and end.
The thing is: you're allowed to think that, or not. It isn't unreasonable speculation that you're making here at all, but it isn't something anyone who didn't care to think about ever had to think about before. That's the difference with the current presentation.Deshin said:
Both of those times it was played for laughs rather than drama (although they had dramatic consequences) and they weren't advertised as character-defining moments.Just Plain Lazy said:
I agree that the sexual assault/attempted rape should not have been the talking point of the game, nor should it be the main point of the game. It should be one incident of many* that develop this new(?) Lara Croft they're going for.
* Many life-and-death, fight-or-flight incidents that is, not sexual assaults and/or attempted rapes.
All the projections... wow.
This is a ridiculous event in any case. I mean, really, we should just stop portraying women in videogames, period. First we are doing it wrong because they are like women and not the most able to defend themselves, then we are doing it wrong because they are the heroes, and by extension more masculine in the public view of it. We could take them completely out, but then there would be backlash because they would be under represented in the medium. All of this back and forth gets old. All the people who jump on this shit are children. This company has zero balls because they chose to portray a thing that happens in real life (yes, groping is sexual assault, but that isn't exclusive to men groping women) and then they back pedal like idiots. All the people attacking this are equal morons because this shit happens, and pretending it doesn't will not make it go away. And some women this happens to are made stronger for the experience. Others aren't so lucky or able to deal with it, probably most. As a character, is she supposed to have been born a fearless TRex fighter? She doesn't have military training, so it had to start somewhere. Perhaps a traumatic event that drove her to become more than she is?
Also, to point out the obvious... no one was raped.... So why is that word used exclusively in reference to this particular issue. The projections the popular media put to this are mind numbing. The main demonization that I see is that the development staff is chiefly male, therefore not allowed to talk about it.
This is a ridiculous event in any case. I mean, really, we should just stop portraying women in videogames, period. First we are doing it wrong because they are like women and not the most able to defend themselves, then we are doing it wrong because they are the heroes, and by extension more masculine in the public view of it. We could take them completely out, but then there would be backlash because they would be under represented in the medium. All of this back and forth gets old. All the people who jump on this shit are children. This company has zero balls because they chose to portray a thing that happens in real life (yes, groping is sexual assault, but that isn't exclusive to men groping women) and then they back pedal like idiots. All the people attacking this are equal morons because this shit happens, and pretending it doesn't will not make it go away. And some women this happens to are made stronger for the experience. Others aren't so lucky or able to deal with it, probably most. As a character, is she supposed to have been born a fearless TRex fighter? She doesn't have military training, so it had to start somewhere. Perhaps a traumatic event that drove her to become more than she is?
Also, to point out the obvious... no one was raped.... So why is that word used exclusively in reference to this particular issue. The projections the popular media put to this are mind numbing. The main demonization that I see is that the development staff is chiefly male, therefore not allowed to talk about it.
Can someone explain to me how the developers claiming that their PR guy was wrong is somehow "not sticking to their guns"?
Frankly, I find it more likely that their E3 presenter was doing his own shit with his "protection" and "challenge to overcome" lines than that the developers wanted those lines themselves. With E3 as the example, it's pretty damn common for the marketing guys at E3 to be full of shit and/or terribly sexist/offensive.
Frankly, I find it more likely that their E3 presenter was doing his own shit with his "protection" and "challenge to overcome" lines than that the developers wanted those lines themselves. With E3 as the example, it's pretty damn common for the marketing guys at E3 to be full of shit and/or terribly sexist/offensive.
Apparently "Controversy" is not in their vocabulary either. Developers really need to man up and challenge the public. Say, "Yes, this is a touchy subject. Yes, it might make some people uncomfortable. But it's done plenty in movies, and video games are becoming a mature enough medium that we can address these issues as well." Between this and Lollipop Chainsaw, video games are going to stay a juvenile medium forever.
getting tired hearing about this crap.
yes, CD screwed it up what they said. and even if there is no rape at all, what this guy is doing is attempted rape. touching her ass and kissing her neck is a clear indication what he will do.
i can understand that they want to give lara a reason to kill someone and show her emotionally how shocked she was after that kill. thats all fine but i also think that they should have chosen a different route for her to kill someone.
but well, cant be helped now. the media is anyway packed with retards who twist the truth or a story to get some attention.
im still looking forward to this game.
yes, CD screwed it up what they said. and even if there is no rape at all, what this guy is doing is attempted rape. touching her ass and kissing her neck is a clear indication what he will do.
i can understand that they want to give lara a reason to kill someone and show her emotionally how shocked she was after that kill. thats all fine but i also think that they should have chosen a different route for her to kill someone.
but well, cant be helped now. the media is anyway packed with retards who twist the truth or a story to get some attention.
im still looking forward to this game.
They didn't get "called out". They got deliberately misinterpreted. Reporters could have written articles about how unfortunate the word choice of "protect" was instead of "empathise", or how they should have communicated that the game isn't really about rape.maninahat said:
But they didn't do that, they did their best to put it in the worst possible light, with the most selective choice of words just for controversy's sake, like how "In Tomb Raider, you will want to protect Lara from rape" or "groping isn't sexual assault according to CD".
If you say something to your friends that could potentially interpret as you admitting that you are having sex with your mother, and they spend the next weeks accusing you of having sex with your mother, they are not "calling you out" on it, they are just bullying.
Simply saying that "they were idiots, they deserved it", is wrong. Even idiots shouldn't be blamed if they are victims of malice. NO ONE deserves to get intentionally misinterpreted by the media.