Tomb Raider Dev: Rape is Not in Our Vocabulary

[BrotherRool]

Wow this has turned into a disaster. I like the new Tomb Raider but this guy needs to Stop. Talking. Now.

Well, what's a disaster? Is some reactionairy hypersensitive Americans and a few extremist feminists being angry the same as a disaster?

What he's saying now is not good stuff to be saying. 'He just wants a grope' it's like a freakin' Borat sketch now, or In the Thick Of It 'She orally pleased me but we did not have sexual intercourse'

At first he was being fine, the game was fine, there wasn't anything questionable about his motives or the scene itself and now he is just digging the most ridiculous hole.

And rape is an important issue, I never used to understand why but now I've seen more stuff I find it hard to see any scene in a film. There are a crud load of victims and lots of normal people with difficult lives can have really bad reactions or flashbacks from even the merest intention of a film, so unlike most things, discussion of how rape is being presented in fiction isn't really some reactionary thing only affecting moral white knights. Most of the white knighters don't even know enough to know what they're talking about probably.

So although we get bombarded with reactionists, I don't think that's necessarily true of this situation. I don't know you of course and maybe you've had some experience of the affect this particular issue has on peoples lives, and maybe a lot more than most, in which case I'll bow to you in this matter, but otherwise I think maybe it's a little too easy to be dismissive of these things. And whatever the case I hope we can both agree that this guy is not having a mature discussion about this, but is in fact putting his foot in it

 

[lacktheknack]

Speaking only for myself: guess how sick to death I am of female characters getting sexually victimized in fiction. Go ahead, toss out an estimate. Lara Croft was one of the few who hadn't been caught up in that particular cliche, and now here we are again.

Oh come on, really? It's a cliche because it's a legitimate hazard. Lara Croft goes around the globe into ruins and ancient temples to go treasure hunting and on the way she more often than not bumps into other treasure hunters, bandits, militia, hired mercs, etc. I'm pretty sure she has to put up with "attempted" rape every friggin weekend. You think some bandit looting a temple isn't going to turn around and see Ms. Big Tits waltz through the main door and NOT want to get a piece of her?

Pick any Tomb Raider game, a good 50% of the human enemies she killed would have probably raped her given the chance; half of them probably wouldn't have even minded if she was alive or not.

This is also true. I mean, how many creepy males has she fought with less than great reputations?

Game One/Eight: The creepy trio of thugs.

Game Two: The mafia.

Game Three: The RX Techies, the Immortals (at first), the staff of Area 51.

Game Four: the assault crews.

Game Five: Pretty much all the enemies.

Game Six: The cult.

Game Seven: The Yakuza, Rutland's personal army.

Game Nine: Antagonist's personal army.

Game Ten: A bunch of ruthless pirates on a secluded island.

I dare you to tell me that she wasn't part of a rape fantasy by some dude in any of those games.

 

[AnarchistFish]

Don't get why this is so immensely controversial in the first place.

Fucking hell, people on this site get so pissy over relatively minor things all the time.

 

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

Pick any Tomb Raider game, a good 50% of the human enemies she killed would have probably raped her given the chance; half of them probably wouldn't have even minded if she was alive or not.

Really? Really? You're bringing meaningless extrapolation to this argument? "Oh, sure, she was never actually threatened with rape before, but you could tell all those guys she killed were totally thinking about it so it's really the same thing." Ugh.

 

[maninahat]

Ok I have to ask this here. Who else thought of the retsupurae video for navgtr and tomb raider?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s0lzbCK9f8

No, but thanks for sharing that. Strangely prescient.

As for the "false advertising" thing, I don't buy it. They made that game, they made the trailer, they knew how it would be construed. Even if they didn't imagine people inferring an attempted rape from the trailer, they have to take responsibility when they do. They can't just turn around with a say "we are sorry that you don't understanding" response. Don't shift the blame onto us, CD.

 

[maninahat]

Crystal Dynamics: So, Lara goes through all these hardships, gets injured, her friend is missing, she even almost gets raped, then she eventually kills someone for the first time, and she is building up from there...

Gaming sites: LARA CROFT'S BACKSTORY IS A RAPE SCENE!!!

Crystal Dynamics: Uh, no, that phrase was misleading, there was only that groping scene that you already saw in the trailer, but the game isn't exactly based on a "sexual assault" theme...

Gaming sites: ACCORDING TO TOMB RAIDER DEVELOPERS, GROPING ISN'T SEXUAL ASSAULT!!!

Crystal Dynamics: Well, the phrases imply different things, I mean, rape would be a more dramatic theme to cover, while the scene that we have is just a part of the general suspenseful atmosphere.

Gaming sites: CRYSTAL DYNAMICS SAYS GROPING IS "PART OF THE GENERAL ... ATMOSPHERE"!!!

Crystal Dynamics: Hey, it's not that it's there as an important theme all along, the game is about survival, and suffering through hardships, we just thought that implying that the thugs stranded on an empty island might potentially be horny as well would be reasonable.

Gaming sites: CYSTAL DYNAMICS JUSTIFIES RAPE AS "REASONABLE"!!!

Crystal Dynamics: Of course, we don't want to sound disrespectul with sexual assault victims, but we hope that most gamers' intelligence is enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy

Gaming sites: RAPE SCENE IS "GAMERS' ... FANTASY", SAYS TOMB RAIDER PRODUCER!!!

Crystal Dynamics: OK, WE JUST HATE WOMEN, AND WE WANT TO SEE THEM ALL GETTING RAPED, THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED TO HEAR??? YOU GUYS CAN ALL SUCK MY DICK!!!

Gaming sites: NEW TOMB RAIDER TO FEATURE HOMOSEXUAL FELLATIO SCENE!

I have to admit I laughed at that. If only you turned your comedy efforts to not defending idiots who got called out for their inappropriate handling of a delicate subject.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

This reminds me of the legend of King Midas, specifically the part of the story where Midas wishes for all that he touches to magically turn to gold but afterwards learns to his abject horror that he has no real control over his newly granted ability.

So how are those realistic portrayals of women in video games treating you so far, ladies?* Have you learned yet that you have to be very careful with what you wish for?



* - Not addressed to women who were quite comfortable with Lara as rule #63 Indiana Jones.

 

[Prince Regent]

This is what happens when tvtropes removes all articles on rape. People instantly don't know what the word means anymore.

Do not underestimate the power of tvtropes.

 

[Phasmal]

This reminds me of the legend of King Midas, specifically the part of the story where Midas wishes for all that he touches to magically turn to gold but afterwards learns to his abject horror that he has no real control over his newly granted ability.

So how are those realistic portrayals of women in video games treating you so far, ladies?* Have you learned yet that you have to be very careful with what you wish for?



* - Not addressed to women who were quite comfortable with Lara as rule #63 Indiana Jones.

What on earth does this mean?
`If we put more realistic ladies in games, we're just gonna HAVE to sexually assault them. Ha, ha lady gamers- you asked for this!`???
Or `Games fundamentally suck at making female characters`?

That statement is just bizarre, whatever you meant.

 

[DementedSheep]

For some reason it's acceptable to include illustrations of rape, sexual assault, and attempted rape in other media like literature and movies. People seem to be throw a shit-fit when the same content comes to video games; I can only imagine that they perceive games to be merely entertainment for children, despite the median age of a gamer being something in the thirties, as I recall.

If it's acceptable in other media, it is acceptable in video games, period. Rape is just as worthy a matter for discussion as other forms of violence.

That?s not true, there has been rape in video games before just not of the protagonist. In fact there are many games that have rape in them. I seem to keep running into them lately and it?s actually getting annoying. The only other games I've seen any real controversy around the issue was Duke Nukem because of the jokes and tone shift. I don?t even remember much controversy around the Witcher 2 (probably because people were distracted by the nudity) and that game has so much rape its ridicules. I don't think this would have even been an issue were it not for the developer?s comments drawing attention to it and if it wasn?t Lara Croft.

 

[sabercrusader]

As a guy, I still constitute groping like that as, at the very least, the implication of an attempted rape. Seriously, don't include it in the game if you aren't ready for a little controversy. And sure as hell don't back down the second it pops up and try and explain it as something else, this is obviously implying an attempted rape, so don't try and pull the wool over our eyes and say it was a fear tactic only. It may also be a fear tactic, but an attempted rape is an attempted rape. I'd like to have faith that gamers and the media will have the maturity to see exactly how it's handled before condemning it, see how it changes her, etc. It's time we can allow people to tell a story how they want to, if it includes rape, it includes rape, as long as it's handled well, there really should be no problem with it.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

This reminds me of the legend of King Midas, specifically the part of the story where Midas wishes for all that he touches to magically turn to gold but afterwards learns to his abject horror that he has no real control over his newly granted ability.

So how are those realistic portrayals of women in video games treating you so far, ladies?* Have you learned yet that you have to be very careful with what you wish for?



* - Not addressed to women who were quite comfortable with Lara as rule #63 Indiana Jones.

What on earth does this mean?
`If we put more realistic ladies in games, we're just gonna HAVE to sexually assault them. Ha, ha lady gamers- you asked for this!`???
Or `Games fundamentally suck at making female characters`?

That statement is just bizarre, whatever you meant.

In his avarice, when the opportunity presents itself, King Midas asks the gods to be given the golden touch. Depending on which version of the story is being told he later starves to death or recants his wondrous gift, after he finds himself unable partake in the basic necessities such as food, drink or even the comforting touch of another human being.

So now you've got a realistic Lara Croft, but a realistic video game character must appear in a realistic video game and when that train is taken to it's logical conclusion, what was once lighthearted fun can quickly end up in some very dark serious places.

Realism is more than just an aesthetic choice, it is a fundamental design decision. Sometimes it is the right choice, and sometimes it isn't. But it is definitely the wrong choice of direction when making a game about an orphaned British aristocrat who spends her time predominately slumming it up in the developing world, pursuing the sort of lifestyle depicted in the old matinée serials and pulp magazines that were the inspiration for Indiana Jones.

Bring back the ÜberFräulein in a tank top, the confident, intelligent, multilingual crack-shot who seems only ever to get alluringly dirty despite the nigh inhuman feats of dare-doing she engages in. She is every bit the equal to Indiana Jones and his oiled almost hairless chest and rightfully so.

But most importantly some people have to learn not to try cramming realism into places where it just doesn't belong. Or like King Midas they might not find the end result as palatable as they thought it would be. Assuming of course they're not just being a prick and trying to touch food other people were eating that they didn't particularly want in the first place.

 

[Farther than stars]

♫ Oh, just keep diggin'... Oh, yeeaah! Just keep diggin'... Oh, just keep diggin' that hole... ♫ *walks off into the sunset whistling bluesy tune*

 

[GloatingSwine]

So now you've got a realistic Lara Croft, but a realistic video game character must appear in a realistic video game and when that train is taken to it's logical conclusion, what was once lighthearted fun can quickly end up in some very dark serious places.

If the new Tomb Raider was a "realistic" game Lara would have died of shock and/or blood loss within the first five minutes.

It's also clear from the original developer interview that realism wasn't near the top of their minds when they included this scene, victimisation for the explicit purpose of making the audience want to "protect" Lara was.

So get a new tune, yours is wrong and massively sexist.

 

[tmande2nd]

Can we please just let this die?

OMG OMG OMG RAPE RAPISTS OMG RAPEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
I am not saying its meaningless its just for the love of all things good and fluffy can we just get past a game dealing with rape?

 

[Phasmal]

Snip

Yes, I was aware of your analogy. It just doesn't make much sense.

The thing I took issue with was the way you seemed to be suggesting that this was the fault of female gamers who wish to be presented better (which implies that pushing for better representation of women in games is a bad thing). I'm sure you are well-aware that when people ask for realistic female characters, this is not what they mean.
Realism in a game and a realistic character are not the same thing, so I'm not sure why you lumped those together.
And are you really saying that for a realistic version of Lara they had to do this?

 

[Deshin]

Pick any Tomb Raider game, a good 50% of the human enemies she killed would have probably raped her given the chance; half of them probably wouldn't have even minded if she was alive or not.

Really? Really? You're bringing meaningless extrapolation to this argument? "Oh, sure, she was never actually threatened with rape before, but you could tell all those guys she killed were totally thinking about it so it's really the same thing." Ugh.

Yes, yes I just did and the worst part is I'm most probably right. Ever read Walking Dead?

Spoiler

Remember what the Governer did to Michone? Captured her and tied her up and raped her and beat the shit out of her while doing it?

THAT'S what would *really* happen in 9/10 of the scenarios Lara Croft would have found herself in being in the ass end of civilization with a bunch of crooks and thieves who sit around all day with a bunch of other men and haven't seen a woman in weeks. If you think a bunch of unwashed, violent, hardened-killer mercenaries and grave robbers are going to be gentlemen to Ms. Croft and her privates then you're pretty damn naive.

Ok sure, they never actually threatened with her with "Hey come over here so I can stick it in ya" before because the impending shitstorm from the media would have dirven the IP into the ground before it even took off as a franchise. But I guess now the devs thought Tomb Raider is a strong enough franchise and we're just a bit more grown up these days and can handle it. But hey, I guess not.

 

[Marcus McLean]

Ok I have to ask this here. Who else thought of the retsupurae video for navgtr and tomb raider?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s0lzbCK9f8

I did. Immediately.