Exactly, her preference has never really come up before so it doesn't really need to know, and I like the idea that Lara could be immune to seduction.I say old chap said:
p.s. loved the song link
Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?
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p.s. loved the song link
Immune, over it, busy thinking about other things.
You could even use it to draw a contrast to other characters. That she is all business and about the thrill and not game for those games. Been doing the raiding too long and the research it is the only thing that greases her wheels.
Reminded of the researcher in The Thing. Yeah others can slobber over women, she has a job to do.
You could even use it to draw a contrast to other characters. That she is all business and about the thrill and not game for those games. Been doing the raiding too long and the research it is the only thing that greases her wheels.
Reminded of the researcher in The Thing. Yeah others can slobber over women, she has a job to do.
Actually, reading over the posts of this thread, I am somewhat taken aback by all the resistance to the idea. Sure, some could be written off as the usual knee-jerk reaction to any form of change in an established character (Dante with black hair??? NEVAH!11), but another suggests a slightly troubling form of homophobia, the idea that if a lesbian character is not there for the benefit of a straight male audience, then we're actually on the same level of general distaste as the idea of a gay male protagonist.
There's also this really, really prevalent idea that minority inclusion is seen as "PC" or carries some sort of political agenda. That's just baffling. Is making an overtly straight character a matter of PC or political agendas? Because I assure you, I have played some games with aggressively straight male characters, and I didn't see anyone saying that it was being "PC" or playing up to some political agenda.
And then there's the "pandering" argument, which also befuddles me. Every single instance of a game is pandering. All of it. The sound, the visuals, the gameplay, the dialogue, the worldbuilding, every choice is designed to please (even "trolling the fanbase" is designed to please the fans). So what is, exactly, the problem with companies trying to please someone other than you? Why is it only pandering when the pleasing is not aimed at you?
The video game industry is part of the entertainment industry. The entertainment industry aims to entertain, which means it aims to please. Calling one decision "pandering" over any other is absolutely ridiculous.
There's also this really, really prevalent idea that minority inclusion is seen as "PC" or carries some sort of political agenda. That's just baffling. Is making an overtly straight character a matter of PC or political agendas? Because I assure you, I have played some games with aggressively straight male characters, and I didn't see anyone saying that it was being "PC" or playing up to some political agenda.
And then there's the "pandering" argument, which also befuddles me. Every single instance of a game is pandering. All of it. The sound, the visuals, the gameplay, the dialogue, the worldbuilding, every choice is designed to please (even "trolling the fanbase" is designed to please the fans). So what is, exactly, the problem with companies trying to please someone other than you? Why is it only pandering when the pleasing is not aimed at you?
The video game industry is part of the entertainment industry. The entertainment industry aims to entertain, which means it aims to please. Calling one decision "pandering" over any other is absolutely ridiculous.
Normally I'm not bothered by people's comments. But this post reeeeeaaaaally scraped by me the wrong way. You are a demographic yourself, presumably a straight male (I apologize if I'm incorrect in that assumption).I say old chap said:
When designers are creating characters for their games, you are the very first demographic they try to appeal to. Whether or not you are receptive of it or even care about their attempts is irrelevant; they are going out of their way to create a game that appeals to your interests whether or not it is successful. They are pandering to YOU. You are the person they are going out of their way to appeal to, a single demographic who plays games out of many different demographics of people who also play games.
You comment that all of this pandering developers are doing is tiring when they're trying to appeal to other groups, but well... how are Women, LGTB among other groups supposed to feel about that? Wouldn't they find it tiring that they aren't getting as much representation? You've explicitly said yourself that it bothers you when a character that appeals to women / gay men is in the games you play. Does it bother you when a character meant to appeal to you is in the game?
You've said that who they fuck is irrelevant, but how many protagonists have a love interest that are involved in the plot in some way? Would you say that is sexualized? Because remember, there were never plans for Lara to bang anyone. If she did have a love interest involved in the plot she wasn't going to tear her clothes off and have a 20 minute sex scene with them.
It isn't called over-sexualized until people start what gender the character in question wants to be with. That somehow homosexual relations are inherently more sexual then hetrosexual ones. That is the vibe I always get when these sorts of topics arrive and... it bothers me. It bothers me a lot. Is there some sort of difference I don't understand? When discussing a character it is assumed they are hetrosexual and if anyone suggests that they might not be, people start going on about how their video games are being oversexualized and that all of these other demographics are invading and ruining the video games.
I'm sorry if homosexual men/women in your videogames somehow make you feel more exposed and vulnerable to the ugly world of sex and humping.
God... I apologize if I offended you. It wasn't aimed at your specifically, just the general attitude I'm feeling in this thread. I need a glass of water or something..
The problem isn't a gay character in itself. Hell, I welcome those. I don't mind gay, black, female, trans, bi or asexual characters in my games, what I dislike is when a developer/writer throws it in as a publicity stunt/attempt at being ''edgy'', and tries to tell you every 5 to 10 minute.the hidden eagle said:
''Hey, look at this gay character! we're modern and take risks!''
Also, as another member noted, a character being made gay is always an afterthought by the dev. The character isn't designed or made to be homosexual from scratch, but rather added late in development when they see that adding homosexuality won't ''effect'' their sales.
I went out of my way to avoid calling it straight privilege. It never helps, no matter how much one might imagine it would. People hear the word "privilege" and it seems to activate a switch implanted deep in their brains that turns them into frothing rage machines.the hidden eagle said:
In reality, the problem is that inequality is perceived as the status quo. Catering to the straight, white and male demographics is the tradition (despite the fact that they're minorities as well, ironically), and people resist change based on many different types of justifications (all of which are either fallacious or prejudiced) because they perceive any attempt to change the status quo as unnecessary and harmful. They are used to being on the beneficial side of inequality, so they perceive any attempt to redress that inequality as obviously unnecessary (because it's not like it's affecting them negatively!) and sometimes even harmful (because it's seen as an attack on the (unequal) traditions that they benefit from. And the worst part is that it is! It is an attack on traditions and the current way of doing things, but that doesn't make it a bad thing for the people who have been suffering from that inequality).
So yeah, you're right, but good luck trying to get people to understand that.
When you can add or remove the gay tag without a second thought (and reskin the love interest from one gender to another, and redoing the voiced dialogue, obviously), you're doing it right.King Aragorn said:
There should be no differences between two rugged marines, or two adventuring tomb raiders, or two nerdy superheroes, just because one of them is gay and the other one is straight.
Hmmm nah don't underline that, I kind of liked her Posh, Coy-Lady thing she had going near the beginning of her franchise. Leave it open to both men and women if you must, I'm all for that. But don't go 'SHES A LESBIAN, LOOK GUYS, SHE'LL DO GIRLS SO YOU CAN FANTASIZE ABOUT THAT IN CLEARER CONTEXT!'.
Pointless.
Pointless.
The absolute BEST part of that was reading the comments here at The Escapist saying things along the lines of "See? This is why you don't listen to the minorities! Look at them, you give them what they want and they just whine harder!" or other similar "Ungrateful whiners!" attacks.the hidden eagle said:
I was tempted to post something along the lines of "Yes, we should all be grateful for the mouldy, rotten scraps they throw at us. Sorry. We shall endeavour to be more grateful in the future" but I knew it would've been useless.
Because I don't trust any form of media enough to write gay characters well, specially in video games. Where a rape scene is a huge deal.the hidden eagle said:
Yep, exactly. This reboot has been about getting away from the tropes and cliches that have defined much of Lara's character in the past. If Lara was a lesbian, it would just be moving into that other hold trope that "bad-ass women are butch." UNLESS the writers REALLY know what they're doing and were able to introduce Lara as homosexual while dodging that trope, which is possible, but would be very difficult; as much as I enjoyed the new Tomb Raider and give credit to the writers, I don't think that Ms. Pratchett et. all are quite up to that task.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Another good point I wanted to make. Unless you subscribe to the ideology that "minorities have been shutout and underrepresented for so long, so we need to take every opportunity to showcase them" (which I don't), then there's no reason to broach the topic at all.Adam Jensen said:
As a writer, the only question that needs to be asked is, "Will this make the story better?" Tomb Raider is a story about a person physically surviving despite incredible odds and then dominating the threats; it's about exploration and discovery in dangerous environments. I don't see how a subplot of "Lara is homosexual" would contribute to that; it would just be a major distraction from what the story is trying to accomplish UNLESS, as I stated above, the writers REALLY knew what they were doing.
And as a final thought, straight females need relatable characters too, especially in light of the "bad-ass women are butch" trope; it seems mildly unfair to declare Lara homosexual, making her more relatable to the lesbian community (assuming the writers didn't fall on straight-male-pandering "Yay! Lesbians!" tropes), but then less relatable to the much larger straight female gaming community which has been lacking in relatable and capable straight female characters since...well, for as long as gaming has existed.
If you believe that minority representation is a good thing, it will always make your story better. If you do not believe that, it will never make your story better. It's not a conditional thing that depends on the story. It depends wholly on the personal ideologies of the author and the audience.remnant_phoenix said:
Being gay is not a subplot. Where is the "Lara is a woman" subplot, then? Or the "Lara is white" subplot? Our identities are not subplots. We as LGBT+ people do not exist for the enjoyment of an external viewer.remnant_phoenix said:
The thing is straight female protagonists are as much, if not more, of a minority than lesbian ones. I think I would feel really really deprived as a straight female gamer if she was made to be gay.Darken12 said:
Frankly I think representation in video games goes Straight guy, lesbian, straight women, gay guy.
There are so many games where the female character can have a relationship or flirt with female npcs just on the basis that they didn't change the dialogue from a male. In those games the men almost always treat you like you fell out the ugly tree. That's not even counting actual lesbian characters.
How many games can you list where a straight female protagonist has an on screen relationship with a male outside Bioware games (where again there is almost always less choice for straight women). I don't think I can think of any...maybe Jennifer out of Primal? Obscure ps1 game :S and even then you just see her bf briefly at the end.
What King Aragorn is addressing are the people who do write gay, female characters and/or characters of a different race and try to make either a big deal. That doesn't work nor should it. I wish people stop panicking when a character is revealed to be gay as well because I find it equally as annoying but I also don't want them trying to throw that or anything else that is considered "edgy" in as an afterthought when they think it won't hurt sales. That assumes only the worst from all of us.the hidden eagle said:
Wait, what? How would being a lesbian suddenly make Lara butch? Not that I give a damn about traditional definitions of masculinity or femininity. Either way, the reboot has already established Lara as an introverted archaeology geek, through Sam's journal entries. (Those same journals also heavily imply that both Sam and Lara are straight.)remnant_phoenix said:
And, of course, the true problem at hand is that video games don't have enough proper female protagonists. If there were more to begin with, we wouldn't have to spend this time discussing what sexual/romantic preferences are in most need of representation.
Regardless of the writer's intent, and considering how incompetent Crystal Dynamics was at handling the other controversial story points, I think they'd have handled Lara's sexuality just as incompetently.LiquidGrape said:
Really, can you imagine Ron 'Rape Scene' Rosenberg talking about Lara being a lesbian without doing it in a leering, sleazy, one hand under the table way? 'Cos I can't.
And even if they muzzled that cretin and put someone with a working brain in front of the press the media would have had a field day with it.
On-topic: it's a stupid idea and I'm glad it wasn't considered. Lara has never had any in-game romantic attachements that I know of (the movies are another matter) but suddenly coming out* with "Oh and she's a lesbian now" would go against what the majority of people have always assumed is her sexuality, as well as making an absolute farce of their claims to be de-sexualising the character.
[sub]*pun intended[/sub]
