Too Many Buttons
- Thread starter John Scott Tynes
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I thought it was pretty good. It just got old after you basically do the same thing over and over again.Nimbus said:
The 360's controller is the best controller I have ever used. If anything is guilty of too many buttons, its PC. A whole keyboard is overkill, and too many things are either hidden as possible traps or just something to get your arms tied up around.
Unless I am just amazing, using most any controller is second nature after oh...an hour max. I sometimes have a hard time being able to tell you X is reload, but I know it in my thumbs.
Unless I am just amazing, using most any controller is second nature after oh...an hour max. I sometimes have a hard time being able to tell you X is reload, but I know it in my thumbs.
Frankly, I don't like the control scheme you suggest; Ok, some games do use too many buttons, but frankly this control scheme uses too few controls - without a view control, or a strafing control, how are you going to quickly look around for enemies in a 3D environment? And yeah, auto-lock sounds fine in theory, but by the same token, Ether theory sounded fine to the people of the 18th century.
Indeed.Eldritch Warlord said:
This is a really terrible ideae, you take away a bunch of the games features and any skill while simultaneously making it harder to play. There is a reason we moved away from the one button controller. Also Doom isn't still a fun game to play because of gameplay, it's purely nostalgia. You can find hundreds of games better than doom for free, on the internet.
A really hope no developers take your advice from the last line.
A really hope no developers take your advice from the last line.
Why do some (most, actually) of you guys have such a hard time understanding that the article doesn't really suggest having all our games use an analog stick and a button? The purpose of the article, as I see it, is to show that games can still be games without nineteen inputs. I admit that the specific game John suggests in his artice does seem pretty shitty to me. So what? It's still a game with only five inputs. Now, what if instead of five, we took, say, eleven inputs? The game would be drastically improved over Far Cry 2600, would probably include most or all the nuances of current games, and with eight less inputs, it would be far more accessible to new gamers. Get over this "If you can't master two hundred thousand controls in half a second you're a retard and shouldn't be allowed to touch a console" mindset. I bet it wasn't so simple with your first FPS's.
Maybe you shouldn't play games if you think there's too many buttons.
The only other people I know who'd say that would be my mum and grandparents.
The majority of ports that go between consoles and the PC have the same amounts of keys mapped to actions.
The only other people I know who'd say that would be my mum and grandparents.
Overkill? You realise keyboards are used to type and other stuff as well, right?Kiutu said:
The majority of ports that go between consoles and the PC have the same amounts of keys mapped to actions.
I see this "controllers are too complex" theory a lot, and I think it's based on an incorrect (and honestly, kind of arrogant) assumption.
Basically, it goes something like this:
"People who don't play games don't play games because they are stupid. Therefore, I need to dumb Super FPS 9000 down to the point that a retarded monkey can run it, and then my retarded mom will love it!"
The truth is, your mom can learn how to use a modern controller with a zillion buttons on it. (The 100+ controls in a standard car example was already mentioned.) The problem is that your mom has no *reason* to learn how to use that controller, because your mom isn't interested in shooting nazis or aliens or zombies or robot-mutant hamsters, or whatever else it is you do in Super FPS 9000.
That's the Wii's success. It's not that they simplified their controls - in reality, the Wii controls are frustrating and hard to use and in may ways more complex than the "core" controllers. (You know what's hard to learn? How to open a door with an arcane gesture the console only recognizes one time in three. What's easy? An "open the goddamn door" button.) What the Wii *did* do was put out a large stable of games about group play (an excellent way to facilitate learning, especially when the games aren't so directly competitive), exercise, and basic math/other "self help," etc, all wrapped up in a cheery "home appliance" wrapper with friendly sounds instead of a testosterone-soaked gorefest. The Wii *has* put out a number of gore-soaked "core" games with "simplified, easy" controls, and in general all they've managed to do is be harder to control and shallow, which has alienated the sorts of people who actually play those games, but have still completely failed to capture a "mainstream" audience because - yes - "mainstream" audiences are completely disinterested in that subject matter.
Basically, it goes something like this:
"People who don't play games don't play games because they are stupid. Therefore, I need to dumb Super FPS 9000 down to the point that a retarded monkey can run it, and then my retarded mom will love it!"
The truth is, your mom can learn how to use a modern controller with a zillion buttons on it. (The 100+ controls in a standard car example was already mentioned.) The problem is that your mom has no *reason* to learn how to use that controller, because your mom isn't interested in shooting nazis or aliens or zombies or robot-mutant hamsters, or whatever else it is you do in Super FPS 9000.
That's the Wii's success. It's not that they simplified their controls - in reality, the Wii controls are frustrating and hard to use and in may ways more complex than the "core" controllers. (You know what's hard to learn? How to open a door with an arcane gesture the console only recognizes one time in three. What's easy? An "open the goddamn door" button.) What the Wii *did* do was put out a large stable of games about group play (an excellent way to facilitate learning, especially when the games aren't so directly competitive), exercise, and basic math/other "self help," etc, all wrapped up in a cheery "home appliance" wrapper with friendly sounds instead of a testosterone-soaked gorefest. The Wii *has* put out a number of gore-soaked "core" games with "simplified, easy" controls, and in general all they've managed to do is be harder to control and shallow, which has alienated the sorts of people who actually play those games, but have still completely failed to capture a "mainstream" audience because - yes - "mainstream" audiences are completely disinterested in that subject matter.
Okay. It's been said before, over and over, and yet so many people seem not to be listening, so allow me to state this clearly, with appropriate line breaks, bolding and use of Caps Lock.
Those of you who are "real gamers", who have mastered "Press L2 for frag grenade, press L3 for flash grenade", who could probably perform remote microsurgery with a controller?
THIS ARTICLE IS NOT FOR YOU.
This article explains (perhaps not the best way possible, but still) how a game with very complex controls could be boiled down to something as simple as an Atari 2600 controller. It is an effort to explain how controls could be simplified and condensed to make them more easily understood by someone who is new to that particular genre, or perhaps to electronic gaming itself.
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT "EXPERT" GAMERS ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY STUPID.
Unless you were born with a 360 controller in your hand (in which case I feel sorry for your mother) you did not come into this world with "leet gamzorz smarts". You put in the hours and learned to deal with ever-increasingly complex control schemes and gameplay. Which is great. The problem is that you expect other people to start at the level you've reached. Saying "Dad, you're such an idiot, right trigger is for melee and left trigger is for grenades" is condescending to someone who's never operated anything more complex than an ATM machine.
If we don't make gaming more open and welcoming to new blood, it is eventually going to wither and die. You will, eventually, stop playing games- and who will take your place? All those people who could have gotten into serious gaming "back in the day" will have instead been put off by the complexity of the games and the snide attitude of the gamers, havling log since opted to stick with simple Popcap-type games that have immediate payoff and- more importantly- no snobby elitist looking down on them for being a "retard".
It gets awfully lonely up in those ivory towers, when you've driven away everyone who wanted to come take a look.
Those of you who are "real gamers", who have mastered "Press L2 for frag grenade, press L3 for flash grenade", who could probably perform remote microsurgery with a controller?
THIS ARTICLE IS NOT FOR YOU.
This article explains (perhaps not the best way possible, but still) how a game with very complex controls could be boiled down to something as simple as an Atari 2600 controller. It is an effort to explain how controls could be simplified and condensed to make them more easily understood by someone who is new to that particular genre, or perhaps to electronic gaming itself.
zombflux said:
People like you two are a greater danger to gaming than a million Jack Thompsons. Why? Because you want gaming to stop growing. You want it to cater to you exclusively, to give you more of what you're familiar with, and to lock out those you deem "unworthy" with excessively complex controls and gameplay. Your path leads to stagnation, shrinking audiences, and eventually the death of "serious" gaming itself. Allow me to again make this clear:Woodsey said:
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT "EXPERT" GAMERS ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY STUPID.
Unless you were born with a 360 controller in your hand (in which case I feel sorry for your mother) you did not come into this world with "leet gamzorz smarts". You put in the hours and learned to deal with ever-increasingly complex control schemes and gameplay. Which is great. The problem is that you expect other people to start at the level you've reached. Saying "Dad, you're such an idiot, right trigger is for melee and left trigger is for grenades" is condescending to someone who's never operated anything more complex than an ATM machine.
If we don't make gaming more open and welcoming to new blood, it is eventually going to wither and die. You will, eventually, stop playing games- and who will take your place? All those people who could have gotten into serious gaming "back in the day" will have instead been put off by the complexity of the games and the snide attitude of the gamers, havling log since opted to stick with simple Popcap-type games that have immediate payoff and- more importantly- no snobby elitist looking down on them for being a "retard".
It gets awfully lonely up in those ivory towers, when you've driven away everyone who wanted to come take a look.
Now there's TOO many buttons. I don't mind that there are a few more buttons than what I'm used to on the console; my main issue is that most of the buttons on a keyboard don't do anything in a game, leading a new gamer to have to press everything to figure out all the different actions, and often fumbling up at critical moments because the pushed the button next to what they wanted, not to mention your aim suddenly stopping because moved your mouse too far and have to place it back in the centre.Gnmish said:
What a standard console controller has now might be considered the best balance of button amounts. Enough to give the programmers options, but not so many as to confuse the player with too big a button-to-usable finger ratio. Lets just pray that the uber-controller below doesn't come out (thank you almightywabbit for the image), otherwise we'll scare off newbie gamers for good.
http://www.hamovhotov.com/fun/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/ps4-controller.jpg
Downgrading controls = growing? I think you're a little confused, bud. You don't have to be a "gaming expert" to understand how to control a game. Sure, you might be a little awkward for the first 10 minutes if you're really new, but anyone with a half-decent short term memory should be able to understand basic game controls without them having to be dumbed down, and without having to spend the aforementioned hours to learn which buttons do what.The Rogue Wolf said:
Making games worse so that more people will like them might seem like a "it's for the greater good!" situation to you, but if they're too dumb to get it, I don't want them crowding my multiplayer servers anyway.
Millions of people worldwide have gotten into gaming without the need to regress to "A to jump, B to attack" gameplay. If anything, you're the one who is anti-progress.
Retard.
No jump / crouch is bad for any FPS.
I don't care if your trying to make it casual friendly, its just going to hurt the game as a hole.
I don't care if your trying to make it casual friendly, its just going to hurt the game as a hole.
Yes, millions of people worldwide have gotten into gaming. What I want is for that to continue. I'm not saying "make the games worse"; I'm saying take ease of control into mind, rather than have a button each assigned to "scratch left foot/right foot/groin/nose" just because there happen to be extra buttons on the controller. Especially games which don't allow for any sort of button reassignment- and this happens a lot on PC ports of console games- meaning you have to memorize exactly what button does what, when, rather than being able to set it to your own comfort. And this is seldom consistent along individual titles in a genre, with each having its own idea of what the "best" layout is. Sure, it's easy for experienced gamers, who expect certain functionality to carry over and need merely find the correct button, but for someone who's new? It's just going to be more confusing.zombflux said:
An "easy to learn, hard to master" ideal is not the terrible thing some people are making it out to be. Couching new players in a bit of a "comfort zone" to get them up and running does not at all take away from YOUR experience. All it would take is a handful of configurations and tutorials for anyone new to gaming, as well as other more complex ones for those who know what to do. Just because it comes naturally to you doesn't mean it does to everyone else, and struggling to understand complex controls while the game hands one pointless death after another to you doesn't appeal to everyone. I'm not calling for "A to jump, B to attack" like you claim- but I would just as soon see "five buttons for separate grenades, and if you confuse them you'll probably die" control schemes bite the dust.
A way for everyone to get into a game, from casual to hardcore. I think it's possible. If the idea of casuals playing "your" game on "your" servers offends you, I think the problem lies more with you than with them.
An interesting thought. But I really don't see a need for fewer inputs - I would actually like a few more so that I can stop dying in games because the context sensitive button gets confused because I'm standing too close to different contexts and makes me change guns instead of taking cover.
I agree that picking up a control pad for the first time can be intimidating but we all have to start somewhere. So instead of dumbing down the controls lets not throw people we want to get into gaming to the wolves on their first go. Start them off with a third person shooter and not a first. Sit them down with Fable before stampeding into Ninja Gaiden.
Baby steps are beautiful things.
I agree that picking up a control pad for the first time can be intimidating but we all have to start somewhere. So instead of dumbing down the controls lets not throw people we want to get into gaming to the wolves on their first go. Start them off with a third person shooter and not a first. Sit them down with Fable before stampeding into Ninja Gaiden.
Baby steps are beautiful things.
At some point you stop saying "make controls a little easier" and started saying "games have bad controls", so I'll assume you gave up. All I'm saying is, if it takes someone more than an hour to figure out the controls for a game, they should probably try something easier, like Minesweeper maybe, or pong. That's what you really want, isn't it? Back to the 70's with gaming controls!The Rogue Wolf said:
Some games have bad controls, yes, and I do not like that, no, but saying that all games should have all their controls simplified just so we can appeal to a wider audience is, as stated, retarded.
However, I'm under the impression you're under the impression that gaming is going to die because you can't understand the controls in a game like Call of Duty 4 or Halo (not to mention on a console, which has less than half the commonly used buttons of the real man's machine: PC), then this argument is a waste of my time because I am arguing with, as stated, a retard.
Good day.
While an interesting idea, there isn't really a problem with the amount of buttons on modern controllers.
Gamers are gamers because they can play video games, so the controller is almost always intuitively used by them. Think about a martial artist, they didn't have some easy version of what they were doing; they started with the basics and worked their way up to killing someone with their mind.
But seriously, yeah. As stated before, most genres have a common control scheme, and most gamers can identify immediately. FPS and racers are the most common, as the right shoulder trigger is almost always fire/accelerate. Square or circle (<<< is a PS3 owner) are reload/e-brake, e.t.c. e.t.c. Give most gamers a game, and they go about pushing all the buttons. Why? Because we're figuring out the control scheme.
The inherent problem isn't the medium (controller), but the person. Gaming does have a learning curve. That's what easy modes are for; while the enemy empties a hundred clips trying to kill you, you're pushing every button trying to remember (again) what button is reload, or switch weapon.
Yes, I use FPS as an example a lot. Mostly because FPS are what I usually play. Being they're the most fun genre out there.
Gamers are gamers because they can play video games, so the controller is almost always intuitively used by them. Think about a martial artist, they didn't have some easy version of what they were doing; they started with the basics and worked their way up to killing someone with their mind.
But seriously, yeah. As stated before, most genres have a common control scheme, and most gamers can identify immediately. FPS and racers are the most common, as the right shoulder trigger is almost always fire/accelerate. Square or circle (<<< is a PS3 owner) are reload/e-brake, e.t.c. e.t.c. Give most gamers a game, and they go about pushing all the buttons. Why? Because we're figuring out the control scheme.
The inherent problem isn't the medium (controller), but the person. Gaming does have a learning curve. That's what easy modes are for; while the enemy empties a hundred clips trying to kill you, you're pushing every button trying to remember (again) what button is reload, or switch weapon.
Yes, I use FPS as an example a lot. Mostly because FPS are what I usually play. Being they're the most fun genre out there.
that actually sounds terrible my litle cousin can pick up and play a paint ball shooter (yes, I have one on my PS2, trying to get him into shooters and don't want him playing anything gory untill I think he's ready for it) and he can control everything just fine, and your scheme sounds like it would be too confusing for him, would you rather explain this to him:
'OK billy, to change weapons, you need to get behind cover, do X to get into this menu, then select it from the menu, and press that button'
or:
'OK illy, to change weapons, you press this button'
??
I like the latter better, but if your youngins' are geniuouses, be my guest. All I know is, if this change happens perminantley if at all then I will happily bear the name 'retro gamer'
'OK billy, to change weapons, you need to get behind cover, do X to get into this menu, then select it from the menu, and press that button'
or:
'OK illy, to change weapons, you press this button'
??
I like the latter better, but if your youngins' are geniuouses, be my guest. All I know is, if this change happens perminantley if at all then I will happily bear the name 'retro gamer'
Decades of UI research says you and the writer of the article are wrong. If there are five available grenades, the most discoverable and easily learned way to represent them in controls is having a dedicated button for each.The Rogue Wolf said:
Your argument seems to wander to unrelated things. "If you confuse them you'll probably die" is a matter of difficulty level, not controls.
Nope, not when the game is complicated. The weak player can't deal with it and if you rip out enough elements to make it palatable (such as remove the grenade types), you have a different game.
The very idea that everything should be accessible to everyone is revoltingly stupid. Build an idiot proof system and nature will build a better idiot. You always have to draw a line somewhere or you won't have a game/book/movie at all.