Geez. FINALLY, I was waiting for a Reactionary Ranger to pop out of the woodwork. We're like on page 7 and it took someone this long.RJ Dalton said:Man, the anti-conservative propaganda is fucking thick. I mean this is the very antithesis of subtlety. It really annoys me when games are that obvious. I never played the first one, but if was that bad at weaving theme into narrative, I have no intention of trying it out.
Anti-conservative? Sure, the main philosophy of Columbia appears to be heavily rooted in traditionalism, but that's not its main focus at all. It's focusing far more on extreme patriotism and jingoism; anti-conservatism is only a minor component of that.RJ Dalton said:Man, the anti-conservative propaganda is fucking thick. I mean this is the very antithesis of subtlety. It really annoys me when games are that obvious. I never played the first one, but if was that bad at weaving theme into narrative, I have no intention of trying it out.
Shh. Exploration of themes scares them. It presents people as corruptible and means that sometimes not everything is happy under the surface.Samus Aaron said:Anti-conservative? Sure, the main philosophy of Columbia appears to be heavily rooted in traditionalism, but that's not its main focus at all. It's focusing far more on extreme patriotism and jingoism; anti-conservatism is only a minor component of that. Also, "Ryan's a capitalist and she's basically a communist", according to Jeff Weir.RJ Dalton said:Man, the anti-conservative propaganda is fucking thick. I mean this is the very antithesis of subtlety. It really annoys me when games are that obvious. I never played the first one, but if was that bad at weaving theme into narrative, I have no intention of trying it out.
Besides, this game is hardly forcing you to accept a main message. Bioshock games are all about unique, varied theories. Jingoism is just one more of their targets, so to speak, following lamb's objectivism and ryan's individualism (not sure if I have those right)
You misunderstand, it's the lack of subtlety that bothers me. I can't stand when people are this blatant about thematic elements. It lays it on so thick. At every turn for a very long space of minutes, signs everywhere and they aren't subtle signs either. This is something that should be carefully woven into the game. I get the same with the over-the-top religious books and movies (and living in Utah, I've had to put up with a lot of those crappy Mormon movies by Halestorm entertainment that I don't think got much further than this state).mr_rubino said:Geez. FINALLY, I was waiting for a Reactionary Ranger to pop out of the woodwork. We're like on page 7 and it took someone this long.
And that "I didn't play the first one" thing was the perfect touch. Not only are you the unabashed stereotype slinging the most stereotypical reaction any arch-right conservative will sling at anything that... um... presents any amount of arch-right-wing behavior in any context, but because you haven't the slightest clue what the games are about, it just makes you look silly pulling the Righteous Indignation Card.
(Seriously, are you so insecure, you have to lash out even at any caricature of it? It's as if you seriously can't say to yourself "It's social commentary by use of hyperbole. The liberal mind-control mainstream Hollywood media is not trying to sap and impurify my precious bodily fluids. This is NOT the logical endpoint of my belief system. No siree! The logical endpoint of MY belief system is a libertarian utopia of personal freedom for all God's creatures!")
Why is it that I can't mention one political philosophy or the other without people assuming that's my main issue? How many times do I have to keep reminding people that I am a hardcore independent and I view both sides of the political spectrum to be equally wrong in their approach to things? But that's not even the problem I had.Samus Aaron said:Anti-conservative? Sure, the main philosophy of Columbia appears to be heavily rooted in traditionalism, but that's not its main focus at all. It's focusing far more on extreme patriotism and jingoism; anti-conservatism is only a minor component of that.
Organised religion yes.RJ Dalton said:And being a devoted christian, I liked His Dark Materials by Philip Pulman, a story that's essentially about how evil God and organized religion is.
I understand what you're trying to get at, but political protest signs were never known for their subtlety. The ones in this trailer even seem pretty tame compared with what you see in real life:RJ Dalton said:But having me wake up and the first thing I see be the most over-the-top anti-immigration poster, followed by sign after sign of "they won't take my gun" etc. etc.? That's just insulting.
I'm not sure the total collapse of civilization based around a given philosophy is "subtle" or "restrained" commentary. The only reason it didn't seem like it was in your face was because it was a relatively obscure philosophy.RJ Dalton said:Did Bioshock 1 do this? I really never had the chance to play it. I heard about some of the details and know more or less what philosophy it was addressing, but I always assumed there was some modicum of restraint on part of the writers.
Woah now, no need to go on some sort of rant. Regardless of the fact that, as you say, you were complaining about a lack of subtlety, I wasn't referring to that at all, nor did I need to. Even if it wasn't a main part of your argument, it was still a tenant and therefore subject to criticism. I agree; this game does not appear to be the most subtle game that I've seen, but that fact has nothing to do with what I ws saying.RJ Dalton said:Why is it that I can't mention one political philosophy or the other without people assuming that's my main issue? How many times do I have to keep reminding people that I am a hardcore independent and I view both sides of the political spectrum to be equally wrong in their approach to things? But that's not even the problem I had.Samus Aaron said:Anti-conservative? Sure, the main philosophy of Columbia appears to be heavily rooted in traditionalism, but that's not its main focus at all. It's focusing far more on extreme patriotism and jingoism; anti-conservatism is only a minor component of that.
Read my post again and notice how much attention I was paying to anti-conservativism (one sentence, for which is was not the main focus), then notice how I was complaining about the lack of subtlety (every sentence). Seriously, do you not feel like you're being insulted? Like the game programmers are so sure you're too stupid to get what they're trying to say that they have to bombard you with it at every turn in the most direct manner possible? This is not respecting the intelligence of the audience.
Now, if the gameplay is fun, I don't mind people enjoying it, but I remember people going on at great length about how deep and intelligent Bioshock 1 was. If this is how they went about it, I'm furious that it got praise for its writing, because this is not how it ought to be done.
It should be carefully woven into the narrative. You pick up that things are wrong by the things people say and do when you choose to talk to them, you don't have them preach their shallow philosophies at you. You want to show xenophobia? You see it making front page on discarded newspapers and see a foreigner getting beat up in the background somewhere. You want to show a society that's gone gun-crazy? It should be enough that everybody's got a gun and is more that happy to use it at the slightest provocation.
But having me wake up and the first thing I see be the most over-the-top anti-immigration poster, followed by sign after sign of "they won't take my gun" etc. etc.? That's just insulting.
Did Bioshock 1 do this? I really never had the chance to play it. I heard about some of the details and know more or less what philosophy it was addressing, but I always assumed there was some modicum of restraint on part of the writers.
And being a devoted christian, I liked His Dark Materials by Philip Pulman, a story that's essentially about how evil God and organized religion is. I don't have a problem with books and movies that present a message against my own beliefs if its well told. This is simply not very well told.
My apologies. I got hit by a guy who appeared to have been waiting for a (his own words) "radical response" to the trailer. Guy looking to spout off his "enlightened" (massive irony quotations) perspective against the "crazy, conservative nutjob" (assumed implication of his response). I was still kind of in attack mode (I've always believed the best defense is a good offense). Strangely, you got hit harder than the other guy, but this is mostly because yours seemed the more intelligent response and so I felt it deserved a more in depth reply. Probably shouldn't have answered the other guy.Samus Aaron said:Woah now, no need to go on some sort of rant. Regardless of the fact that, as you say, you were complaining about a lack of subtlety, I wasn't referring to that at all, nor did I need to. Even if it wasn't a main part of your argument, it was still a tenant and therefore subject to criticism. I agree; this game does not appear to be the most subtle game that I've seen, but that fact has nothing to do with what I ws saying.