Trans representation in gaming

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Critical gaming got suspended again?

I read the post and nothing stood out as suspension-worthy. Saying Mario is gay? What if it is true? Certainly seems like it could be. *shrugs*

 

[Terminal Blue]

I have an interesting question: What genre of game lends itself to LGBTQZZWER+ community in a way that actually changes the plot and/or gameplay, 'cause the only genre I can think of it dating sim.

Well, to try and give an honest and developed answer..

There's a concept in media and communications studies which has been filtering through to mainstream discussion for a while, and that's "gaze". You've probably heard it most often in terms of "male gaze", but even then what we mean when we say "male gaze" isn't the gaze of gay males or transmen, it's inevitably a "cisgender, heterosexual male gaze".

So what is gaze?

Well, "gaze" is the way a person or group of people views the world around them, either real or assumed. In media terms, it's the combined body of tropes, assumptions and other metatextual information which tend to crop up in media dominated by or created explicitly for the consumption of a given group. Inevitably, this includes a lot of information about gender because, believe it or not, gender is a really important feature of our society and something all media deals with in one way or another. Men and women tend to see the world differently, heterosexual men tend to see the world differently to gay men, and even when they don't in reality media aimed at them tends to assume they do. That's why fanfiction writers often enjoy genderflipping stories, or changing characters canonical sexual orientations, precisely because it's not irrelevant. Doing so often means fundamentally changing the dynamic of the story and its relationships.

But if you want a concrete example, media aimed at heterosexual men has to be very careful about showing intimacy or emotional closeness between men (heck, media aimed at heterosexual men often has a problem showing intimacy or emotional closeness at all, hence why a lot of media aimed at heterosexual men outright sidesteps this by having characters be walking balls of angst and rage who hate everyone). From an outside perspective, this comes across as weird and almost absurd, yet it's such an intensely prevalent feature of media aimed at straight men.

Trans people, too, have their own perspective on the world. There isn't really a developed "trans gaze" yet in the way there is for other groups in society, because media hasn't really figured out how to market to trans people yet (except, as mentioned, by just literally, endlessly repeating the transitioning story over and over again, which I'm not even sure is actually for the enjoyment of trans people) but one day there will be. You will know when it happens, just as I know most of the time whether a movie or video game was made for heterosexual cis men. It won't necessarily be on the level of explicit plot elements or characters, it will be in the underlying assumptions of how things work. What is gender? What does it mean to have a gender? How does gender shape a character emotionally, behaviourally and in terms of their role in the narrative? Trans people will have a different view on these things, and it will come across in stories written for them.

so what does inclusivity look like in gaming to the point the transgender community is satisfied and the gaming community at large can't say 'well you know the transgender label adds nothing to gameplay or story, so removing it would change absolutely nothing. meaning adding it meant absolutely nothing.'

To specifically address the second point. Never. It's never going to happen. Cis people will never stop feeling that having trans characters, plots or situations "adds nothing to gameplay or story" because these stories are not for them.

Me, I don't get why cis men can't relate to a character unless constantly maintain and prove their masculinity, but I tolerate it because I like games. Can't you just do the same?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Let's keep it classy here, folks.

We're watching.

So what was so bad about Critical Gaming's post that warranted the warning/ban? I've reread the post 3 times and couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I'd like to reply to the thread but don't know if I should since there seems to be some hidden rule about the topic?

Around here you get a warning/ban if you look at someone funny.

This [http://www.returnofkings.com/94131/20-more-degenerate-cultures-of-our-dystopian-society] is what our culture is turning into, so it's safe to say all bets are off as there seem to be no clear cut guidelines anymore.

 

[Terminal Blue]

This is a good start. Then give the player the option to convince this companion to drink a potion that makes them just fine living in their original body.

Have you heard of a thing called "corrective rape?"

No, I don't think we'll be doing that.

 

[McElroy]

This is a good start. Then give the player the option to convince this companion to drink a potion that makes them just fine living in their original body.

Have you heard of a thing called "corrective rape?"

No, I don't think we'll be doing that.

This is what I mean with controversy. Of course it's offensive to rights advocates etc. of today, because of this and that connection which can be made. Like I couldn't lead trans characters to horrible deaths in games where that is possible, but somehow one fantastical solution to a character's identity issues is suddenly worse than the other. I'll take more player choice and story interaction over the butthurt it would cause not only because I don't really care about people getting butthurt, but also because I believe the discussion it would spark would be a good thing.

edit: What I also mean is that you mentioned a bunch of themes in the other post: "What is gender? What does it mean to have a gender? How does gender shape a character emotionally, behaviourally and in terms of their role in the narrative?" Exploring those themes shouldn't be restricted to just the narrative that LGBT advocates and allies have approved.

 

[Saelune]

This is a good start. Then give the player the option to convince this companion to drink a potion that makes them just fine living in their original body.

Have you heard of a thing called "corrective rape?"

No, I don't think we'll be doing that.

This is what I mean with controversy. Of course it's offensive to rights advocates etc. of today, because of this and that connection which can be made. Like I couldn't lead trans characters to horrible deaths in games where that is possible, but somehow one fantastical solution to a character's identity issues is suddenly worse than the other. I'll take more player choice and story interaction over the butthurt it would cause not only because I don't really care about people getting butthurt, but also because I believe the discussion it would spark would be a good thing.

edit: What I also mean is that you mentioned a bunch of themes in the other post: "What is gender? What does it mean to have a gender? How does gender shape a character emotionally, behaviourally and in terms of their role in the narrative?" Exploring those themes shouldn't be restricted to just the narrative that LGBT advocates and allies have approved.

Sincerity goes a long way. I think most sensible LGBT people wont actually get offended if a real honest attempt is made. Most of us can actually tell a sincere thoughtful attempt from one that is pandering or one that is actually offensive.


And I mean, there is this thing called 'sorry'. Just because most people double-down when they do something wrong, doesn't mean they have to. Know how you defuse an offended person? Genuinely apologize to them. If you really meant no offense then it should not be hard to do.


Like, lets say you make a joke and it offends someone. you could either


A) It was just a joke, don't be so sensitive about it


or


B) Sorry, it was just supposed to be a joke and I did not mean to upset you, really.


Guess which one is the better response.

 

[The Lunatic]

Other people's real-life existence is not a player choice. If you think it is, then it's time to stop pretending you have a place in a civilized society.

People die a lot in real life too.
We make games about it all the time.

 

[McElroy]

Sincerity goes a long way. I think most sensible LGBT people wont actually get offended if a real honest attempt is made. Most of us can actually tell a sincere thoughtful attempt from one that is pandering or one that is actually offensive.

And I mean, there is this thing called 'sorry'. Just because most people double-down when they do something wrong, doesn't mean they have to. Know how you defuse an offended person? Genuinely apologize to them. If you really meant no offense then it should not be hard to do.

Like, lets say you make a joke and it offends someone. you could either

A) It was just a joke, don't be so sensitive about it
or
B) Sorry, it was just supposed to be a joke and I did not mean to upset you, really.


Guess which one is the better response.

I like to pretend I'm clever enough to weasel my way out of those situations. But I admit sometimes I've had to apologize too. In this particular topic of trans representation in gaming: I honestly disagree with Pride folk (and of course evilthecat more specifically) over what seems to be a taboo narrative. As I said in my first comment in the thread, I'd like a setting that forgoes the contemporary reality of sex and gender identity, and I'm sticking with that.

Despite

snip

antagonizing me.

 

[Saelune]

Sincerity goes a long way. I think most sensible LGBT people wont actually get offended if a real honest attempt is made. Most of us can actually tell a sincere thoughtful attempt from one that is pandering or one that is actually offensive.

And I mean, there is this thing called 'sorry'. Just because most people double-down when they do something wrong, doesn't mean they have to. Know how you defuse an offended person? Genuinely apologize to them. If you really meant no offense then it should not be hard to do.

Like, lets say you make a joke and it offends someone. you could either

A) It was just a joke, don't be so sensitive about it
or
B) Sorry, it was just supposed to be a joke and I did not mean to upset you, really.


Guess which one is the better response.

I like to pretend I'm clever enough to weasel my way out of those situations. But I admit sometimes I've had to apologize too. In this particular topic of trans representation in gaming: I honestly disagree with Pride folk (and of course evilthecat more specifically) over what seems to be a taboo narrative. As I said in my first comment in the thread, I'd like a setting that forgoes the contemporary reality of sex and gender identity, and I'm sticking with that.

Despite

snip

antagonizing me.

Remember what I said about doubling down?

 

[Terminal Blue]

People die a lot in real life too.
We make games about it all the time.

Sure, and if you were to make overt propaganda games about killing people who specifically actually have to fear being killed in real life, I'd probably bring up the same issue. That doesn't often happen though.

It's easy to draw a distinction between fictional and real violence. It's far harder to draw a distinction between pejorative attitudes within a text and pejorative attitudes we encounter in real life.

 

[The Lunatic]

People die a lot in real life too.
We make games about it all the time.

Sure, and if you were to make overt propaganda games about killing people who specifically actually have to fear being killed in real life, I'd probably bring up the same issue. That doesn't often happen though.

It's easy to draw a distinction between fictional and real violence. It's far harder to draw a distinction between pejorative attitudes within a text and pejorative attitudes we encounter in real life.

I think most people fear dying in real life.
But irrational fears are just that, and games can be a great way to confront them and explore topics. The idea that the topic of death in even the most tragic sense is fine, but, that a completely acceptable storyline where a person ends their mental anguish in a way you don't approve is unacceptable.

I'll remind you at this point, we're talking about Gender Dysphoria, a mental disorder where a person believes themselves to be the other sex. And not a person who is transgendered, or choosing to identify as the other sex, for whatever reason, which may or may not be due to GD.

The resolution to GD is a cession of the mental disorder, transitioning being one treatment to that in our modern society. However, there are people for whom it is not the right course of treatment, and for them I'm sure a game which explores this would be celebrated.

 

[Saelune]

People die a lot in real life too.
We make games about it all the time.

Sure, and if you were to make overt propaganda games about killing people who specifically actually have to fear being killed in real life, I'd probably bring up the same issue. That doesn't often happen though.

It's easy to draw a distinction between fictional and real violence. It's far harder to draw a distinction between pejorative attitudes within a text and pejorative attitudes we encounter in real life.

I think most people fear dying in real life.
But irrational fears are just that, and games can be a great way to confront them and explore topics. The idea that the topic of death in even the most tragic sense is fine, but, that a completely acceptable storyline where a person ends their mental anguish in a way you don't approve is unacceptable.

I'll remind you at this point, we're talking about Gender Dysphoria, a mental disorder where a person believes themselves to be the other sex. And not a person who is transgendered, or choosing to identify as the other sex, for whatever reason, which may or may not be due to GD.

The resolution to GD is a cession of the mental disorder, transitioning being one treatment to that in our modern society. However, there are people for whom it is not the right course of treatment, and for them I'm sure a game which explores this would be celebrated.

This is a hard turn from what we were actually talking about.

 

[Souplex]

The only ones I can think of who definitely fit the bill are Krem from DA: I who is pretty solid, and the waitress whose name escapes me from Catherine.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

if we cant tell, it kind of doesnst work, even though it is sort of counter-intuitive.

This is in fact one of the harder problems to deal with when writing characters with less visible minority traits.

Like, I've likely mentioned this before but I make RPGs for fun. Several of my characters have non-traditional sexuality in some capacity (Bi, non-binary, etc).

Most of them never have it revealed about them because of short run times or there's no natural elegant way to have it come up, and I'd rather not mention it than ham-handedly shove it in. If I make a character like that (because I find it makes them more interesting or cool or whatever), I want to do it right.

 

[McElroy]

Oh darnit, you added more paragraphs to your comment while I was writing mine!

One day, maybe, we will be able to talk about the fantastical possibility of changing a person's gender identity externally. That will be at a time when the self-evident fact that it is, in real life, impossible is universally acknowledged, and where there is not an overwhelming ideological pressure placed on real human beings to deny who they are even at the expense of their own lives to facilitate the comfort of damaged little bigots who are "butthurt" by the fact that real people exist who are different to them.

I'm sorry, but those are just the real conditions we live under. Don't blame trans people, it's not our fault.

One day? For Tumblr and deviantart that was day one! Nobody goes to the comments of the thousands upon thousands of pages of TG-themed comics, literature, and other crap (a bunch of webcomics included, some of which also treat the matter seriously) to complain about how gender identity doesn't work that way in real life. You get my point of view now, yes? They are fun fantasies for everybody.

"What is gender? What does it mean to have a gender? How does gender shape a character emotionally, behaviourally and in terms of their role in the narrative?" Exploring those themes shouldn't be restricted to just the narrative that LGBT advocates and allies have approved.

Also, you entirely missed the point.

Those are not "themes". They are underlying assumptions which exist within almost every story, because every story about human beings must in some way answer these questions. Trans people are intimately, intimately aware of all the weird cultural baggage cis people have about gender. By contrast, you know nothing. That's why you can offer no real commentary on trans people or gender beyond the vacuous political non-debate of whether to "fix" them with magic potions, because you know nothing. You've learned nothing, and as far as you're concerned there's nothing to learn.

That's "gaze", which is what I was talking about.

Alright, point taken.

Remember what I said about doubling down?

Don't be so sensitive :^)

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

One of my favorite game chars of all time is trans. She's a female goddess in a male body. Amaterasu, from Okami, she's in shiranui's body, it being that of a male wolf. She's basically otherkin on top of being trans during her incarnation.

Isn't Amaterasu technically possessing a statue though?
Is there a gender for "female in reanimated object", and what's it called?

No, she literally turns the statue into Shiranui. Also, the people see her how she is when you run out of ink, basically as a big white male wolf. They don't see her divine instruments.

But yeah she definitely isn't just trans, she's otherkin I think. (that's what people who believe they have the souls of dragons and lions and whatnot but are in human bodies, this is like that but the body just isn't human)

But yeah even if it were to be a statue or anything artificial she's be a trans homunculus. Or a Homonculus for pun's sake.

 

[sagitel]

Are you a straight white male? I don't know if you are, but if you are, maybe that is why you do not understand because you ARE heavily represented in gaming, from DOOM Guy, to Master Chief, to Mario, Link, Duke Nukem, virtually every FPS ever, etc.


Many people who are bigoted, are bigoted cause they do not know anyone who they are bigoted against. Many bigoted people find it more difficult to actually be bigoted when someone they are close to is that thing. It is easier to hate black people when you dont know any and every representation of them you see is them as criminals and thugs, but now here is a movie where a black man is a badass superhero!


Seriously, people are ignorantly stupid. Hell, even I as an LGBT person don't fully understand lesbian relationships, since I am anything but. I am not going to oppress them for it, but not everyone is so reasonable.

im a Muslim bi male from middle east. im even less represented in games than trans characters and im fine with that. im with the idea that not EVERY group in the whole damn world needs to be represented. they way im NOT represented and im ok with that

 

[Terminal Blue]

I'll remind you at this point, we're talking about Gender Dysphoria, a mental disorder where a person believes themselves to be the other sex. And not a person who is transgendered, or choosing to identify as the other sex, for whatever reason, which may or may not be due to GD.

Gender Dysphoria is a feeling of "clinically significant distress" caused by a person's gender identity not according with the appearance of their sexed body. A person with GD is transgender by definition, although not every trans person experiences GD and not every person with GD will go on to transition.

The resolution to GD is a cession of the mental disorder, transitioning being one treatment to that in our modern society. However, there are people for whom it is not the right course of treatment, and for them I'm sure a game which explores this would be celebrated.

You know, I'm actually one of those people. I have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and I receive treatment for it, but I've chosen not to medically transition because I'm relatively comfortable living as a male-bodied but gender non-conforming person. It is possible that one day I will feel more comfortable and will identify with being male rather than just male-bodied, but if so it will be due to an organic change in my own gender identity, not due to a magic potion. It is equally possible, and indeed much more likely, that one day I will feel ready to medically transition.

There is no such thing as a magic potion which cures GD, and if there was it would by definition be a means of externally changing a person's gender identity, because that's literally what GD is. So no, even in terms of this fantasy you are talking about going into people's minds and ripping out a huge part of what makes them who they are because you personally don't like it. You are also selling the idea that this is a good thing, that it's a "cure", when in real life it is a path to torture, abuse and suicide.

Look, go fix yourself. Get rid of all your bigotry and weird ideas that everyone needs to be more like you and stop seeing other people's lives as "controversial", then maybe we can have a real conversation between equals, instead of you trying to tell me about my own life, which you don't really understand at all.

 

[sagitel]

if we cant tell, it kind of doesnst work, even though it is sort of counter-intuitive.

This is in fact one of the harder problems to deal with when writing characters with less visible minority traits.

Like, I've likely mentioned this before but I make RPGs for fun. Several of my characters have non-traditional sexuality in some capacity (Bi, non-binary, etc).

Most of them never have it revealed about them because of short run times or there's no natural elegant way to have it come up, and I'd rather not mention it than ham-handedly shove it in. If I make a character like that (because I find it makes them more interesting or cool or whatever), I want to do it right.

sooooo.... those characters dont have those traits? i mean if a character has trait X that never comes up or is revealed or what not do they even have that trait? like say j.k rowling comes out and says i made ron with pink eyes. but since it never came up or was revealed or anything can you even say ron had pink eyes?