This thread is not going well. A lot of people need to calm down and/or show some more respect for fellow posters real quick or it is getting locked.
Trans representation in gaming
- Thread starter Eacaraxe_v1legacy
- Start date
Straight talk time.evilthecat said:
Me too. After a long conversation, my therapist and I decided a regimen of DHT blockers is sufficient to improve QoL while mitigating risk factors and potential long-term health risks. And frankly, I support the development of drugs that would relieve GD without the need to transition, as long as it increases the number of avenues for QoL improvement and gender affirmation for persons with GD, just like I support the development of safer and more widely-available drugs and drug regimens for gender affirmation. More choices to provide patients with tailored treatment regimes to maximize quality-of-life while minimizing short-term and long-term risk is a good thing.
As the state of affairs stand, most drugs in popular use today for HRT are off-label and the long-term health effects aren't well understood. Even the 2014 study which most bring up as definitive to argue HRT is safe, had a mean age of about 32 and a mean follow-up period of five years, and even its results aren't consistent with earlier or later studies which indicates a lack of consensus. It found that HRT can exacerbate preexisting risk factors and that higher-than-expected incidence of hypothyroidism and male-specific cancers existed in the population, and that more studies are needed. That study wasn't even long-term enough to examine incidences of arthritis, osteoporosis, and other skeletal diseases already known to have higher than normal incidence in the trans population, nor long-term incidence of CVD, or impact to the renal or endocrine systems. And at this point, most fallaciously point to HRT studies conducted on cisgender individuals undergoing hormone therapy of their assigned sex as evidence it is safe.
There's dangerously little clinical evidence for the long-term safety of using puberty blockers in otherwise physiologically-healthy teens, to accept it as a standard treatment for questioning and dysphoric teens, when...what, 80-95% of them self-resolve or resolve through therapy?
Now here's the rub. The people studied, were undergoing hormone therapy under monitoring by endocrinologists and adhering to their prescribed treatment regimes. Those results were specific to HRT done right. Let's be honest here, how often does that really happen?
There are a lot of reasons for that, most not being the individual's fault (lack of coverage or professional availability, not being able to afford treatment, legality, etc.), and that I believe is a serious problem which needs to be immediately addressed. But, on the other hand, it's preposterous to categorically deny the trans community has a problem with widespread misinformation about the risk factors and effects of HRT, which lead people to go off-script, request meds with no conclusive evidence of their effectiveness, or worst of all, attempt to self-treat when professional treatment is within their social, professional, or fiscal ability.
The plural of anecdote isn't data, but I will say that when I had this conversation with my therapist (who specializes in LGBT therapy), one thing she grouched about (without breaking confidentiality of course) is the sheer number of people who come into her office with often gross misconceptions about what GD even is and how it's diagnosed, what treatment options are available, how HRT actually works and what its risk factors are, what meds are effective and in what doses, and the importance of continuing treatment. Almost every time it boiled down to the person getting their head chock full of misinformation from forums, blogs, and social media, and they thought they could just skate into her office expecting to walk out with a letter of rec on the first visit, and when she tried to talk to them about expectations and risk factors, they just wouldn't listen.
She's just the therapist I pay. Other therapists I've talked to on a non-professional basis have said similar, if not the same, things. Yeah, it's a bitter fucking pill to swallow when the immediate risk is self-harm and suicide. Believe me, I get it. But, I fervently believe stampeding ahead with the current clinical status quo, and to hell with the consequences, is not the answer.
Now, I want to make it abundantly clear I'm not saying hormone therapy is inherently unsafe, nor that it should be banned or anything. I support transitioning. What I am saying is a lot more research and clinical trials need to be conducted, not in the least part to provide a wider range of safer pharmaceutical products and surgical procedures the intended purpose of which is gender affirmation. And indeed, if one fruit of that labor is a drug that allows people to resolve GD without hormone therapy or surgery, so long as people aren't being coerced into taking it but rather it is one of a wide range of available treatment options, what's the problem?
I disagree with the statement that led to this tangent and didn't feel it was necessarily relevant or appropriate to what I was discussing, but on the other hand the immediate backlash against it was enough to raise my eyebrow and speak up.
Man, why would you link return of kings? I'd actually happily forgotten those idiots existed.. till now.hanselthecaretaker said:
Don't hormones give the best result though. I've seen on TV a trans model who received anti-androgens before puberty and estrogen treatment later and you can hardly tell the difference between her(or formerly him) and an 'actual' woman.Eacaraxe said:
You actually read it? Brave soul..undeadsuitor said:
Ignored their shit ever since they threw their 'Mad Max being taken over by women' tantrum.
Yeah, its not turned into - it already is. And has been for centuries. (Well not the internet part). Like, the term Witch Hunt definitely didnt come from internet times. "Letting go culture"? What? Did someone forget about prohibition? That didn't happen for no reason. Men were too busy getting pissed. Opium wars is another one.hanselthecaretaker said:
I really can't tell if your being sincere or ironic here
Oh, wow, I did not expect to see that whopper in here.trunkage said:
You do realize the temperance movement was started by evangelical Protestants, and was a white supremacist and xenophobic movement to its core, right?
'Not every group needs to be represented' is an argument like 'all lives matters' when trying to put down the Black Lives Matters movement. It sounds all nice and 'equal' on paper, but really just completely misses the point of the movement.sagitel said:
Not really. Not every group needs to be represented makes sense in the video gaming world because not every group lends itself to the game.Saelune said:
Take a FIFA game. Does the trans community need to be represented, considering the players are based off of real life people and we know their gender identity? Do we just change one or two of the guys to be transgender? Or have their profile say they're gay, because gay football are under-represented?
How many lesbians need to be in Five Night's at Freddys? Or how many white people need to be in Assassin's Creed Egypt? Or that stupid controversy about Kingdom Come Deliverance not having enough black people, despite the fact that historically the slave trade hadn't started yet and this is far eastern Europe, Bohemia if I remember correctly.
No one is saying representation isn't important and that strives shouldn't be made, but it seems a futile effort to want every single group to be represented in every single game, regardless of the game.
Let me state it clearly, this is moving the goal posts.Silentpony said:
'I think trans people should be better represented in media'
'Not every group needs to be represented!'
'...I think that TRANS PEOPLE SHOULD BE BETTER REPRESENTED IN MEDIA!'
Seriously, this is basically going 'If we let gay people marry, next they will want to marry their dogs and their lamps'.
Let me double respond to this, cause seriously, NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS!Silentpony said:
I dont think every single possible thing should be represented, and certainly not in every single game ever, but I do think many oppressed groups deserve more representation and of a higher quality than we have.
Things as simple as rescuing a woman's wife or a man's husband in games like Borderlands 2 and ESO. It has poppsed up a few times, and no they dont rub it in your face.
Man: "Please, my husband and I were attacked by bandits and they took him away, please save him!'
Thats it, stuff like that.
He didnt go 'My husband! My male gay husband and my big gay self were hate crimed attack by bigot bandits, and my gay husband needs to be gayly saved by you, strong sexy Mr Hero, oh, but maybe you should be my new husband, but anyways, kill those damn righty bigot bandits'
And no, I dont think we need to turn Master Chief or Samus Aran into LGBT characters or anything either.
To be fair they did with Mr. Torgue in BL2, but my take on that was they were poking fun at how LGBT's are represented in games in general, and thus not to be taken at face value.Saelune said:
I gotta admit, the OP gave me cognitive whiplash.
The same people that cry "SJW" every time there's some sort of LGBT and/or minority representation in games absolutely cried SJW over Cortez, complete with the same "shoehorned in, no personality besides gay" "arguments".
Or that random background gal in The Division when she offhandedly mentioned her wife.
The same people that cry "SJW" every time there's some sort of LGBT and/or minority representation in games absolutely cried SJW over Cortez, complete with the same "shoehorned in, no personality besides gay" "arguments".
Or that random background gal in The Division when she offhandedly mentioned her wife.
Okay, so I appreciate the straight talk, because the first thing you have to realise is that every argument you have made has been thoroughly, thoroughly appropriated by people who are actively working against the interests of trans people. I have heard these arguments so many times, in the past few years. They come from the mouths of the same people who talk about autogynophilia, who claim that trans women "rape" cis women by existing, or who talk about their trans children as having been stolen by a "cult".Eacaraxe said:
Firstly, let's do a thought experiment. Imagine a child is abused or neglected by their parents. The child begins to show signs of trauma consistent with PTSD. They feel an intense sense of shame, they feel guilty and unloved and they experience extreme distress and dissociation when reminded of abusive experiences.
Now, let's say I produce a magical drug. It doesn't alter the child's memory of being abused by their parents, they still remember everything that has been done to them, but instead of feeling sad about it they feel happy. The drug reprograms their brains and forces them to believe that the abuse they received was a sign of love, that they weren't terrified and miserable but were actually happy and content. If we give the child the drug, then their PTSD symptoms abate because the memory is no longer traumatizing. They are a good child now, they interact normally with their peers and are able to stay with their parents and be a good son or daughter, a normal son or daughter.
Isn't that the most important thing? Being normal.
Perhaps now you are beginning to see the problem, but just in case, let me break it down. Firstly, a drug which changes a person's gender identity is not going to happen, just like a drug which intimately reprograms how a person feels about a particular memory isn't going to happen. Memory, incidentally, it's far, far more mutable than identity. Memory is very, very suggestible, which is why recovered memories are no longer admissable as evidence in criminal trials (and may indeed be grounds for malpractice). Identity, however, is incredibly hard to change. The lengths to which people have gone to try and change identity is so horrifying I'm not going to dwell on it, and yet it remains impossible.
But let's move on to the big issue. The problem in the above case is not that the child does not behave normally or love their parents. In fact, the child is not the problem at all. The problem is the parents and the abuse, and the clinical priority has to be to safeguard the child from the parents.
Being in any way gender non-conforming in this society, whether it stems from gender identity, sexual orientation or just not meeting the arbitrary societal standard for masculinity or femininity, is hard, it's difficult, it brings the constant risk of abuse and non-acceptance. The idea that a person should not feel sad or confused. The idea that if they do it's somehow their fault and that the priority should be to make them normal so that they're not a problem any more.. I don't know if you find that idea as gross as I do, but I find it really, really, really gross, and I don't think it helps anyone. As my psychiatrist once told me, the human mind is not a car engine. You don't get to rip out the parts you think aren't working properly and replace them with proper "functional" parts, and if you could, then you certainly shouldn't be allowing random bigots to decide what does and doesn't count as a "functional" part.
So, that said, let's move on to the technicalities.
1) Firstly, the idea that puberty blockers are automatically given out to any child who questions their gender identity is.. well.. it's not true. It's the kind of thing people come out with when they think the "trans lobby" is trying to steal their kids for the "trans cult". People who work with trans kids are, in my experience, generally very aware of the complexities of the situation.
2) Whatever the "risks" of puberty blockers, which frankly I think you are exaggerating to begin with, they utterly pale in comparison to the difficulty, the cost, and the risk of reversing puberty, and this is without factoring in the psychological risks of forcing a trans child through an unwanted puberty.
3) While I can sympathise with medical professionals who are put into a fairly unenviable position let's be real. The vast majority of people who are referred to Gender Clinics have experienced a huge amount of abuse, hostility and denial from people around them. Some will have been rejected or disowned by their own families. It is reasonable to expect that people in that position will be suspicious and hostile of anything that sounds like denial, because the chances are they have already faced denial.
Like, I have a degree in gender studies. I'm coming up to having two. If anyone should be able to talk about their gender identity clearly and articulately, you'd think it would be me, but I was a wreck in my first assessment. I ended up bursting into tears. I went in feeling like I had no choice, I couldn't face things carrying on as they were, so I had to transition even though it wasn't really what I'd wanted. That was the only way I felt I would be taken seriously, or that I could have any kind of fulfilling life. I was wrong, and I wasn't thinking straight, but I wasn't thinking straight because noone had ever told me that the way I felt was okay, noone had ever helped me to process it. All I had ever gotten from anyone is denial. I've literally been told things like "it's just a phase" and "you'll get over it". Noone needs to hear that. Noone who has heard that wants to hear anything which remotely sounds like it ever again.
You know what else the trans community has a problem with. Alcoholism, drug abuse and suicide. It can sometimes be a hard life, and expecting people who are going through the worst bits of a hard life to always be civil and reasonable and make good decisions all the time is kind of in itself unreasonable.
Now, if your argument is that gender identity is too medicalized, that's something I can agree with. But the biggest obstacles to demedicalization aren't trans people, it's conservatives and TERFs who continue to insist on aggressive medicalization because they genuinely believe being trans is a mental disorder. They want the process of changing gender to be a dehumanising and humiliating process carried out by a hostile medical establishment, because at the end of the day they don't want anyone to be able to do it, and they want those who do to be so ashamed and scarred by the process that they won't speak about it.
Again, who is at fault? The person who is abused and behaves abnormally, or the person who abuses them, but can still put on the facade of not to being a monster.
The idea that just because someone is of your group, that you can identify more with them than with someone of a different group is in itself kinda primitively tribalistic, is it not?
Shouldn't we endeavor to develop empathy and through it the ability to identify with people from all groups? I don't have an issue with identifying with good chars whatever they happen to be (and Kratos is someone from my group as a Greek dude that I most definitely did not identify with, for one) and just because most game chars happen not to be in this one group does not somehow prevent you from identifying with them.
I think this is all a battle about power and influence and control, not about the true betterment of gaming. As such, I don't think it's all that interesting, since I only care about the betterment of gaming when discussing game content.
Shouldn't we endeavor to develop empathy and through it the ability to identify with people from all groups? I don't have an issue with identifying with good chars whatever they happen to be (and Kratos is someone from my group as a Greek dude that I most definitely did not identify with, for one) and just because most game chars happen not to be in this one group does not somehow prevent you from identifying with them.
I think this is all a battle about power and influence and control, not about the true betterment of gaming. As such, I don't think it's all that interesting, since I only care about the betterment of gaming when discussing game content.
Right, it does. So if anyone fails to identify with good chars just because they happen to not be straight men or what have you, that'd also be just as wrong.undeadsuitor said:
That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.
And like I said earlier, one of my all time fav chars is a trans protagonist. Amaterasu from Okami, she's a female goddess in a male wolf's body. She's not even human and I had zero issues identifying with her and adoring the game she was the protagonist of. (and you can hardly call a 40+ hour story driven epic adventure a game short on characterization)