Trash-Talking Sony Engineer Blasts Kinect Lightsaber Game

[Siberian Relic]

Blacked out after the ego hit me.

 

[monnes]

You are completely incorrect on all fronts, and I have a distinct feeling that no amount of my correcting you will prevent you from continuing to be ignorant.

I'm glad to know that you are capable of having a reasonable discussion about this. How about some reasons on why I'm wrong? I have data to back myself up. For instance, Playstation Move has been shown to have true 1 to 1 motion sensing. The problem is that it's just as expensive as a Wii remote with Wii motion plus (which is so close to 1 to 1 sensing that most won't notice the difference), and everyone already has a Wii, whether Sony has the idea first (as they claim) or not. In Kinect vs. Eyetoy, the main issue is that Eyetoy is largely, well, broken. I've used it in a well-lit enviroment, and the Eyetoy just plain didn't work. Everything I've heard about Kinect is largely that it works well. It also happens to have a terrible software library.

Of course, none of them are as good as a plain old mouse and keyboard, but they all are way more fun than someone who trolls for Sony any day.

While the Eyetoy is pretty bad, and the kinect is certainly alot better, it has quite a few problems itself, including lag and space requirment. The Move is actually a lot better than the wiimote, even with motion plus. It's still pretty far from 1 to 1, and is not nearly precise enough for some types of games, such as FPS. The Move, while more difficult to use than a regular controller, works fine for that sort of precise gaming.

 

[Shale_Dirk]

You are completely incorrect on all fronts, and I have a distinct feeling that no amount of my correcting you will prevent you from continuing to be ignorant.

I'm glad to know that you are capable of having a reasonable discussion about this. How about some reasons on why I'm wrong? I have data to back myself up. For instance, Playstation Move has been shown to have true 1 to 1 motion sensing. The problem is that it's just as expensive as a Wii remote with Wii motion plus (which is so close to 1 to 1 sensing that most won't notice the difference), and everyone already has a Wii, whether Sony has the idea first (as they claim) or not. In Kinect vs. Eyetoy, the main issue is that Eyetoy is largely, well, broken. I've used it in a well-lit enviroment, and the Eyetoy just plain didn't work. Everything I've heard about Kinect is largely that it works well. It also happens to have a terrible software library.

Of course, none of them are as good as a plain old mouse and keyboard, but they all are way more fun than someone who trolls for Sony any day.

The primary difference between the Playstation Move and Wii Motion Plus is that regardless of the sensory add-ons that Motion Plus gives, it is still restricted by infrared technology. The actual placement of the Wiimote can't be tracked when it's not pointing within the ~45 degrees of the sensor bar. To make up for this, it uses motion tracking; but at that point, the immersion is usually broken because you're being told to point away from the screen and perform some arbitrary motion (stir, use the remote like a wheel, etc). That's fine for minigame platforms and games that base themselves on these motions, like driving games, but limits itself from games that sell themselves to be immersive. The Move, on the other hand, is able to be tracked in 3D space regardless of it being pointed towards the Eyetoy. As long as you're not covering the tracking ball, or hiding it behind your back, you're still visually represented in the system, on top of the same motion sensing abilities that the Wiimote plus gives. This opens the usability spectrum much wider than what the Wii can give through its outdated IR tech.

The Eyetoy is not broken in the slightest. If you're using tech that tracks a sensor ball being lit up, an infant could figure out that you should probably turn down the lights a little. I haven't had a single issue with 'dropping out' when testing out the Move, and I can't say the same for when I tried using Kinect.

So, in summary, 1-1 motion sensing in 3D space, usable from all angles, with no marked lag when implemented properly by the developers. It has obvious, documented, proven perks above both the WiiMote and Kinect, and the denial of such is usually indicative of fanboyism.

 

[Mako SOLDIER]

Strong words. Let's see if he keeps them.

As for Kinect with lightsabers, wouldn't having a stick to simulate the saber defeat the purpose of Kinect?

Not in the slightest. If you are controlling movement, force powers, etc with your body then holding some kind of small prop (it doesn't have to be the full length of the lighsaber after all) doesn't render everything else irrelevant. What Kinect does is remove the necessity to hold something, but when doing so adds to the experience (using something as a lightsaber is not the same as holding a controller by a long shot) then it's not exactly a betrayal of the idea behind Kinect to use it.

From what Microsoft have been hyping up with the Kinect, they seem to be taking the opposite approach in that Kinect is a "completely new platform!" or something like that.

I have no problem with Kinect being used as an add-on or an enhancement to games, but I don't think Microsoft are taking that approach.

And what you described is essentially the Move. I mean, it's already got the camera and the wiimote thingamajig, it's pretty much the median between the Wii and Kinect.

Yes and no. Obviously the Kinect might (I say might because although it's likely, we just don't know yet) require some kind of prop in order to detect things like sword swings as accurately as the move, but it's not really the same. After all, the move cannot detect full body motion, whereas (as much as it sounds like hyperbole if you haven't used Kinect yet) Kinect really can and it works very well indeed. With Move, you could accurately control a lightsaber, then perhaps press a button to switch the 'wand' to a different function for force powers. With Kinect, you could swing a lightsaber, literally roar (perhaps in order to kinda 'power up' a dark side ability), then thrust on hand out while you're still swinging the lightsaber one-handed at a nearby enemy to your right to either force push or force lightning someone ahead of you. While doing this you could be (at the same time) ducking under (or diving to the side to avoid) a gunshot, something that another force user has thrown at you, etc. With move you wouldn't be able to do all this at once (or some of it at all), and you certainly wouldn't be able to cycle through functions quickly enough for it to be a natural, intuitive experience. Sure, move is definitely an excellent evolution of the wii, and for something like a Red Steel sequel it would be the superior platform, but for something that could feasibly use gesture and voice too, adding a prop doesn't really turn the Kinect into the move.

 

[Jumplion]

Yes and no. Obviously the Kinect might (I say might because although it's likely, we just don't know yet) require some kind of prop in order to detect things like sword swings as accurately as the move, but it's not really the same. After all, the move cannot detect full body motion, whereas (as much as it sounds like hyperbole if you haven't used Kinect yet) Kinect really can and it works very well indeed.

Yes it can. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LrfhXs9yyA] The Move has a camera, much like the Kinect (I think it also has some voice recognition, though I'm probably pulling that out of my ass), though I'll admit that I might be a bit too broad on the definition of "full body motion." It's still very similar to what Kinect can do, and so far I've experimented with both and they've both had their similarities and differences.

Quite frankly, we should probably perfect regular motion controls [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjEHIUO0iK8&feature=related] before moving on to the Kinect stuff (see? I can make fun of Sony to! I'm not a fanboy, I have a sense of humour! WOO!)

With Move, you could accurately control a lightsaber, then perhaps press a button to switch the 'wand' to a different function for force powers. With Kinect, you could swing a lightsaber, literally roar (perhaps in order to kinda 'power up' a dark side ability), then thrust on hand out while you're still swinging the lightsaber one-handed at a nearby enemy to your right to either force push or force lightning someone ahead of you.

Technically you could use either 2 of the Move wands or one wand and one navigation controller, but whatevs, I see your overall point, but that remains to be seen.

While doing this you could be (at the same time) ducking under (or diving to the side to avoid) a gunshot, something that another force user has thrown at you, etc. With move you wouldn't be able to do all this at once (or some of it at all), and you certainly wouldn't be able to cycle through functions quickly enough for it to be a natural, intuitive experience. Sure, move is definitely an excellent evolution of the wii, and for something like a Red Steel sequel it would be the superior platform, but for something that could feasibly use gesture and voice too, adding a prop doesn't really turn the Kinect into the move.

While I do see your points, I come back to the fact that Microsoft aren't really approaching it this way. They're touting it as a whole 'nutha platform [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.232957-Kinect-Will-Be-the-Biggest-Platform-Launch-Ever-Says-Microsoft?page=1], not as a peripheral/add-on to the games. It worries me that you are probably more sane than Microsoft's marketing department.

Though it may sound like I'm bashing Microsoft and their Kinect, I'm honestly not trying to. Kinect does look like an interesting piece of technology, and I'm the kind of guy that would promote elctronic goat-shit as an innovation because, hey, when was the last time you've seen electronic shit?

But that's beside the point, and the end of my ranting for now. Tally ho.

 

[Mako SOLDIER]

Yes it can. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LrfhXs9yyA] The Move has a camera, much like the Kinect (I think it also has some voice recognition, though I'm probably pulling that out of my ass), though I'll admit that I might be a bit too broad on the definition of "full body motion."

A little broad yeah, but I see your point. The thing is, Move's camera is there primarily to track the glowing balls on the end of the wands(!). without the IR sensors that Kinect uses, the only thing being tracked in 3 dimensions is the position of the wands, leaving any other features picked up by the cameras only visible to the system as a flat image (of course they could use the idea that 'if something gets bigger it must be moving closer', but that isn't really very accurate. Other than that it just uses 'edge detection', which is a bit basic).

Not sure about voice recognition in the Move camera. Doing research after reading your comment, it does have a microphone that can be used for that, but it looks like it's something the devs need to program rather than being handled by onboard processing. Not a huge difference, but the Kinect's voice recognition tech seems pretty sophisticated so far.

Quite frankly, we should probably perfect regular motion controls [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjEHIUO0iK8&feature=related] before moving on to the Kinect stuff (see? I can make fun of Sony to! I'm not a fanboy, I have a sense of humour! WOO!)

Good to know

Technically you could use either 2 of the Move wands or one wand and one navigation controller, but whatevs, I see your overall point, but that remains to be seen.

Absolutely, and I can see that working rather well for all but the full body movement. I'm not sure about having to buy an extra wand in order to play a game though. However, that's an issue of standardisation rather than of cost (I just spent £120 on my Kinect, and I'd happily pay another £30ish for the tv mount, so it would be a moot point to claim pricing is a huge issue. If someone is committed to the new motion control systems then they'll do what's necessary so long as the game is good). You're right though, it does remain to be seen, but if I've had the idea, it's reasonable to bet that a dev somewhere is mulling it over too. After all, if I were some kind of game design genius I would be working in the industry rather than debating hardware merits on a forum I mean, how many existing Xbox devs are huge advocates of casual gaming? Not many from the look of things, but I bet they've all been sent the Kinect hardware and the relevant dev tools.

While I do see your points, I come back to the fact that Microsoft aren't really approaching it this way. They're touting it as a whole 'nutha platform [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.232957-Kinect-Will-Be-the-Biggest-Platform-Launch-Ever-Says-Microsoft?page=1], not as a peripheral/add-on to the games. It worries me that you are probably more sane than Microsoft's marketing department.

That said, MS have also (and much more recently I might add) announced that they are dedicated to 'hardcore' titles using Kinect, as well as 'hybrid' games using both Kinect and a regular controller. It remains to be seen what they come up with, but if the Kinect version of Steel Batallion plays well, then Kinect will have proven itself as worthwhile for hardcore gaming IMO. Plus, Project Draco already seems pretty exciting so far. I mean come on, it's essentially a Panzer Dragoon game where you have to train your dragon by physically and vocally interact with it. If they pull that off, it's going to be something pretty special. I personally have a design document in the works for a full free roaming 3D rpg that uses only the Kinect capabilities that I have seen working with my own eyes and is pretty full featured so far. Not to mention, as I've already posted on here in a few places, a Magic Carpet remake would be pretty much perfect for it (people who claim that standing up for more than ten minutes at a time, leaning to turn, crouching to speed up, etc are too strenuous are either a/ significantly unfit, b/ not going to buy Kinect anyway, or c/ both. Probably c). And let's not forget that Epic are working on a Gears of War title for Kinect. They must have seen some potential in it to commit that much effort to it, not to mention their reputation. It doesn't come much more hardcore than Gears (as far as over-the-shoulder gritty Xbox shooters go anyway).

Though it may sound like I'm bashing Microsoft and their Kinect, I'm honestly not trying to.

Not at all, interesting debate is an objective in itself Likewise I'm not trying to downplay the Move. After all, as much as I'm an advocate of it, Kinect will always have certain hurdles to conquer. For example, moving forwards, backwards, left and right can be done, but after a few paces it's not as simple as just walking in that direction. There are ways around it, I've mulled a few of them over for the aforementioned Free-Roam RPG, but outside of twin-stick mech movement that aspect will never be as intuitive as a d-pad or analogue stick, which Move already has. Peter Molyneux (bear with me) claims he tried to persuade Microsoft to add a controller of some sort to the Kinect system, and I would guess it would have been something very similar to the Move navigation controller or the Wii nunchuck. The guy may be the king of 'let's do this crazy thing for the sake of experimentation and innovation whether it actually works in the context of a game or not', but he had a point there.

I think it's pretty much impossible to claim the Move is more than a significantly improved version of the Wii, but the thing is, that really isn't a bad thing at all. When I first heard about the Wii my mind went a little crazy with the possibilities of it. Turned out that the games just didn't materialise to realise that potential, and the tech was usable at best and downright ropey at worst. Move should hopefully deliver on all of that unrealised potential, because while the idea isn't all that different it has actually been implemented very solidly indeed.

In the long run, I'm intrigued to see where the whole new wave of motion control devices takes us. Unlike many, I don't see motion control in general as a bad gimmick, rather I see it as an idea that hasn't shown us its best yet. Time will tell...

 

[Jumplion]

Snip

I'm not going to respond to all that, but as I love to have the last word in most anything, I guess we've both reached an understanding to each other's points. It remains to be seen what Kinect and Move can offer, but I'm very excited to see what either one will give to us. Anyone who cries out "gimmick(s)!" either hasn't experimented with the devices or are just afraid of change in general.