Trump assassination attempt

[Silvanus]

You do not have that. You have short term self-reported data with no control to compare to. "We asked people who made major life changes if they think they made a terrible mistake, and they mostly said no" isn't data and research.

QOL indicators are pretty much the sole available metric for the success of care procedures like this. Suicide and self-harm also reduce significantly, which is not just self-reportage-- and that includes comparisons with 'control' groups of those who haven't undergone gender affirming care.

So, you want to judge the success of a care procedure aimed at improving QOL... while simultaneously dismissing QOL indicators as valid evidence. So far, so unreasonable. What do you want us to go by instead? You want us to be guided instead by your iron-age superstitions?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

You have short term self-reported data with no control to compare to.

And what do you have?

 

[Eacaraxe]

You do not have that. You have short term self-reported data with no control to compare to.

Well, if you'd prefer a discussion of the anthropological evidence supporting gender as a nonbinary construct, much of which predates Christianity by several thousand years and spans cultures across the globe -- most of which with no mutual contact -- I'm more than happy to throw in. Other than that, you're criticizing a field of study that's barely existed (in the West) forty years, for having existed barely forty years.

And of the century or so that non-cishetero identities have even been acknowledged (in the West), the majority of that time was spent in pursuit of white, European, Christian, imperialist pseudoscientific nonsense to justify religious and cultural persecution.

 

[tstorm823]

And what do you have?

All of human history before the last half century.

Well, if you'd prefer a discussion of the anthropological evidence supporting gender as a nonbinary construct, much of which predates Christianity by several thousand years and spans cultures across the globe -- most of which with no mutual contact -- I'm more than happy to throw in. Other than that, you're criticizing a field of study that's barely existed (in the West) forty years, for having existed barely forty years.

And of the century or so that non-cishetero identities have even been acknowledged (in the West), the majority of that time was spent in pursuit of white, European, Christian, imperialist pseudoscientific nonsense to justify religious and cultural persecution.

If you think through everything you just said, you'll realize I'm right. Do any of those independently occuring peoples existing outside gender binaries require gender affirmation or they'd kill themselves? Did they require hormone therapy to exist? Absolutely not.

Behaving outside gender binaries is not only normal to have in a society, but it's normal for any given person at moments in their life. The entire idea of being "transgender" is to define people by their nonconformity to social expectations, in exactly the same way as those who might be persecutors would. You're not going to help people by grouping them off as other without any clear meaning as to how, no matter how much pity you throw in.

QOL indicators are pretty much the sole available metric for the success of care procedures like this. Suicide and self-harm also reduce significantly, which is not just self-reportage-- and that includes comparisons with 'control' groups of those who haven't undergone gender affirming care.

But you aren't comparing to people who haven't been convinced they are intrinsically "other". Your position convinces people they are the other to the point of suicide, and then offers drastic solutions to the problems you've all collectively imagined, and sometimes they feel better about the problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[Eacaraxe]

If you think through everything you just said, you'll realize I'm right.

Oh, indeed, let's check what I said for veracity and to see if you were in fact right. I eagerly await the results.

Do any of those independently occuring peoples existing outside gender binaries require gender affirmation or they'd kill themselves?

Exactly what part of being a welcome and active part in society -- and in some cases relegated to privileged and clerical roles -- with identities all to their own isn't affirmative?

Did they require hormone therapy to exist? Absolutely not.

Nobody tell him about historical evidence for the use of medicinal plants for feminizing effects, as an offshoot of their use for menopause treatment.

...The entire idea of being "transgender" is to define people by their nonconformity to social expectations...

Dare I ask which organization is more responsible than any other for setting those expectations in the West?

Your position convinces people they are the other to the point of suicide, and then offers drastic solutions to the problems you've all collectively imagined, and sometimes they feel better about the problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

I'm reasonably sure the century of commitment, isolation, electroconvulsive "therapy", pharmaceutical-driven aversion therapy, lobotomization, chemical and surgical castration, implantation with animal organs, and straight-up physical torture isn't merely the product of my imagination.

But hey, if you can imagine a scenario in which murking yourself couldn't be considered a preferable alternative to being locked up in an asylum, pumped full of LSD and emetics and forced to watch gay porn, having your nuts surgically removed and replaced by literal monkey nuts, all before being eventually lobotomized, please by all means share.

 

[tstorm823]

Exactly what part of being a welcome and active part in society -- and in some cases relegated to privileged and clerical roles -- with identities all to their own isn't affirmative?

Those are socially assigned roles being affirmed, not the "gender" we are discussing. Nobody is innately a cleric. There are equally distinct social roles between a married man and a celibate priest that one could just as well treat as a distinct gender if you want, are all priests actually trans now?

Nobody tell him about historical evidence for the use of medicinal plants for feminizing effects, as an offshoot of their use for menopause treatment.

Now that's just made up nonsense.

Dare I ask which organization is more responsible than any other for setting those expectations in the West?

It's definitely not the Catholic Church, if that's what you're after. The elevation of vocation, some of which can only be performed with the right body, is not forced gender roles.

I'm reasonably sure the century of commitment, isolation, electroconvulsive "therapy", pharmaceutical-driven aversion therapy, lobotomization, chemical and surgical castration, implantation with animal organs, and straight-up physical torture isn't merely the product of my imagination.

You follow in the legacy of all of these things. You share the same goals, you just think you have better methods to achieve them.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

All of human history before the last half century.

The Galli: Breaking Roman Gender Norms

The Galli were Roman priests with ambiguous gender identities, and many modern transgender and nonbinary people have since identified with them. Here we consider their role in Roman society and literature and investigate their presence in Roman Britain.

www.english-heritage.org.uk

Would you like to continue being wrong? I understand if you do; you're really good at it.

 

[tstorm823]

The Galli: Breaking Roman Gender Norms

The Galli were Roman priests with ambiguous gender identities, and many modern transgender and nonbinary people have since identified with them. Here we consider their role in Roman society and literature and investigate their presence in Roman Britain.

www.english-heritage.org.uk

Would you like to continue being wrong? I understand if you do; you're really good at it.

You're supporting my argument, dumdum.

 

[Silvanus]

But you aren't comparing to people who haven't been convinced they are intrinsically "other".

So you want to compare members of an abused minority undergoing care with people who aren't in an abused minority at all, and think the differences in QOL between them would be a reflection on the care process...? No, that's transparently nonsensical. You may as well compare people undergoing appendicitis surgery with people who aren't suffering from appendicitis at all, concluding that the surgery must be really awful because people without the condition fare better.

Your position convinces people they are the other to the point of suicide [...]

Nope, they themselves are the ones reporting their own experiences, feelings and identities. "My position" is listening to what they say, in conjunction with expert research on the best approach to it.

Your position is still the only one here trying to convince people to deny their sense of self and identity to conform to your rigid notion of sex determinism.

 

[dreng3]

Nope, they themselves are the ones reporting their own experiences, feelings and identities. "My position" is listening to what they say, in conjunction with expert research on the best approach to it.

Your position is still the only one here trying to convince people to deny their sense of self and identity to conform to your rigid notion of sex determinism.

Listen, if only people respressed themselves harder they'd be perfectly able to have absolutely miserable inner-lives while still appearing moderatly normal on the outside, and isn't that all that matters?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Your position convinces people they are the other to the point of suicide, and then offers drastic solutions to the problems you've all collectively imagined, and sometimes they feel better about the problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Do you actually think that there are people out there actively trying to convince non-trans people that they are in fact trans? I can guarantee you that this isn't a thing that's happening.

 

[tstorm823]

Do you actually think that there are people out there actively trying to convince non-trans people that they are in fact trans? I can guarantee you that this isn't a thing that's happening.

No, I'm saying trans is made up, and your affirmations push people further. Nobody is trans. I'm not saying their feelings are fake, not saying they ought to conform to gender stereotypes, I'm saying that they are people like anyone else. You go back into history and find all these examples of people of different gender expressions, and they largely did better than trans now. It's not because we suddenly became oppressive in the last 50 years, it's because trans theory is different than just having different gender expression.

People think they are born in the wrong body, that they are different in kind than most people, and it isn't true. Imagine a teenager comes up to you and says they don't feel comfortable in their body, and they feel alone and different from their friends. These are normal feelings in puberty. And then you say "yes, I affirm your feelings, what you say is true." No, that isn't trying to convince someone they are trans, but your affirmation is psychotic. That is a horrible thing to validate, cause it isn't true and it makes them feel terrible.

Nope, they themselves are the ones reporting their own experiences, feelings and identities.

Teenager: I feel like I was born wrong and everyone hates me.
Silvanus: I affirm and validate your feelings.

 

[Silvanus]

Teenager: I feel like I was born wrong and everyone hates me.
Silvanus: I affirm and validate your feelings.

You have so little grasp of what trans people actually feel, and what gender-affirming care actually is, that you have to reduce it to these hateful little strawmen. It's kind of sad-- but then, their wellbeing isn't your actual concern. It's an excuse.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

You have so little grasp of what trans people actually feel, and what gender-affirming care actually is, that you have to reduce it to these hateful little strawmen. It's kind of sad-- but then, their wellbeing isn't your actual concern. It's an excuse.

Tstorm is concerned for his own wellbeing- the wellbeing of his tender ego, of his fragile faith, both of which are threatened by the idea of other people being free to not be exactly like him. How can he walk down the street confident in his own awesomeness, in his own rightness by God, when that awesomeness and rightness aren't reinforced at every step?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

You follow in the legacy of all of these things. You share the same goals, you just think you have better methods to achieve them.

You are comparing procedures that people are asking for voluntarily to procedures that were forced upon people against their will, and you somehow believe that these things are equal and have the same goals. Insane.

 

[BrawlMan]

Let's get this back on track. Enough with tstorm's nonsense.

Trump shooter flew drone over venue hours before attempted assassination, source says

The gunman was killed after he shot former President Donald Trump in the ear in an assassination attempt. A motive remains unknown.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

No, I'm saying trans is made up, and your affirmations push people further. Nobody is trans. I'm not saying their feelings are fake, not saying they ought to conform to gender stereotypes, I'm saying that they are people like anyone else. You go back into history and find all these examples of people of different gender expressions, and they largely did better than trans now. It's not because we suddenly became oppressive in the last 50 years, it's because trans theory is different than just having different gender expression.

People think they are born in the wrong body, that they are different in kind than most people, and it isn't true. Imagine a teenager comes up to you and says they don't feel comfortable in their body, and they feel alone and different from their friends. These are normal feelings in puberty. And then you say "yes, I affirm your feelings, what you say is true." No, that isn't trying to convince someone they are trans, but your affirmation is psychotic. That is a horrible thing to validate, cause it isn't true and it makes them feel terrible.

I think what Tstorm is trying to say here is that he hates trans people but loves femboys.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Let's get this back on track. Enough with tstorm's nonsense.

Trump shooter flew drone over venue hours before attempted assassination, source says

The gunman was killed after he shot former President Donald Trump in the ear in an assassination attempt. A motive remains unknown.

www.nbcnews.com

Good lord, he did all but email the Secret Service and tell them he was gonna shoot Trump

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

No, I'm saying trans is made up, and your affirmations push people further. Nobody is trans. I'm not saying their feelings are fake, not saying they ought to conform to gender stereotypes, I'm saying that they are people like anyone else. You go back into history and find all these examples of people of different gender expressions, and they largely did better than trans now. It's not because we suddenly became oppressive in the last 50 years, it's because trans theory is different than just having different gender expression.

lol. lmao, even. It is *absolutely* because you've suddenly got more oppressive over the last 15 years. Historically, one in a thousand kids would be an oddity and now it's one in a hundred thousand kids being an emergency you need nationwide state power to ban, to the point of labeling *anything* with trans people in it pornography


The wild thing is that you need this rambling diversion because otherwise you'd have to settle with the cold, gnawing fact that every GOP policy proposal would make it easier for this school shooter ************ to try and tag your own guy. The cops are flagrantly incompetent despite having budgets that rival militaries, the Secret Service is an understaffed government agency, just like how you want it, the gun was entirely legal while you argue it should be more legal

You made this bed

 

[tstorm823]

You are comparing procedures that people are asking for voluntarily to procedures that were forced upon people against their will, and you somehow believe that these things are equal and have the same goals. Insane.

Much like transitions, the vast majority of sexual orientation change efforts were entered into voluntarily by people whom doctors had told that they had a pathology that needed treatment. You have an image in your head of gay people strapped down and electrocuted against their will, but people did that just as willingly as "medical transitions" now.

You have so little grasp of what trans people actually feel, and what gender-affirming care actually is, that you have to reduce it to these hateful little strawmen. It's kind of sad-- but then, their wellbeing isn't your actual concern. It's an excuse.

You don't even think about things, you are so blindly partisan. Imagine a Republican suggesting we drug kids who don't act the way we want them to. It is psychotic, and some day maybe you'll notice.

lol. lmao, even. It is *absolutely* because you've suddenly got more oppressive over the last 15 years.

You're delusional. You just don't live in reality.