Ukraine

Silvanus

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The mother of a Russian soldier (who was aboard the Moskva) is reporting that the authorities are refusing to pay the compensation to which she is entitled unless she signs a statement that includes that the Moskva was not struck by Ukrainian missiles.


We already know a large proportion of Russian personnel are unwilling conscripts or mercenaries. But you have to wonder how much worse morale would be if servicemen knew that their military service also directly puts their loved ones in danger of extortion and intimidation by the state.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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This. Europe has spend the last 20 years appeasing Russia and not humiliating it and being extra nice. We've danced the Chamberlain for the Kremlin. We ought to change our tune.
So the question stands: What do we do to stop Russia that doesn't result in some very large and spicy mushrooms sprouting up all over the world?
 
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Terminal Blue

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So the question stands: What do we do to stop Russia that doesn't result in some very large and spicy mushrooms sprouting up all over the world?
I mean, Russia has a nuclear doctrine, and it's actually a pretty sensible one. I don't think there's any reason to think they'll break the terms of that doctrine (especially over the Ukraine conflict which Russia doesn't even regard as a war) because if that was on the cards they'd absolutely want foreign governments to know about it so they can avoid crossing whatever the new lines are.

We are lucky enough to live in an age where noone is stupid enough to want a nuclear war. The Russian political class certainly don't want a nuclear war, it would really ruin the property prices on those mansions they bought with appropriated public funds. It would be much less painful for Russia to lose the war in Ukraine and then go on state TV and say that actually it was a win, the mission was accomplished and they secured a promise from Ukraine to stop being Nazis immediately than it would be to launch a nuke, cross fingers it doesn't escalate to wiping out the human race and, in the process, become the most universally hated pariah state on the planet.

Because the only thing everyone wants less than to start a nuclear war is for someone else to start a nuclear war, and thus everyone has to make sure it is a very, very bad idea to risk that.

Win or lose, Russia is going to come out of this conflict in a severely weakened and depleted state, with almost all of its European neighbors under some form of NATO umbrella and probably with some very serious internal political concerns that will need to be resolved. The potential for further European adventures is going to be quite limited.
 
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thestor

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So the question stands: What do we do to stop Russia that doesn't result in some very large and spicy mushrooms sprouting up all over the world?
Massive aid to Ukraine with heavy weapons.

Potentially volunteers, particularly pilots ala the Flying Tigers.

Other escalations the West could use to retaliate against anything Russia does:
- blockading the land connection of the Kaliiningrad enclave, like the Soviets did with Berlin. Maybe also block sea access for as along as the Russia blacks the Ukrainian ports.
- Attacking (or threatening to attack) Syria to oust their Assad-crony. If the Russia wants to help Assad, they will have to use assets that most likely could have been used against Ukraine.
 

Agema

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Potentially volunteers, particularly pilots ala the Flying Tigers.
And that's another reason the Russians gave those non-Ukrainians serving in the Ukrainian army the death penalty.

Even as they fill their own army with mercenaries (they've been heavily recruiting in Syria), they want to dissuade anyone else thinking to serve with Ukraine.
 
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Satinavian

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I mean, Russia has a nuclear doctrine, and it's actually a pretty sensible one. I don't think there's any reason to think they'll break the terms of that doctrine (especially over the Ukraine conflict which Russia doesn't even regard as a war) because if that was on the cards they'd absolutely want foreign governments to know about it so they can avoid crossing whatever the new lines are.
The problem with this is that Russia is not trustworthy at all. The other problem is, that as soon as it officially annexes the Donbass and the Cherson oblast (as they already prepared), they would claim the war is happening on Russian soil. That allows them to deploy conscripts without calling it a war and it also kinda allows them to use nukes and still claim they are only defending Russia proper and that this was an existential threat to Russias existence.

As for no one wanting a nuclear war, keep in mind that no one has agreed to retaliate in kind for Ukraines sake. There are a lot of people in Russia who do believe that they would be the only side using nuclear weapons.

However, doing so would of course cost them the friendship of China, their own population wouldn't like it either and there might be many other kinds of bad results. So hopefully they don't do it.
 
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Agema

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However, doing so would of course cost them the friendship of China, their own population wouldn't like it either and there might be many other kinds of bad results. So hopefully they don't do it.
I think firing nukes is just about the only thing Russia could do to cost itself the de facto support of China.

And without China, Russia is dead in the water sooner or later.
 
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Thaluikhain

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We already know a large proportion of Russian personnel are unwilling conscripts or mercenaries. But you have to wonder how much worse morale would be if servicemen knew that their military service also directly puts their loved ones in danger of extortion and intimidation by the state.
Well, holding one's family hostage against one's behaviour has a long history. Troops that hesitate might have their kids back home mentioned.

The problem with this is that Russia is not trustworthy at all. The other problem is, that as soon as it officially annexes the Donbass and the Cherson oblast (as they already prepared), they would claim the war is happening on Russian soil. That allows them to deploy conscripts without calling it a war and it also kinda allows them to use nukes and still claim they are only defending Russia proper and that this was an existential threat to Russias existence.

As for no one wanting a nuclear war, keep in mind that no one has agreed to retaliate in kind for Ukraines sake. There are a lot of people in Russia who do believe that they would be the only side using nuclear weapons.

However, doing so would of course cost them the friendship of China, their own population wouldn't like it either and there might be many other kinds of bad results. So hopefully they don't do it.
Not worth the risk. Sure, Russia might get away with it, but it's not worth risking everything to gain a little bit more.
 

Terminal Blue

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The problem with this is that Russia is not trustworthy at all. The other problem is, that as soon as it officially annexes the Donbass and the Cherson oblast (as they already prepared), they would claim the war is happening on Russian soil. That allows them to deploy conscripts without calling it a war and it also kinda allows them to use nukes and still claim they are only defending Russia proper and that this was an existential threat to Russias existence.
So, I'm pretty sure conscripts are already being used in Ukraine. The Russian government has claimed they were deployed there accidentally, which frankly raises more questions than it answers, but I doubt they've been pulled out. What the government seems to have been desperate to avoid is conscripts being in intense fighting and suffering large numbers of casualties, because that would become a domestic political nightmare. I don't think that situation is going to change regardless of what happens.

Russia's nuclear doctrine states that it may use nuclear weapons if ICBMs are launched towards targets in Russia, to defend itself against a conventional attack that threatens the survival of the Russian state itself, or which threatens the ability to launch nuclear weapons. Those are all pretty sensible use cases (to the degree any reason to use nuclear weapons can be sensible). There's some question about what would count as a threat to the survival of the Russian state, but I don't think it could reasonably apply to anything happening in Ukraine, and again, I think if the Russian government was seriously pushing the interpretation that it could, it would want everyone to know that was a serious possibility. We'd be seeing signs of greater alertness. Things like submarine deployments, or ICBM launch vehicles being readied.

As for no one wanting a nuclear war, keep in mind that no one has agreed to retaliate in kind for Ukraines sake. There are a lot of people in Russia who do believe that they would be the only side using nuclear weapons
And that is probably true. I doubt any other nuclear power would be willing to start a war that would existentially threaten human civilization over a limited use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Hypothetically, it could absolutely happen, and if it didn't there would probably be some kind of ultimatum not to do it again, but I would personally doubt it because everyone kind of understands that nuclear escalation is a terrible idea. We know how close it came to disaster during the cold war, when nuclear doctrines were truly insane and terrifying.

There doesn't need to be the possibility of immediate nuclear retaliation for using nuclear weapons to be an incredibly bad idea. It might mean going from harsh sanctions from a few relatively wealthy countries to most of the world agreeing to a complete embargo on trade with Russia, for example. It might mean the US or other NATO allies deciding to risk limited engagement to try and destroy Russia's tactical nuclear capability in Ukraine and ensure the decision to use it isn't militarily rewarding. The world as a whole has a huge interest in making the decision to deploy nuclear weapons extremely punishing. Noone wants to go back to the world immediately after world war 2 where the only way to ensure you aren't hit with nuclear weapons is to have them yourself.

Besides, what would Russian nukes actually do in Ukraine? What would you drop them on? Do you drop them on cities and kill millions of people while economically destroying the region you're fighting for? Do you just drop them on the front line so that your own troops can advance a few miles through a now dangerous and contaminated region with completely destroyed infrastructure? Do you drop them on uninhabited wilderness just to show how super serious you are? None of the potential benefits seem worth the risks.
 
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Agema

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Besides, what would Russian nukes actually do in Ukraine? What would you drop them on? Do you drop them on cities and kill millions of people while economically destroying the region you're fighting for?
If Russia takes the decision that it the eastern part of Ukraine is enough, then I guess Kyiv, Lviv and Odesa are all options.

But I don't think Russia is going to use nukes, even if it makes a loud noise about it in the hope of scaring the Western public in favour of letting it take chunks of Ukraine.
 
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bluegate

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The West should just call Putin's bluff and actively kick out Russians from Ukrainian territory.

Putin isn't going to use nukes and he knows full well how the West is currently helping Ukraine.
 

Agema

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The West should just call Putin's bluff and actively kick out Russians from Ukrainian territory.
That's kind of tricky for several reasons.

Firstly, NATO has a responsibility to not engage in that sort of escalatory activity. Individual countries within NATO can do things independently, but even then they should be inclined to consistency with NATO principles. Secondly, it risks playing right into the hands of Russian propaganda about NATO/Western imperialism and aggression, with wider context that much of the world is ambivalent or even pro-Russian in terms of the invasion. Thirdly, looking fowards to the future, there is still a desire to bring Russia into a rules-based framework with mutual tolerance or amity. Entering open conflict will make any such moves vastly harder.
 

Silvanus

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Firstly, NATO has a responsibility to not engage in that sort of escalatory activity. Individual countries within NATO can do things independently, but even then they should be inclined to consistency with NATO principles. Secondly, it risks playing right into the hands of Russian propaganda about NATO/Western imperialism and aggression, with wider context that much of the world is ambivalent or even pro-Russian in terms of the invasion. Thirdly, looking fowards to the future, there is still a desire to bring Russia into a rules-based framework with mutual tolerance or amity. Entering open conflict will make any such moves vastly harder.
Bolding mine. As far as I can see, this has been the most sensible option from the start, in the form of mutual defence pacts between Eastern European countries, outside of the NATO umbrella.

Wholesale NATO military involvement in a non-NATO country such as Ukraine risks catastrophic escalation, as well as feeding into Putin's fearmongering about NATO expansion in the region as a threat to Russia's borders. But NATO does not proscribe its members forming their own, separate foreign policy objectives.

And it's clearly untenable for Ukraine to continue without any formal protection from outside. They exist right on a doorstep of an imperial power, far stronger than they are, that explicitly wishes to wipe them from the map. If they continue with no protection, then future invasion and annexation by Russia is inevitable, regardless of any concessions they were to make.

They cannot rely on pacts with Russia, because Russia breaks every pact it makes. They cannot form pacts with NATO because of the risk of nuclear escalation. But they need protection from invasion. The remaining option is to pursue separate, explicitly defensive treaties with other countries in the same region which have mutual fears, such as Poland, Moldova, Estonia and Latvia; others that would be clearly threatened by Russian expansion. Several of which Russia has also threatened in the recent past.

After the current war, Ukraine cannot continue to safely exist without some kind of safeguard against Russian invasion. It's not tenable any more.
 

Hades

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I've recently been reading ''Sleepwalkers'' the critically acclaimed tome detailing the leadup to WW1

The zealous Serbian nationalism that helped push the world into World War 1 came across as eerily familiar. Serbia was fanatically obsessed with the idea of a ''greater Serbia'' that would include lands well beyond their borders, based on mythical and historical claims, and with a complete disregard for national and ethnic borders, and a strong belief that the majority non Serbians living in ''greater Serbia'' should be subjugated and not be granted any rights in Serbia's great empire.

It sounds very familiar to Russia obsessing over a greater Russia based on 18th claims of Imperialism and a complete, callous disregard towards any citizens living in the eastern European nations that Russia desires to create their greater Russia.
 

Thaluikhain

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I've recently been reading ''Sleepwalkers'' the critically acclaimed tome detailing the leadup to WW1

The zealous Serbian nationalism that helped push the world into World War 1 came across as eerily familiar. Serbia was fanatically obsessed with the idea of a ''greater Serbia'' that would include lands well beyond their borders, based on mythical and historical claims, and with a complete disregard for national and ethnic borders, and a strong belief that the majority non Serbians living in ''greater Serbia'' should be subjugated and not be granted any rights in Serbia's great empire.

It sounds very familiar to Russia obsessing over a greater Russia based on 18th claims of Imperialism and a complete, callous disregard towards any citizens living in the eastern European nations that Russia desires to create their greater Russia.
Not uncommon, look at the Axis powers in WW2 as well.
 
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Hades

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Not uncommon, look at the Axis powers in WW2 as well.
I don't think its quite the same. Germany thought that everything between Germany and Russia should be German but they didn't think those regions have always secretly been German. Just like Japan thought it should be Japanese, but not that it had always been Japanese.