Ukraine

[Terminal Blue]

I don't think its quite the same. Germany thought that everything between Germany and Russia should be German but they didn't think those regions have always secretly been German. Just like Japan thought it should be Japanese, but not that it had always been Japanese.

Nazi ideology was often the product of disparate race scientists who didn't always agree with each other, but the idea of a semi-mythological history in which a flourishing Germanic society stretched across most of eastern Europe was a fairly common feature. It's also, to some degree, based in reality. Early Germanic people were nomadic, and they spread across much of what is now eastern Europe (not as the racially pure conquerors imagined by the Nazis but as travelers who shared land and adopted cultural elements from non-Germanic people they encountered).

There were definitely attempts to ground the idea of "greater Germany" in prehistory. The Nazis were kind of infamous for declaring that anything technically impressive in the historical record, like the pyramids, must have been the work of ancient Aryans. Heck, there was a consistent attempt to claim that Shakespeare had German blood and that his plays exhibited his intrinsic Nordic values, so making up a historical basis for the conquest of eastern Europe wasn't too big a deal.

In a more immediate sense, the end of world war 1 had seen Germany become quite a bit smaller, and Austria-Hungary break up completely. Both had left significant German populations who now lived within the borders of countries with non-German majorities. The existence of these populations was used as justification for Nazi aggression, much as the Russian-speaking population in eastern Ukraine is being used now.

Heck, many regions of the former Russian empire, like Ukraine, Crimea, Kazakhstan and Russia itself still have ethnic German populations whose ancestors were invited to settle in what was then Russia at the turn of the 19th century. Germans are actually a pretty significant ethnic minority in Russia, although the majority don't speak German any more. There are also communities of Russian speaking Germans living in Germany who mostly moved back there after the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Terminal Blue is correct, of course, though I'd also add that Germany was able to swallow up a few other nations without it being a cause for war before WW2, as the justification of "they are really German, really" was enough for a Europe not fully recovered from the last war to not want the next one (for which Chamberlain is forever blamed). There were also lots of people who wanted to be part of the new Reich.

I also think that there was a hope that Germany wouldn't have to fight "fellow Aryan" nations like the UK, and just concentrate on Slavs, though how much that was a thing and how much that was lipservice to their weird belief system I can't say.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Terminal Blue is correct, of course, though I'd also add that Germany was able to swallow up a few other nations without it being a cause for war before WW2, as the justification of "they are really German, really" was enough for a Europe not fully recovered from the last war to not want the next one (for which Chamberlain is forever blamed). There were also lots of people who wanted to be part of the new Reich.

Yeah, I think there was a prevailing unwillingness to assert the sovereignty of nations which had been created through the treaty of Versailles. The German line was always that Czechslovakia, Poland and so forth were "artificial nations" which were created by mistake, and I think to an extent that line was easy to buy for people who could remember a time when those nations didn't exist.

Britain and France were, at the time, the biggest colonial powers in the world. The idea of national self-determination was important in American foreign policy (despite its own "empire" in the Pacific) but I don't think it held the same weight in Europe.

To tie this loosely back to the topic.

I think the most incredible parallel, if true, is the claim by Poland's former foreign minister that Vladimir Zhirinovsky, then speaker of Russia's parliament, made an offer to partition Ukraine with Poland.

You can doubt it (the source has acknowledged it was somewhat overstated) but fact that it is entirely believable is symptomatic of the fundamental ideological differences between Russia and the rest of Europe. Poland, as it turns out, is not hanging on to the idea of creating a "greater Poland" by seizing lands once held by the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth. Russia is very clearly hanging onto the idea of a Greater Russia, and to an age when European states sought to expand their influence through expanding territory. That's honestly a bit sad.

 

[Silvanus]

Another mass grave found in Kyiv region

Another mass grave of civilians has been discovered in the Bucha district, Kyiv region. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Another mass grave discovered in Kyiv oblast. Once again, civilians found dead with their hands tied and showing signs of torture.

 

[Agema]

The German line was always that Czechslovakia, Poland and so forth were "artificial nations" which were created by mistake,

That's an interesting claim, given that despite a century or so of occupation, Poland had existed as an independent state back in 1000 AD or so. Which of course also means it had considerably more heritage as a nation than Germany.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Another mass grave found in Kyiv region

Another mass grave of civilians has been discovered in the Bucha district, Kyiv region. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Another mass grave discovered in Kyiv oblast. Once again, civilians found dead with their hands tied and showing signs of torture.

Can't wait to hear how they tied their own hands together and then tortured themselves to death just to make Russia look bad.

 

[Dalisclock]

Can't wait to hear how they tied their own hands together and then tortured themselves to death just to make Russia look bad.

Don't worry. We'll be hearing soon enough how this is all NATOs/the USs fault because reasons once the Kremlin POV weighs in.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Can't wait to hear how they tied their own hands together and then tortured themselves to death just to make Russia look bad.

Look, you can't blame every BDSM party mishap on Russia...

 

[Thaluikhain]

I originally meant more than just Germany when I said Axis, and now that I think of it some more, Italy is probably the better parallel, in that their military proved to be totally incapable of conquering much territory, due to terrible morale and corruption, though they were back up by more efficient German troops.

 

[Agema]

I originally meant more than just Germany when I said Axis, and now that I think of it some more, Italy is probably the better parallel, in that their military proved to be totally incapable of conquering much territory, due to terrible morale and corruption, though they were back up by more efficient German troops.

That's perhaps a bit of a myth. Italian professional soldiers were decently trained (although they also had some dodgy militia) and there's no particular evidence they had worse morale - at least at an individual level. The troops of their best units, the Bersaglieri and Alpini, were particularly well regarded.

They did however tend to have poor equipment - in virtually all areas Italian arms and vehicles were inferior to their peers. Italy generally lacked the heavy industrial capacity and engineering expertise suitable for a sustained mass industrial war in WW2, which severely hampered them. Italian troops were also badly led as they tended to promote on seniority rather than talent, and tactically they were pretty hopeless.

 

[Silvanus]

That's perhaps a bit of a myth. Italian professional soldiers were decently trained (although they also had some dodgy militia) and there's no particular evidence they had worse morale - at least at an individual level. The troops of their best units, the Bersaglieri and Alpini, were particularly well regarded.

They did however tend to have poor equipment - in virtually all areas Italian arms and vehicles were inferior to their peers. Italy generally lacked the heavy industrial capacity and engineering expertise suitable for a sustained mass industrial war in WW2, which severely hampered them. Italian troops were also badly led as they tended to promote on seniority rather than talent, and tactically they were pretty hopeless.

When i was studying Italian fascism, it came up that Mussolini often promoted incompetent people into high official positions as a method of maintaining personal control; such people were less likely to have their own agendas or criticisms, were more likely to just carry out what he wanted rather than gainsaying. Of course it also meant that the people in charge of those areas were incompetent.

You have to wonder if this "management" style sometimes extended to military appointments.

 

[Agema]

When i was studying Italian fascism, it came up that Mussolini often promoted incompetent people into high official positions as a method of maintaining personal control; such people were less likely to have their own agendas or criticisms, were more likely to just carry out what he wanted rather than gainsaying. Of course it also meant that the people in charge of those areas were incompetent.

You have to wonder if this "management" style sometimes extended to military appointments.

At the top, it's very likely. Stalin of course did the same with the Red Army in the 30s, and the catastrophic Soviet performance in 41-42 resulted.

However, my reading is that this was not just cronyism at the top, but a systemic problem with the whole Italian army that long predated Mussolini. I think some Italian generals, and even Il Duce himself, were well aware that the army had some major shortcomings. However, the opportunity to piggy-back off German successes and pressure to emulate them was too strong a lure.

The Italian navy was pretty decent, mind.

 

[Gergar12]

This could actually happen. If Russia breaks apart, the world's biggest nuclear weapons power could fall into the hands of a terror organization.

 

[CM156]

This could actually happen. If Russia breaks apart, the world's biggest nuclear weapons power could fall into the hands of a terror organization.

I don't think Russia will fall apart.
Tempting as that might be to entertain as a possibility.

 

[Hades]

This could actually happen. If Russia breaks apart, the world's biggest nuclear weapons power could fall into the hands of a terror organization.

And if it doesn't break apart they're also going to be in the hands of a terror organisation: the Kremlin.

 

[Piscian]

This could actually happen. If Russia breaks apart, the world's biggest nuclear weapons power could fall into the hands of a terror organization.

I'm gonna hold my breath starting....now.

 

[Terminal Blue]

That's an interesting claim, given that despite a century or so of occupation, Poland had existed as an independent state back in 1000 AD or so. Which of course also means it had considerably more heritage as a nation than Germany.

Oddly, I think that's kind of part of it.

Both Italy and Germany were unified during the 19th century due to the emergence of strong nationalist movements, who had built up the idea of unification into this kind of spiritual project. German nationalism in particular had been very deeply grounded in romanticism and the idea of the German people as intrinsically connected to the land and to nature, but after unification Germans still found themselves living in dirty cities and working in factories for low wages on behalf of other Germans who, rather than being united with them as brothers, were separated from them by class interests. It's that particular sense of thwarted, insecure nationalism that I think made these countries so susceptible.

Like many German nationalists, the Nazis seem to have mostly ignored medieval history as a bit of an embarrassment, with the exception of a few carefully picked examples (most notably the Teutonic order). Their sense of German history was heavily based in this idea of ancient noble savages living a clean, simple existence close to nature and untainted by the decadence of civilization. Tacitus' Germania was incredibly important to the Nazis, for example.

 

[Agema]

Oddly, I think that's kind of part of it.

Both Italy and Germany were unified during the 19th century due to the emergence of strong nationalist movements, who had built up the idea of unification into this kind of spiritual project. German nationalism in particular had been very deeply grounded in romanticism and the idea of the German people as intrinsically connected to the land and to nature, but after unification Germans still found themselves living in dirty cities and working in factories for low wages on behalf of other Germans who, rather than being united with them as brothers, were separated from them by class interests. It's that particular sense of thwarted, insecure nationalism that I think made these countries so susceptible.

Like many German nationalists, the Nazis seem to have mostly ignored medieval history as a bit of an embarrassment, with the exception of a few carefully picked examples (most notably the Teutonic order). Their sense of German history was heavily based in this idea of ancient noble savages living a clean, simple existence close to nature and untainted by the decadence of civilization. Tacitus' Germania was incredibly important to the Nazis, for example.

One of our family friends was a professor of history in Germany. His theory was that German aggression in the 19th-20th centuries was rooted in an inferiority complex: that the diffusion of the German nation across myriad statelets due to the Holy Roman Empire meant that their nobility was looked down on, and that they tended to be kicked around by other European powers. Once unified, it left a country and ruling class intent on showing everyone else that now they were boss.

The medieval era is in this idea embarrassing for Germany: it's about a load of small, mostly ineffectual states being told what to do and being treated as a battleground to be fought over by the likes of major powers such as France, Spain, Russia, etc. It might be no surprise that the Nazis would reach back further into myth.

 

[Agema]

I don't think Russia will fall apart.
Tempting as that might be to entertain as a possibility.

Neither do I.

I think Russia is actually quite highly homogenous with high ethnic Russian majorities outside maybe some small Caucasian states, and it's hard to envisage them wanting to be independent. Plus, all the ones far from the western Russian core are, I think, far too weak and underdeveloped to seriously contemplate or maintain independence were it challenged by whoever took over the core: consider that the entire eastern geographical third of Russia has a population lower than New York City.

 

[Silvanus]

‘It was worse than hell’: life in Mariupol under Russian occupation

Around 90,000 Ukrainians remain in the city with little access to electricity, phone, internet, water or healthcare

www.theguardian.com

Reports (and some survivor testimony) from Mariupol, now fully under Russian control.

* A month after it was taken, gas, electricity and even water are not accessible in large areas of the city.

* Bodies lie in the streets.

* Despite not restoring basic utilities or access to water, Russia has found the resources to mount screens onto vans and have them driven around the city broadcasting Russian state TV.

* Russian authorities have been refusing to provide benefits to Ukrainians unless they hand in their Ukrainian passports and trade them for Russian ones.