Ukraine

[Trunkage]

Do you disagree with Obama being a doormat for Putin.

No more than Bush, Trump, Clinton or Reagan. It's been the foreign policy to just let Russia go fascist and not do much about them. And I just want to be clear - that was the goal.

Edit: I just find it incredibly stupid that the people who have never had control of any of these government are seen DEFINITELY at fault here. Not the actual people doing the action

 

[Silvanus]

Edit: I just find it incredibly stupid that the people who have never had control of any of these government are seen DEFINITELY at fault here. Not the actual people doing the action

Of course. The most fundamentally imperialist attitude one can have is to consider a country not an entity in its own right, with its own self-detrtmination, but a geopolitical tool for larger powers.

 

[Seanchaidh]

diplomatically resolving this situation where we have thirty people pointing rifles at some guy would be a terrible encroachment on the self-determination of the riflemen.

 

[Silvanus]

diplomatically resolving this situation where we have thirty people pointing rifles at some guy would be a terrible encroachment on the self-determination of the riflemen.

- Some guy stabs some other guy
- Second guy asks to join the riflemen, who manage to not get stabbed all the time
- First guy sees this as a threat and thus stabs him again.
- "I am the true victim here", he says, even as he's mid-stab and the riflemen haven't shot him anyway

 

[Generals]

diplomatically resolving this situation where we have thirty people pointing rifles at some guy would be a terrible encroachment on the self-determination of the riflemen.

I am confused, is this a jab at Russia? Because they are clearly the ones pointing rifles at Ukraine which is being pressured to "diplomatically resolve" this situation.

 

[Silvanus]

I am confused, is this a jab at Russia? Because they are clearly the ones pointing rifles at Ukraine which is being pressured to "diplomatically resolve" this situation.

Nah. Riflemen are Nato. Russia is the guy. Ukraine doesn't even factor into the analogy here, because their wellbeing isn't terribly important to him, except insofar as they can serve Russia's interest.

 

[Seanchaidh]

- Some guy stabs some other guy
- Second guy asks to join the riflemen, who manage to not get stabbed all the time
- First guy sees this as a threat and thus stabs him again.
- "I am the true victim here", he says, even as he's mid-stab and the riflemen haven't shot him anyway

Oh, how to fix this?

- Some guy puts down knife while 16 riflemen point their weapons at him. A crowd is watching.
- The riflemen lower their weapons. "We're all friends now."
- The guy continues to not pick up the knife he dropped, but asks the riflemen to keep their distance.
- Some years pass, then the 16 riflemen start talking about handing some more rifles out to the crowd.
- They do. Now it's 19 riflemen.
- The guy who dropped the knife is angry. "What the hell are you doing that for?"
- The riflemen hand out some more rifles to some people who are standing closer.
- The guy who dropped the knife says, "seriously, why are you doing that? Could we talk about this?"
- The riflemen hand three more rifles to men standing next to the guy who dropped the knife. They also raise their weapons: all the riflemen are pointing their loaded rifles at the guy who dropped the knife.
- The guy who dropped the knife asks if he can have a rifle too; he'll shoot whoever the riflemen shoot.
- The riflemen tell him no.
- The man, obviously done with this shit, picks up the knife again. "Could you at least stop handing out rifles to point at me?"
- The riflemen reiterate that if he stabs anyone who has a rifle, they'll all shoot!
- The riflemen then start unpacking another rifle, asking two more guys standing near the guy who dropped the knife if they'd like rifles too.
- The guy who dropped the knife stabs one of the guys they were talking to
- The riflemen frown. There are thirty of them now.
- The second guy who they were offering a rifle to asks to join the riflemen for some reason in this surreal horror, though he seemed conflicted about it not too long ago.
- First guy sees this as a threat and thus stabs the second guy. "STOP HANDING OUT RIFLES! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!"
- The riflemen unpack another rifle. A few of them say they want to give it to the guy who was just stabbed, but they don't reach a consensus. The guy who was stabbed isn't very important to them.
- Some years pass. The guy who was stabbed has been poking the guy with a knife. He's also been asking for a rifle the entire time.
- The guy with a knife stabs him again.
- "This is precisely what we didn't want to happen," say the riflemen. "We need to hand out more rifles!"

 

[Kwak]

Oh, how to fix this?

- Some guy puts down knife while 16 riflemen point their weapons at him. A crowd is watching.
- The riflemen lower their weapons. "We're all friends now."
- The guy continues to not pick up the knife he dropped, but asks the riflemen to keep their distance.
- Some years pass, then the 16 riflemen start talking about handing some more rifles out to the crowd.
- They do. Now it's 19 riflemen.
- The guy who dropped the knife is angry. "What the hell are you doing that for?"
- The riflemen hand out some more rifles to some people who are standing closer.
- The guy who dropped the knife says, "seriously, why are you doing that? Could we talk about this?"
- The riflemen hand three more rifles to men standing next to the guy who dropped the knife. They also raise their weapons: all the riflemen are pointing their loaded rifles at the guy who dropped the knife.
- The guy who dropped the knife asks if he can have a rifle too; he'll shoot whoever the riflemen shoot.
- The riflemen tell him no.
- The man, obviously done with this shit, picks up the knife again. "Could you at least stop handing out rifles to point at me?"
- The riflemen reiterate that if he stabs anyone who has a rifle, they'll all shoot!
- The riflemen then start unpacking another rifle, asking two more guys standing near the guy who dropped the knife if they'd like rifles too.
- The guy who dropped the knife stabs one of the guys they were talking to
- The riflemen frown. There are thirty of them now.
- The second guy who they were offering a rifle to asks to join the riflemen for some reason in this surreal horror, though he seemed conflicted about it not too long ago.
- First guy sees this as a threat and thus stabs the second guy. "STOP HANDING OUT RIFLES! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!"
- The riflemen unpack another rifle. A few of them say they want to give it to the guy who was just stabbed, but they don't reach a consensus. The guy who was stabbed isn't very important to them.
- Some years pass. The guy who was stabbed has been poking the guy with a knife. He's also been asking for a rifle the entire time.
- The guy with a knife stabs him again.
- "This is precisely what we didn't want to happen," say the riflemen. "We need to hand out more rifles!"

You're insane.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You're insane.

If it makes you feel better to think that.

 

[Agema]

NATO was literally formed as a military alliance for the specific purpose of countering Soviet expansionism, and when the Cold War ended it was not terminated, but rather its mission extended. No kidding, he views NATO as a threat, because it still is. Do you think the United States would feel differently if the Mexican government was overthrown and a Russian-friendly government installed, and in the span of five years was considering entry into CSTO.

The NATO charter does not specify the USSR (although it was clearly a key reason behind NATO's formation), and the organisation is valid even without a clear external threat as a statement of peaceful co-operation, political stability and mutual economic development.

Although the USSR dissolved, Russia retained a huge military capability, plus military alliance with the states that had splintered off. Since the USSR collapsed, Russia's military budget has constantly been above 3% GDP, whereas in the rest of Europe 2% is the high end and most are substantially below. Nor has Russia shown a lack of willingness to use that military, whether against its own unhappy regions or sovereign countries.

And this doesn't even attempt to address the fact that Ukraine's willingness to join NATO has been principally driven by Russian aggression against it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

You're insane.

Mental illness shouldn't be the jump to explanation for someone being obviously and obstinately wrong.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Since the USSR collapsed, Russia's military budget has constantly been above 3% GDP, whereas in the rest of Europe 2% is the high end and most are substantially below

It has a GDP that is less than half that of Germany's.

 

[Breakdown]

Oh, how to fix this?

- Some guy puts down knife while 16 riflemen point their weapons at him. A crowd is watching.
- The riflemen lower their weapons. "We're all friends now."
- The guy continues to not pick up the knife he dropped, but asks the riflemen to keep their distance.
- Some years pass, then the 16 riflemen start talking about handing some more rifles out to the crowd.
- They do. Now it's 19 riflemen.
- The guy who dropped the knife is angry. "What the hell are you doing that for?"
- The riflemen hand out some more rifles to some people who are standing closer.
- The guy who dropped the knife says, "seriously, why are you doing that? Could we talk about this?"
- The riflemen hand three more rifles to men standing next to the guy who dropped the knife. They also raise their weapons: all the riflemen are pointing their loaded rifles at the guy who dropped the knife.
- The guy who dropped the knife asks if he can have a rifle too; he'll shoot whoever the riflemen shoot.
- The riflemen tell him no.
- The man, obviously done with this shit, picks up the knife again. "Could you at least stop handing out rifles to point at me?"
- The riflemen reiterate that if he stabs anyone who has a rifle, they'll all shoot!
- The riflemen then start unpacking another rifle, asking two more guys standing near the guy who dropped the knife if they'd like rifles too.
- The guy who dropped the knife stabs one of the guys they were talking to
- The riflemen frown. There are thirty of them now.
- The second guy who they were offering a rifle to asks to join the riflemen for some reason in this surreal horror, though he seemed conflicted about it not too long ago.
- First guy sees this as a threat and thus stabs the second guy. "STOP HANDING OUT RIFLES! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!"
- The riflemen unpack another rifle. A few of them say they want to give it to the guy who was just stabbed, but they don't reach a consensus. The guy who was stabbed isn't very important to them.
- Some years pass. The guy who was stabbed has been poking the guy with a knife. He's also been asking for a rifle the entire time.
- The guy with a knife stabs him again.
- "This is precisely what we didn't want to happen," say the riflemen. "We need to hand out more rifles!"

So in your analogy the sympathetic party is the guy who keeps stabbing unarmed people?

 

[Seanchaidh]

So in your analogy the sympathetic party is the guy who keeps stabbing unarmed people?

Should it be the people who refuse to consider approaching a problem with anything other than rifles?

 

[Thaluikhain]

So in your analogy the sympathetic party is the guy who keeps stabbing unarmed people?

The guy from the glorious motherland stabbing unarmed running dogs of Washington.

 

[Silvanus]

Snip

Amazing. Even in your own analogy, Russia is the only one stabbing people who are unarmed and didn't attack it.

If I lived next door to the mad stabber, I'd damn well want a rifle if it was the only way to stop being stabbed every few years.

Should it be the people who refuse to consider approaching a problem with anything other than rifles?

It should probably be the people who were stabbed. By Russia. I understand that they don't factor into your calculus much.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Amazing. Even in your own analogy, Russia is the only one stabbing people who are unarmed and didn't threaten or attack it.

Thirty men pointing a rifle at you isn't a threat? Announcing an intention to join that group isn't a threat?

 

[Silvanus]

Thirty men pointing a rifle at you isn't a threat? Announcing an intention to join that group isn't a threat?

If they've literally never been used to invade me, and they have no realistic intention to do so, then I don't think they can be described as "pointed at me".

Except in a defensive, "get away from me with that blood-drenched knife" sort of way, after the stabbings started.

 

[Avnger]

Should it be the people who refuse to consider approaching a problem with anything other than rifles?

He says in defense of Russia invading Ukraine (again) to enforce Russia's will through military force rather than diplomacy....

 

[Seanchaidh]

He says in defense of Russia invading Ukraine (again) to enforce Russia's will through military force rather than diplomacy....

After decades of NATO meeting Russia's concerns about NATO's intentions and Russia's security with intransigent silence diplomatically and demonization domestically.