Ukraine

Nielas

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Yeah, I think there was a prevailing unwillingness to assert the sovereignty of nations which had been created through the treaty of Versailles. The German line was always that Czechslovakia, Poland and so forth were "artificial nations" which were created by mistake, and I think to an extent that line was easy to buy for people who could remember a time when those nations didn't exist.

Britain and France were, at the time, the biggest colonial powers in the world. The idea of national self-determination was important in American foreign policy (despite its own "empire" in the Pacific) but I don't think it held the same weight in Europe.

To tie this loosely back to the topic.

I think the most incredible parallel, if true, is the claim by Poland's former foreign minister that Vladimir Zhirinovsky, then speaker of Russia's parliament, made an offer to partition Ukraine with Poland.

You can doubt it (the source has acknowledged it was somewhat overstated) but fact that it is entirely believable is symptomatic of the fundamental ideological differences between Russia and the rest of Europe. Poland, as it turns out, is not hanging on to the idea of creating a "greater Poland" by seizing lands once held by the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth. Russia is very clearly hanging onto the idea of a Greater Russia, and to an age when European states sought to expand their influence through expanding territory. That's honestly a bit sad.
After World War I, right after Poland regained its independence, there was a strong movement to restore a "greater Poland" similar to the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Pilsudski was a believer in this idea. It quickly ran into the problem that the Lithuanian;s and Ukrainians saw that it would mean political dominance by the Polish majority and instead chose to form their own nations. There was a lot of horrible violence and massacres and Poland created a lot of bad blood with its neighbors.

On the western border there was the issue of large German populations living territories that Poland wanted. There were uprisings, battles, foreign mandated plebiscites and in the end Germany got a bit screwed. Areas that under self determination should have gone to Germany went to Poland because the new nation needed them for political, military and/or economic reasons. Interwar Poland was a mess and the nation accumulated a lot of bad karma. It's just that no nation "deserves" what Hitler's Germany ended up doing to Poland during World War II.

In the present time there is a very pragmatic reason why Poland would never want to taken any part of Ukraine. Poland already has a lot of poor, underdeveloped areas and really does not need new land that has been depleted by war and would require massive investment to become economically profitable. If Ukraine survives this war, Poland will have a market for its goods and Polish companies will profit greatly helping to rebuild the country.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Terminal Blue

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Fake.

It's a conflation of two unrelated facts.

Firstly, the Ukrainian government banned the import of some books printed in Russia back in in 2016 as an anti-information-warfare measure. This isn't entirely uncontroversial and includes some questionable choices, but primarily concerns political texts by Russian nationalists.

Secondly, Ukraine changed its school curriculum earlier this year, removing many Russian books from the curriculum. What's especially funny is that Russian state media reported this accurately, but apparently American simps don't actually check Russian state media and instead made up their own story about War and Peace being banned in Ukraine.
 

Silvanus

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Fake.

It's a conflation of two unrelated facts.

Firstly, the Ukrainian government banned the import of some books printed in Russia back in in 2016 as an anti-information-warfare measure. This isn't entirely uncontroversial and includes some questionable choices, but primarily concerns political texts by Russian nationalists.

Secondly, Ukraine changed its school curriculum earlier this year, removing many Russian books from the curriculum. What's especially funny is that Russian state media reported this accurately, but apparently American simps don't actually check Russian state media and instead made up their own story about War and Peace being banned in Ukraine.
Actually no. The interview with Oleksandra Koval, which this article is based on, did indeed take place and is reported on Interfax here;


I did find an official English translation yesterday but can't seem to find it today. But the basic fact-- Koval's intention to remove 100 million copies of Russian books-- is indeed in the original.

Of course, it's a little stupid for war apologists like the WSWS to bring this up, since Russia bans far more literature in all territory it controls. So access to literature is still best served by Russia fucking off.
 
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Hawki

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Hawki

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I don't know why they're banning books when they can just wait for Putin to shell a library full of kids.
Pens are mightier than artillery shells.

Whether they're mightier than artillery shells remains to be seen.
 

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“We didn’t invade Ukraine,” he claimed. “We declared a special military operation because we had absolutely no other way of explaining to the west that dragging Ukraine into Nato was a criminal act.”
Besides which.... it literally isn't a criminal act. Its not against international law, and Russia has zero legal jurisdiction over what Ukraine does.

Russia, on the other hand, has broken international law about 200 different ways this year.
 
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Terminal Blue

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Actually no. The interview with Oleksandra Koval, which this article is based on, did indeed take place and is reported on Interfax here;
So.. it's not even a ban. It's about library stocks..

The idea that this is "without precedent" just shows the complete insulation from the actual history of anti-Imperialism.

Also, maximum irony from the fact all her recommended reading in response to the final question is people whose works actually were banned in the Soviet Union.
 
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Terminal Blue

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While I can't get past the paywall. That is an incredibly spicy take.

To know whether Russia is winning the war in Ukraine (never mind that, from the Russian perspective, it's not a war) we need to know what the strategic and operational objectives are, and we don't, but we can infer them from the words and actions of Russian government officials. If the war was an attempt to halt NATO expansion, then it has already catastrophically failed. If the war was an attempt to sow division and tension within NATO, it has also failed. If the objective was to quickly seize the centre of government in Kyiv and install a puppet regime before Western sanctions could be organized, as it seemed in the early days, it has failed. If the intention was to assert Russia's strength on the global stage, it has failed. If the intention was to intimidate the governments of eastern Europe, it has failed.

There have been multiple cases in this conflict of people, who for one reason or another want to present Russia as a serious threat and global superpower, simply changing the strategic and operational objectives to match what already seems to be happening as if it was all planned as part of some 4D chess master plan. This operation was so unplanned that units had to abandon their tanks because their commanders had sold all the fuel. The chess being played here is decidedly 1D. And yeah, you can win at 1D chess but it's not a very sophisticated game.

Whether the operation succeeds or fails, Russia's strategic position does appear to be catastrophically worse than it was before, and I don't think fishing for the silver lining is going to change that.
 
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Silvanus

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To know whether Russia is winning the war in Ukraine (never mind that, from the Russian perspective, it's not a war) we need to know what the strategic and operational objectives are, and we don't, but we can infer them from the words and actions of Russian government officials. If the war was an attempt to halt NATO expansion, then it has already catastrophically failed. If the war was an attempt to sow division and tension within NATO, it has also failed. If the objective was to quickly seize the centre of government in Kyiv and install a puppet regime before Western sanctions could be organized, as it seemed in the early days, it has failed. If the intention was to assert Russia's strength on the global stage, it has failed. If the intention was to intimidate the governments of eastern Europe, it has failed.
If the intention was to seize the territory of Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea, it looks perilously close to succeeding.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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If the intention was to seize the territory of Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea, it looks perilously close to succeeding.
Some people are saying that they never plan to capture Kyiv, I call bullshit to that. Everything we have seen they expected to win in three days. The plan was to make Ukraine a puppet By overthrowing the government, that failed. Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea is Plan B and nothing convinced me otherwise.
 

Lykosia

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Some people are saying that they never plan to capture Kyiv, I call bullshit to that. Everything we have seen they expected to win in three days. The plan was to make Ukraine a puppet By overthrowing the government, that failed. Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea is Plan B and nothing convinced me otherwise.
It's still a victory. Ukraine is forced to give land. Same thing happened in the Winter War. Soviets original plan was to conquer Finland in couple of weeks, that didn't happen but they still forced Finland to sign a humiliating peace treaty and give up land. Which then led to the Continuation war and more humiliating treaty and more land lost.
 

Hades

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It's still a victory. Ukraine is forced to give land. Same thing happened in the Winter War. Soviets original plan was to conquer Finland in couple of weeks, that didn't happen but they still forced Finland to sign a humiliating peace treaty and give up land. Which then led to the Continuation war and more humiliating treaty and more land lost.
I'm not sure. If you desire an entire country and all you get is two meager oblasts that you already controlled anyway then that sounds more like a failure. Especially when weighed up to things like the crippled economy or the Russian military being exposed as a complete paper tiger.
 
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Silvanus

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Some people are saying that they never plan to capture Kyiv, I call bullshit to that. Everything we have seen they expected to win in three days. The plan was to make Ukraine a puppet By overthrowing the government, that failed. Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea is Plan B and nothing convinced me otherwise.
Yeah, that's true; we have plentiful evidence that they intended to overthrow the government in Kyiv. That was attested by Russian soldiers themselves and Russian media.

But the capture of Donetsk, Luhansk, and a southern corridor would still represent a major gain for Russia... and provide incentive for future invasions.
 
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Gergar12

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While I can't get past the paywall. That is an incredibly spicy take.

To know whether Russia is winning the war in Ukraine (never mind that, from the Russian perspective, it's not a war) we need to know what the strategic and operational objectives are, and we don't, but we can infer them from the words and actions of Russian government officials. If the war was an attempt to halt NATO expansion, then it has already catastrophically failed. If the war was an attempt to sow division and tension within NATO, it has also failed. If the objective was to quickly seize the centre of government in Kyiv and install a puppet regime before Western sanctions could be organized, as it seemed in the early days, it has failed. If the intention was to assert Russia's strength on the global stage, it has failed. If the intention was to intimidate the governments of eastern Europe, it has failed.

There have been multiple cases in this conflict of people, who for one reason or another want to present Russia as a serious threat and global superpower, simply changing the strategic and operational objectives to match what already seems to be happening as if it was all planned as part of some 4D chess master plan. This operation was so unplanned that units had to abandon their tanks because their commanders had sold all the fuel. The chess being played here is decidedly 1D. And yeah, you can win at 1D chess but it's not a very sophisticated game.

Whether the operation succeeds or fails, Russia's strategic position does appear to be catastrophically worse than it was before, and I don't think fishing for the silver lining is going to change that.
Putin is capturing more territory, gas prices are up thanks to OPEC+(Russia plus OPEC), and the US is facing China, and Russia at the same time when it's facing an economic recession. I want Ukraine to win, and I want Russia to lose, and be replaced by a democratic government with pre-2014 borders, but let's not kid ourselves. They got lucky. Ukraine is losing 100 soldiers a day, and which amounts to around 36,500 troops a year, and this war could go on for multiple years. The US military/government thinks it's being clever by sending Ukraine lesser arms vs longer-range weapons like MLRSs, and SPGs, but once we hit a recession the political will to send more weapons could be lowered. Meanwhile, Russia and China still have the hypersonics edge, China just build its third aircraft carrier which is a supercarrier, and catching up with the US in naval engineering.
 

Terminal Blue

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If the intention was to seize the territory of Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as a southern corridor to Crimea, it looks perilously close to succeeding.
Sure, but that raises the question of why they didn't initially try to do that and only fell back on it when the push on Kyiv failed. It also raises the question of what strategic value those regions actually have. They used to be quite industrialized but the civil war has completely destroyed the economy there. Whatever natural resources they have are going to be incredibly costly (and in some cases hazardous) to exploit. The remaining population is deeply divided, meaning there will continue to be ethnic and political tensions whatever the outcome is, and the region will entail substantial security expenses that probably outweighs any value it can give.

If we accept that that's the operational objective now, then sure, it's something Russia can quite possibly win. But from a strategic standpoint its still a complete disaster. It's massively strengthened NATO, politically isolated Russia and slam dunked the entire Russian economy (such as it was) straight into the bin for a small area of basically useless land full of disloyal people, and that's in a predominantly Russian speaking area with a significant pro-Russian population. In other occupied regions it's going to be even worse.

There's also the even worse possibility that the Russians send terms for a ceasefire to Ukraine and the Ukranian government just says no, and you're stuck in a situation where both sides are exhausted and yet continue to wage a low intensity war which drags out for years and continues to serve as an expensive embarassment.

Putin is capturing more territory, gas prices are up thanks to OPEC+(Russia plus OPEC), and the US is facing China, and Russia at the same time when it's facing an economic recession.
Again, let's put this into perspective.

US GDP per capita is 6 times higher than Russia. The total size of the US economy is 13 times the size of Russia. The idea that Russia is winning any kind of economic warfare against the US (even assuming it was just the US which it isn't), is an absolute joke. If Russian policy is economically harming the US, then it's harming Russia vastly more.

On the topic of gas prices, US gas prices are much lower than those in Europe because the fossil fuel industry in the US is heavily subsidized to keep those prices artificially low while in many European countries it's heavily taxed. I'd also add that a lot of the problems with energy right now are actually domestic, and not related to OPEC or Russia. For example, oil use fell during the Pandemic (less people driving or flying), so oil companies lowered production to avoid flooding the market, and now as consumption is rising again production is lagging behind as it takes a long time to bring refineries back up to capacity.

Frankly, higher gas prices are not bad. The reason people in Europe can deal with paying 8 or 9 dollars to the gallon is because high gas prices have incentivized economies which are less reliant on oil generally, which is part of the reason why our governments tax it so heavily.

Ukraine is losing 100 soldiers a day, and which amounts to around 36,500 troops a year, and this war could go on for multiple years.
Sure, but Ukraine is in a state of full mobilization.

This is something that might seem really counter-intuitive and baffling, and which Western media has really not acknowledged because it gets in the way of the "David versus Goliath" narrative, but Ukraine has a more total manpower than Russia because it can make use of reserves and conscripts. Russian manpower issues have been really noticable, to the point of being militarily crippling. One reason those tanks keep getting ambushed and blown up by guys with missile launchers, for example, is because there aren't enough infantry to screen them. The Russian advantage in equipment is massive, but even those equipment stockpiles aren't infinite and the lack of manpower is resulting in a lot of waste.

Of course, if Russia decides to actually escalate and declare war on Ukraine that could all change very fast, but it's clear at this point that the government is extremely committed to not doing that.

The US military/government thinks it's being clever by sending Ukraine lesser arms vs longer-range weapons like MLRSs, and SPGs, but once we hit a recession the political will to send more weapons could be lowered.
Both the US and many European countries have sent artillery to Ukraine. The US and other American countries have tended to supply towed artillery, while european countries have provided more vehicles (including SPGs and MLRSs). The obvious reason for this is that Europe can use its preexisting rail system to transport large military vehicles, while the US has to send supplies across the Atlantic ocean.

Meanwhile, Russia and China still have the hypersonics edge
..which doesn't matter.

Hypersonic missiles are ludicrously expensive and only relevant in some hypothetical conflict between countries with state of the art modern anti-missile systems and high value targets like naval strike groups. Ukraine doesn't have those systems or targets, so hypersonic missiles are just really expensive cruise missiles. The one example I could find of a suspected hypersonic missile being used in Ukraine was fired at a munitions dump, which could just as easily have been destroyed by a regular cruise missile or aircraft carrier.

I'd also add that Russia's hypersonic missile system is, to put it bluntly, a bit shit.
 
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Silvanus

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Sure, but that raises the question of why they didn't initially try to do that and only fell back on it when the push on Kyiv failed. It also raises the question of what strategic value those regions actually have. They used to be quite industrialized but the civil war has completely destroyed the economy there. Whatever natural resources they have are going to be incredibly costly (and in some cases hazardous) to exploit. The remaining population is deeply divided, meaning there will continue to be ethnic and political tensions whatever the outcome is, and the region will entail substantial security expenses that probably outweighs any value it can give.
Wars are very rarely launched with only one acceptable operational objective. They will have an "ideal" scenario to pursue if possible (the fall of Kyiv, and regime change) and a fall-back scenario they would still count as a win.

If we accept that that's the operational objective now, then sure, it's something Russia can quite possibly win. But from a strategic standpoint its still a complete disaster. It's massively strengthened NATO, politically isolated Russia and slam dunked the entire Russian economy (such as it was) straight into the bin for a small area of basically useless land full of disloyal people, and that's in a predominantly Russian speaking area with a significant pro-Russian population. In other occupied regions it's going to be even worse.
They have already begun addressing the issue of the local populace being unsympathetic to Russia, by forcibly bussing them out and replacing them. And the strategic value of the land is in forming a land corridor between Russia and Crimea.

And I definitely don't believe the Russian economy is "in the bin". They have ready alternative sources for most imports, and the price rise in oil is compensating for the fewer buyers. It's causing some pain for consumers through lack of access & choice, sure-- but the Russian government has never cared about that. They're presumably thinking that once the war is over, and Russia has carved away more annexed land, the Western governments will eventually lose interest in continuing sanctions, and will let them drop.

There's also the even worse possibility that the Russians send terms for a ceasefire to Ukraine and the Ukranian government just says no, and you're stuck in a situation where both sides are exhausted and yet continue to wage a low intensity war which drags out for years and continues to serve as an expensive embarassment.
Russia will be counting on that being even less acceptable to Ukraine than it is to Russia.
 

Lykosia

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I'm not sure. If you desire an entire country and all you get is two meager oblasts that you already controlled anyway then that sounds more like a failure. Especially when weighed up to things like the crippled economy or the Russian military being exposed as a complete paper tiger.
If Russia gets Ukraine to sign a treaty where Ukraine gives Crimea and Donbass regions to Russia that would be a huge win for Russia. It would legitimize the conquest of those territories. No one could anymore argue against Russia when Russians says that those are legally theirs now. (Similar to Finland and Karelia) Western countries will not keep sanctions up for long after that because the sanctions are hurting them as well. Soon the prospects of Russian money will make one by one western nations and companies to start trading with Russia again. We're already seeing this happen.

And these sanctions are not hurting Russia as much as some believe. Russia is getting allies in China, Middle East and Africa.