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Agema

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This is why I don't trust the French left...

That Melenchon clown was kind enough to remind everyone that he's a traitor with quotes as this.
It's not just the French left, though, is it? It's a certain type of the left everywhere. We can see on this forum that the US left would sell out anyone and anything to appease Russia. Corbyn and his lot in the UK would, too, and so on everywhere. It's just what a certain branch of the left are like.
 
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Hades

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It's not just the French left, though, is it? It's a certain type of the left everywhere. We can see on this forum that the US left would sell out anyone and anything to appease Russia. Corbyn and his lot in the UK would, too, and so on everywhere. It's just what a certain branch of the left are like.
Indeed. That's a vexing habit of certain factions of the right. But France seems a country where this faction is dominant within the left. Its Melenchon who's the big left wing challenger while Hollande's old party's been on death's doors for years. And while I certainly don't trust Corbyn he at least got ousted by the British left, albeit for the pretty damning reason of them just wanting to reign as Tories in red.

Usually the pro Russian left wing parties are either powerless fringe parties or freaks, but in France the situation is different.
 

Gergar12

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Indeed. That's a vexing habit of certain factions of the right. But France seems a country where this faction is dominant within the left. Its Melenchon who's the big left wing challenger while Hollande's old party's been on death's doors for years. And while I certainly don't trust Corbyn he at least got ousted by the British left, albeit for the pretty damning reason of them just wanting to reign as Tories in red.

Usually the pro Russian left wing parties are either powerless fringe parties or freaks, but in France the situation is different.
Because France has nuclear weapons and a nuclear triad. The Germans don't, the Polish don't, and your country doesn't. I suspect France doesn't fear a Russian invasion, but they should fear Russia for other reasons, like hacking/cyberwarfare, overseas targeting of EU, and or French nationals.

The next candidate in the US to win the presidency had better be someone who is serious about Russia, who, like China has viruses in our electric grid, and the EUs as well.

My choice is Sen. Mark Kelly.
 

Agema

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The next candidate in the US to win the presidency had better be someone who is serious about Russia, who, like China has viruses in our electric grid, and the EUs as well.
The USA isn't serious about Russia. It just doesn't care.

The strategic documents the White House has just put out have effectively said that the USA's Atlantic ties are dead. The USA is prioritising the Pacific and leaving Europe to fend for itself (although it is still expected to obey the USA and hand it loads of money). It's been going this way for a while, I just think it was a little more sudden and full of ill-will than expected. Whoever the next president is won't fundamentally change that, they might just be a lot more polite about it.
 
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Hades

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Yes, we should really stop pretending that "the West" is a thing.
Oh it is a thing. The US just isn't part of it. They defected to the other side.

But the ''trans atlantic'' alliance indeed isn't a thing.
 

Agema

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"Sure, they'll roll over Europe, but they'd never mess with us."
Russia won't mess with the USA. Once the USA effectively departs the area, Russia won't have any reason to mess with the USA. Russia wants to restore its influence over eastern Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia; it hates the USA because the USA has been stopping it. Putin loves Trump because Trump's signalling that as far as the USA is concerned, Russia can do pretty much whatever it wants.

Russia's going to have its hands full trying to stop China dominating Central Asia, unpicking Turkey's encroachment on its traditional dominance in the Caucasus, subverting eastern Europe countries back into the control of authoritarian leaders beholden to Moscow and breaking up the EU. The USA may actually be its ally in some of these: specifically, helping constrain China, and secondly the fragmentation of Europe.
 

Silvanus

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Russian recruitment agencies are posting fake job adverts in African countries, including Kenya and Uganda, for people to come to Russia and work as plumbers, security guards etc. Upon arrival they are enlisted into the army and sent to Ukraine without training.

 
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BrawlMan

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Russian recruitment agencies are posting fake job adverts in African countries, including Kenya and Uganda, for people to come to Russia and work as plumbers, security guards etc. Upon arrival they are enlisted into the army and sent to Ukraine without training.

WTF! Racist mother fuckers! Tricking people to do their dirty work for them. Did you all run out of pawns in your own country? It went down on people of different skin color but are not afraid to trick them into the front lines for a war, they do not want nor understand the full ramifications. Fuck off Russian government, and at least do your own dirty work you've already been doing.
 

Hades

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Russian recruitment agencies are posting fake job adverts in African countries, including Kenya and Uganda, for people to come to Russia and work as plumbers, security guards etc. Upon arrival they are enlisted into the army and sent to Ukraine without training.

That's totally the sign of a nation functioning well. Kidnapping foreigners to serve in the military is a hallmark of a victorious state.
 
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Seanchaidh

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While in reality it isn't whether we declare war against Russia, it's whether we acknowledge that we're already at war with Russia.
If true, it is only because the United States put you in that situation. Melenchon is absolutely correct.
 

Seanchaidh

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I doubt it. Russia would want its horror empire back with or without the US. Russia’s brutality towards their neighbors predates the US.
You can say that about pretty much any European country that has existed in some form for that long, especially any large one. It is not a good way to argue about the essence of the Russian soul or whatever metaphysical nonsense you believe.
 

Satinavian

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You can say that about pretty much any European country that has existed in some form for that long, especially any large one. It is not a good way to argue about the essence of the Russian soul or whatever metaphysical nonsense you believe.
The others don't want their empire back.
 
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Thaluikhain

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The others don't want their empire back.
Well, you could argue that it's not Russia, it's certain individuals wanting their empire back, and/or you can argue that various other European powers do want theirs' back. But there's a clear difference in which are trying, and what methods they are using, to try and get their empires back.
 
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Hades

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You can say that about pretty much any European country that has existed in some form for that long, especially any large one. It is not a good way to argue about the essence of the Russian soul or whatever metaphysical nonsense you believe.
For this argument to work we’d need examples of the Dutch trying to get Belgium and Indonesia back, the French to recreate Napoleon’s empire or the Spanish to seek expansion into South America.

Very few European countries say they either still own or should still own countries they previously conquered, while its the whole essence of Russian foreign doctrine.
 

Satinavian

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essence of the Russian soul or whatever metaphysical nonsense you believe
That is something only you bring up again and again.

No one here has ever uttered any superstitions about Russians, nor linked the Russian desire for conquest to something Russians are born with or destined to have.

People however do criticize Russian culture. And argue that certain cultural traits have a long history. I don't even neccessarily agree with that. The current Russian wish for conquest and empire, the rampant machismo, the glorification of war and violence feels pretty reactionary to me instead. I mean, i grew up during the tail end in the Warsaw Pact and this is not how Russians were perceived then or how they behaved. (Which probably contributed to the fall of the soviet empire - many Russians didn't want to be an empire anymore or die in Afghanistan for it)
 
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Hades

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That is something only you bring up again and again.

No one here has ever uttered any superstitions about Russians, nor linked the Russian desire for conquest to something Russians are born with or destined to have.
To be fair I have expressed the thought that something is indeed deeply wrong with Russia since it stumbles from one backwards, violent authoritarian state right into the other. The Tsars, Soviet and Putin all came right after each other, and are all characterized by violence towards neighbors and indifference(or outright violence) to their own public. Starting bloody wars to mask their decline is also a pretty damning recurring trend.

And that's all certainly a bad look. Its hard to find a state so consistently poorly governed and in the wrong.