UPDATE: Video of Females on Female Characters Panel

[Moonlight Butterfly]

well putting a slave headband on the guy and forcing him to do as you say is kinda a dick move. I mean given the situation I can see why she did and I would probably do that as well but that doesn?t stop it from being a dick move.

I am a girl and I thought that when I heard about enslaved, I was like urgh :<

I think its the media sexualising game characters like Lara and Miranda that puts us off. Unfortunately I think Bayonetta has been a victim of that too. They are actually really good strong characters, although I personally find Miranda slightly irritating lol. We see these characters being promoted as sex objects and women say I don't think thats for me... when in reality it's actually a really fun game. I'm also going to risk the wrath and say I liked Lightning because she was a moody ***** something I have not seen a woman portrayed as before. The rest of the characters in that game made me want to destroy them with fire though.

 

[DementedSheep]

well putting a slave headband on the guy and forcing him to do as you say is kinda a dick move. I mean given the situation I can see why she did and I would probably do that as well but that doesn?t stop it from being a dick move.

I am a girl and I thought that when I heard about enslaved, I was like urgh :<

I think it?s the media sexualising game characters like Lara and Miranda that puts us off. Unfortunately I think Bayonetta has been a victim of that too. They are actually really good strong characters, although I personally find Miranda slightly irritating lol. We see these characters being promoted as sex objects and women say I don't think thats for me... when in reality it's actually a really fun game. I'm also going to risk the wrath and say I liked Lightning because she was a moody ***** something I have not seen a woman portrayed as before. The rest of the characters in that game made me want to destroy them with fire though.

I actually find Miranda irritating too lol but that?s because she a bit of a ***** not because I think bioware was being sexist when they designed her which is what allot of the hate I have seen is about. Never played FF13(it was 13 right?) so I can't comment on Lightning.

Yeah often it?s the media and how something is first presented that puts me off. You can have great female characters that are sexy and sometimes unrealistic is just fun but if I look at a game and the first thing I see is provocative woman and that seems to be the focus for the marketing I'm not likely to buy it. It looks like it?s aimed at men and its awkward. Which is exactly what happened when I saw Bayonetta and Tomb Raider tho I ended up playing Tomb Raider anyway because I like plat forming and puzzle games and later realised I actually liked Lara. If the game industry wants to interest more females I think they need to work on marketing and first impressions with how a character is portrayed.

 

[DreamingMerc]

Speaking about paternal motivations and situations with games the ever becoming go to sample Mass Effect 2 comes to mind with Samara with the details of what's done as her loyalty mission,still not spoiling it for those who have yet to play it or new PS3 players. Anyway with the specifics of what that mission is to that character, I wonder if that qualifies to what was described as a desire for more character motivation mixed with paternal instincts.

Furthermore, to continue praising the game and design choice, with the design choice that while you the player can entertain and pursue a romantic relationship with the character, Samara turn Shepard down, but not before saying she'd all but rock her/his universe which I find interesting on reflection. But what I really like about this isn't that it not built that her character is the naive innocent or the cold and dead, but she's just over that part of her life having been alive for so long and already had those experiences, or at least that's how I saw it. Going back to the specifics of the dialogue, she say's it would be good if not better and I like this idea because it represents a character making a choice out of her convictions suggesting layers of priorities, desires and such. There's at least the illusion of a character who prioritizes that in game world and how the character interacts with that world, although at a very limited extent.

Now coming along a different thought not related to Bioware. I wonder how the panel would feel about tongue and cheek misogyny with a male protagonist game, what with the up coming release of Duke Nukem Forever. How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

I think we can laugh along with everyone else. I don't think anyone takes that stuff seriously.

 

[DementedSheep]

Now coming along a different thought not related to Bioware. I wonder how the panel would feel about tongue and cheek misogyny with a male protagonist game, what with the up coming release of Duke Nukem Forever. How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

Honestly I don?t think it would really bother me tho obviously I can?t speak for all girl gamers. Duke Nukem is in no way serious, its prettty much a parody. I might even play it for a laugh.

 

[Saelune]

Ivy? Crappy? I own people with Ivy in SC4, so I dont know what SHE was talking about.

 

[tetron]

I just read the post, didn't bother watching the videos. From what I read of that though it seems that female gamers don't want female characters to change. They just want them to have more prominent roles, and to be their own woman. So more games with female leads that are oversexualized bimbos with "well developed traits and personalities" that you can of course just ignore ? Hell that sounds ok with me, this coming from a guy who plays female characters in MMOs because hey if I gotta stare at an avatar for hours on end while grinding it can at least be a female avatar.

Men: OK we got this new game staring a female character, she's 36-24-36 y'know "the good stuff", and we're thinking of making the camera really focus on her ass and breasts throughout the game.
Women: Grrr
Men: Oh but she's strong, thoughtful, and she's her own woman.
Women: =D Sounds Great !
Men: Sweet.

All in all I was kind of surprised that the rough and headstrong Lightning and Fang were vilified while the nigh sexually overbearing Ivy and Bayonetta were held up as examples of good female characters, not to mention the latter pair have relatively poor motivations and not a lot of depth. Admittedly both pairs consists of an amnesiac and an emo but at least the former pair have more of a reason to fight than "because we're in an action game". Heh, wish that was more of an exaggeration than it seems.

 

[Shjade]

Female characters are hard to write
... For Guys.

Like any creative talent-related challenge, it's really an individual thing. Some folks write amazing characters seemingly without effort but can't plot their way out of a paper bag. We all have our high and low points.

snip

You might want to watch the videos, it'd probably clear up your misconceptions.

For instance, your example character development process would get an immediate halt because of crap camera control if it's stuck on T&A mode instead of letting you see where the hell you're trying to jump - this was the panel complaint about Tomb Raider, not Lara's cup size.

Also, Ivy was held up as an example of a terrible just-eye-candy female character, not a good one.

 

[The Madman]

Since the panellists mentions forums a couple times, and The Escapist forums specifically at one point, I'm kinda hoping this gets read:

Kathleen DeVere (Middle panellist with the red hair!) asked for a game with a female protagonist portrayed realistically who interacts with believable and well rounded minority characters as well, there's one out there, 'The Longest Journey'. Old point & click adventure game on the PC. Main protagonist is a female character who as an art student living in a small youthful district interacts with all sorts of characters of various origins. It's just a really well told story with lots of well written and believable characters, and I'm always disappointed when it's never brought up in favour of more mainstream titles.

If players want games with characters like that to become successful, talk about them, give them publicity. Otherwise they'll be continually doomed to failure in favour of retreating more common ideas which are brought up more often; example being the dismal character in FF.

And for the 'romance everyone' comment in relation to Mass Effect also kinda annoyed me. I'm sick of romance in games, I really am, because all too often the romance are the characters main selling points. Miranda is a boring character to me because her explicit purpose is to be a romance option for male players. Period. That's pretty much it. The reason a character like Tali is so beloved is because she was created as a companion rather than a romance option, at least initially. So by saying 'I wanna have the option to screw everyone regardless of gender', wouldn't that have to come at the expense of the characters as well? What if Tali isn't interested in other women, what then? Will players complain? Likely. Frankly I don't think she should ever have become a romance in the first place regardless of gender because I've always been of the belief that before you should try writing any sort of romance plotline, you need to make the character and her interactions not only believable, but appealing. The character needs to be someone you'd want as a friend, and then the 'relationship' should grow from there.

In most cases however it's the other way around. Characters are created a romance first, with likeability added later. And that's just plain poor storytelling. What I want Bioware to do is just forsake 'romance' entirely for awhile and just focus on friendship. Now *that* would be impressive.

And on a side note, screw the haters, Tomb Raider rocks if platforming and puzzle solving are your thing. Tomb Raider: Anniversary was one of my favourite games of the year when I played it!

 

[The Madman]

..

 

[theprokrastinator]

I heard someone in the video briefly mention the Persona games (I think it was Kathleen.) and I'm kinda surprised they weren't discussed in greater depth. The backgrounds of the characters and their complex reactions to events are well written and some of the women you can develop relationships with are amazing. Naoto Shirogane (Persona 4) is my favourite example and it's also the only example I've found so far which explores gender roles/issues while still being relevant (relateable?) and adding alot to the main story (please tell me if you know of any more RPG's that touch on this issue, I'd love to play them!). I personally would love to see a game where I can play as Naoto outside of that Persona format as I feel she realy is THAT strong a character. She's flawed and has worries and concerns; she's been affected by whats been thrown at her and she's still working it all out while striving to remain in control. It's what makes her so real and so human.

An episode of Extra Credits (the one on sexual diversity in games... Thanks so much for making these videos by the way guys!!) explains her situation a bit better along with the games gay character who manages to confront stereotypes by being a generally kick ass dude. I really can't reccomend Persona 4 enough if you're gaming for the story and for the genuinely relateable characters; as Daniel (Extra Credits) rightly says, just paraphrasing here: Even if these figures aren't totaly relevant to you personally there are still so many issues they bring up which we've all, male or female, experienced at some point or another. So for that, thanks Persona!


lol

 

[Ipsen]

I think it's probably harder to develop that type of charisma, though, for a video game character, which is why most of them are created to conform to our societal stereotypes of sexiness.

Interesting that you bring up charisma for a video game character. To speak of charisma, are/(how)should we be led by our characters in games, while we're obligated to control them at the same time? Im tired/lazy, so I also cannot think of any character examples that may display this, male or female.

 

[maninahat]

even a overtly sexual character like Bayonetta has promise.

"It's a silly main premise for a character, and it's supposed to be fun to play and I don't have a problem with that as a female gamer," DeVere said. "[Bayonetta] is a female main character - if they think they can sell a game with a female main character, and make her witty, that's a big step."

Tracey John wasn't sure that Bayonetta was empowering for female gamers, to which Susan Arendt responded, "I think what makes Bayonetta appealing is that she very much owns her sexuality. She's hot, but she's ain't hot for you." Bayonetta exists in a world where sex is normal, but that doesn't mean she does it for your approval.

Surprising responses, to be honest. I was expecting Bayonetta hate. I just knew she'd turn up in there somewhere.

Yet they still focus heavily on Bayonetta's sexualized qualities, which means they are not bothering to look below the surface and see what really makes her tick.

It's hard not to . She's a magical dominatrix. Though an interesting one with maternal tendencies and (as a dominatrix) a lot of confidence. Shame some of her dialogue is utterly awful (deliberate campness, not withstanding).

 

[maninahat]

I think it's probably harder to develop that type of charisma, though, for a video game character, which is why most of them are created to conform to our societal stereotypes of sexiness.

Interesting that you bring up charisma for a video game character. To speak of charisma, are/(how)should we be led by our characters in games, while we're obligated to control them at the same time? Im tired/lazy, so I also cannot think of any character examples that may display this, male or female.

Manny Calavera is a good example. You can understand why girls would find him sexy. He has an awesome voice and wit, despite his diminuative stature and his massive forehead.

 

[Manji187]

"All characters are hard to write" indeed...so how about genuinely trying ay, gaming industry?

In the case of female characters: if Bayonetta is lauded for advancing female character development (she accepts her sexuality...but doesn't need your approval)...then the road ahead is going to be a long one.

The problem I have with this point of view is that people have been making female characters for several millennia now. So to try to limit this notion to the history of gaming is a bit ridiculous. Even within the scope of gaming we've come quite far. Considering the first widely accepted female gaming character was a copypasta yellow blob with a bow tacked on top of it to suggest it's sudden change of gender.

Writing characters is a difficult process. Anyone who's tried to do it knows how hard it can be, exponentially more difficult when done on a time schedule. And these ideas are made much more difficult when applied to a medium that is fundamentally interactive and needs to hold the attention of it's audience more fervently then traditional media.

Frankly I don't think Bayonetta could possibly be as bad as someone like Snooki from Jersey Shore. And that's a real person...allegedly.

I agree that the pool from which inspiration can be drawn is larger than just videogames. Doesn't seem like the industry is tapping it though.

My personal beef with Bayonetta is that it's one of those rare games with a female protagonist that cannot be mentally swapped for a male lead...and what does it do? The game makes it abundantly clear that it doesn't want to be taken seriously (even going so far as to include an unlockable Japanese physical education uniform), all under the excuse of "Well hey...that's just the style of the game. Artistic freedom, you know?" And they're absolutely right...but it's just so bloody convenient.

IMHO it's a damn shame because it could have been done differently/ better. Instead we've got a sassy/ cheeky skank who wears her hair and has disproportional legs. It's like..."All right people...don't bother writing a deep/ complex character...instead let's make her really weird and hope that that will make her interesting. Oh...and lets give her amnesia. And guns...on her stiletto heels."

To conclude my rant: I believe Bayonetta will go down in gaming history as just another wacky experiment. It will not significantly contribute to female character development...because the one thing Bayonetta truly contributes (accepting her sexuality without seeking the player's approval) is diluted by the game as a whole...it's wacky context/ atmosphere/ setting.

In the end, Bayonetta is a missed opportunity. It could have been so much more...but paradoxically it is limited by the game itself. That's why developers should be really careful in choosing their context/ atmosphere/ setting. The very fundamentals do not only enable...they also constrain.

I wouldn't be surprised if the developers would disagree with me...but then again having invested so much time/ effort in their "baby"...I also wouldn't be surprised if they weren't entirely without bias. And the Ego always seeks reasons to be proud.

 

[UnknownGunslinger]

I think what is probably the best female character I've ever experienced in a game was Heather from Silent Hill 3 - she was just so real in her characterization that she made the game for me.

 

[4173]

"All characters are hard to write" indeed...so how about genuinely trying ay, gaming industry?

In the case of female characters: if Bayonetta is lauded for advancing female character development (she accepts her sexuality...but doesn't need your approval)...then the road ahead is going to be a long one.

The problem I have with this point of view is that people have been making female characters for several millennia now. So to try to limit this notion to the history of gaming is a bit ridiculous. Even within the scope of gaming we've come quite far. Considering the first widely accepted female gaming character was a copypasta yellow blob with a bow tacked on top of it to suggest it's sudden change of gender.

Writing characters is a difficult process. Anyone who's tried to do it knows how hard it can be, exponentially more difficult when done on a time schedule. And these ideas are made much more difficult when applied to a medium that is fundamentally interactive and needs to hold the attention of it's audience more fervently then traditional media.

Frankly I don't think Bayonetta could possibly be as bad as someone like Snooki from Jersey Shore. And that's a real person...allegedly.

I agree that the pool from which inspiration can be drawn is larger than just videogames. Doesn't seem like the industry is tapping it though.

My personal beef with Bayonetta is that it's one of those rare games with a female protagonist that cannot be mentally swapped for a male lead...and what does it do? The game makes it abundantly clear that it doesn't want to be taken seriously (even going so far as to include an unlockable Japanese physical education uniform), all under the excuse of "Well hey...that's just the style of the game. Artistic freedom, you know?" And they're absolutely right...but it's just so bloody convenient.

IMHO it's a damn shame because it could have been done differently/ better. Instead we've got a sassy/ cheeky skank who wears her hair and has disproportional legs. It's like..."All right people...don't bother writing a deep/ complex character...instead let's make her really weird and hope that that will make her interesting. Oh...and lets give her amnesia. And guns...on her stiletto heels."

To conclude my rant: I believe Bayonetta will go down in gaming history as just another wacky experiment. It will not significantly contribute to female character development...because the one thing Bayonetta truly contributes (accepting her sexuality without seeking the player's approval) is diluted by the game as a whole...it's wacky context/ atmosphere/ setting.

In the end, Bayonetta is a missed opportunity. It could have been so much more...but paradoxically it is limited by the game itself. That's why developers should be really careful in choosing their context/ atmosphere/ setting. The very fundamentals do not only enable...they also constrain.

I wouldn't be surprised if the developers would disagree with me...but then again having invested so much time/ effort in their "baby"...I also wouldn't be surprised if they weren't entirely without bias. And the Ego always seeks reasons to be proud.

You have a point, but even if Bayonetta isn't a triumph for females in games, I think may be viewed in the future as proof of concept. Coming on the heels of X-Blade and Heavenly Swords it points to a different way forward. Investors are understandably risk adverse, and I don't think it's unreasonable to think Bayonetta may in someway contribute to even more well developed female leads down the road.

I would even go as far as saying the setting and atmosphere enhance her...empowerment, for lack of a better word. I recently played Bayonetta for the first time, because I enjoy (and suck at) the spectacle fighter genre and I heard it was more accessible. Frankly I was anxious that constant fanservice would overwhelm any positives the game might have. I found that because her character was played mostly straight, when I expected 20 hours of fan service, it stood out in sharper relief from the game's environment. Only a couple hours into the game I was able to almost completely ignore the fanservice moments and focus on Bayonetta the character, not the cartoon centrefold.

More concisely, as a male I was expecting the game to continually yank me out of the experience to highlight I was playing as a blow-up doll. Instead it (mostly) let me just play as Bayonetta. Frankly, I wasn't sure I could enjoy a game with a highly sexual female lead (as opposed to an attractive female, like Female Shepard) and I think it is a victory for the game that I was able to play it without feeling dirty.

(I realize this my just be post hoc rationalization, or that I'm pathologically unable to appreciate what a female experiences in gaming, but I can't really control that.)

 

[roostuf]

man i watched all of it and it was great!

those f-gamers sure do have great wits.