US 2024 Presidential Election

Kwak

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I do love me some grousing about the genocide and how Democrats kill children for profit, but while it definitely cost them votes, the biggest drag on them according to exit polls was the economy.

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For added comedy though, the centerpiece of Harris' campaign was about how much of a threat to democracy Trump was.

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But, he actually is though. What's funny about that?
 

crimson5pheonix

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No, I also don't think so either. This is why I started with the aside about being around the right wing in general. Between my family and my work (auto technician), and even living here in a, while now somewhat competitive, historically red state, I've had a bit of time to soak in the tepid bath water that is; yes, this is how it is. That there is indeed a voting block of nearly 50% of all voters who will consistently and without fail just...do this. I would love to live in a world where a coworker didn't come over and gush over how cool the stickers and slogans on the back of my dads truck the time I had to borrow it while my own car was out (said stickers and slogans calling for Fauci and others like members of our state gov to be rounded up and executed), or my where father isn't a craven asshole who'll side with his daughters abuser (this is also after he stuck a bullet in his hand and told him that he would shoot him if he crossed his daughter). Hell, I myself am so starved for leftist shit out here that I'd love for something as small as "unions are ok", not even great or world changing, just a neutral stance would be a breath of fresh air. Literally the only solace I can take is that 50%of voters is still only 25% of the total pop, but even then and discounting another 25% of that for children and others who can't vote, that means a full quarter who see all of this and just do absolutely fuck all.

Meanwhile, all anyone even vaguely left can seem to do (to me) is sit around and point fingers and argue over whose the actual leftist like
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That's why this thread makes me so upset, because if we don't come together then we're all fucked.
Then take heart in the fact that republicans are only strong because they tie their awful politics to a handful of popular (smart is debatable, but popular) policies to force people to vote for their shit. If these policies stand on their own, the awful shit, it fails. People (at least a majority) are in fact better, the electoral system we have is just incredibly shit.

Yeah, no doubt. Like that one joke from (speaking of nose dives) that asshole Dave Chappelle, "They're like Evel Kinevel; they get paid for the attempt." But again, I thought we hated that the Democrats pull this shit, so why try it now? But again, I don't think (or rather don't want to think) that that is what happened because the thought kills me.
Sadly it is precisely what happened. Already leaks from the campaign have come in saying that left shift around the convention and Walz got muzzled when the donors got skittish. Then they went with Mark Cuban and Liz Cheney, on demand of the donor class. They were literally paid to fail. I'm not sure if they knew it was going to doom the election and they didn't care, I can't read minds, but they did it.

I agree 100%, it's just that I can't find a way to square that up and make it fit into how the DNC thinks will net them a win (or, at times, if they even want to). Saying "go left to get left votes" is more esoteric and harder to explain/quantify than some brute force mathematical equation like "if we take x amount of votes from them, then they will be down x votes and we'll be up x votes and therefore win". But then again I am a cynical fuck, so who knows.
You can't make them think it. This is a lesson that is demonstrated to them constantly, and one they refuse to take in. They are paid to not realize this.

So...amongst absolutely everything going on, with all of the shit on every side, they could only get something up at the doddering old fuck, who never even made it to the election? I always hated that meme too, because it always felt like it was trying way too hard to pin Gaza entirely on Biden (not to say we arent culpable for what's going on, we absolutely are), meanwhile Needledick is over there actually ordering the tanks and planes (yes, almost always with American shells and bombs) to bomb the shit out of them with nary a peep (which, yes, is also an awful, ironic area of "see previous history with US" here). I mean forget "weird", the Dems had a vice-presidential candidate call the other a couch fucker, and they're the ones who need to learn and do better?

Because yes, they do (as evidenced by said pulling back on that and the weird comments to try and run to the right like they always fucking do...), but the bigger problem is this weird energy that keeps coming up where it feels like the only lesson being taken away is "this is entirely the Dems fault" for both their own loss, and the Greens. Because a single meme about a single candidate isn't helping, certainly not to help them dodge the meme of the Green Party being nothing but a way to split the left into useless chunks. Because again, it's 2024 my dude. Yes, we are terminally online because we are talking politics on a capital-F Forum (as a quick aside, whoever decided that all internet/chat things should move from numbered pages to infinitely scrolling needs to have their shoelaces tied together permanently). But 90% of Americans have a device literally in their pocket with access to, not only the internet at large, but even larger apps like Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube usually come preloaded these days as well. Everyone is online these days, hell, the only people who only watch cable/local TV or listen to the radio for news tend to be the very same sort of completely entrenched conservatives we keep slamming the Dems for chasing. TV killed the radio 44 years ago, and now the internet has come and killed it. This isn't to say that money isn't important, a campaign for national office takes a bit of staff who need to be paid I imagine, but to come back to the above, a good portion of them have phones with 4k capable video cameras. Literally all it takes is a potential Green candidate walking up to someone like MTG and recording a selfie video of asking them "So you're a sub right? Is 'Amen' your safeword?" and it would kill, especially if something as light as weird could whip people up. At the end of the day, we do need to figure out why it feels like they are purposefully not doing anything to actually try and win, and it can't just be "the DNC won't let them", you know? (Again though, I fully admit to not seeking out Green Party stuff ATM, so it's always possible they are doing these things already, I don't know and that's a failure on my part).
The answer to that is yes, the Greens do do interviews and forums and all sorts of other content. And as you note, you didn't know. I suppose I could have posted more Stein/Ware things on here, which would indeed be smart, but then I'm just reaching the Escapist here. But people post these things across twitter and facebook and whatever else, but what breaks into the mainstream, what people see, are influencers boosting very specific content. Like cutting a small snippet of Ware's interview on a local radio station where he basically wanted to codify Roe v Wade, but the influencer labeled his message as asking for an abortion ban and then every dem influencer spread that link with that message, even though it was complete bullshit. The people who share green content have like a dozen followers, dem influencers have thousands, 6 or 7 digit follower counts. We are online, a lot of people are, a lot of people aren't, and more importantly the online social media environment is carefully curated to create echo chambers. Shit sucks, you still need mailers, as passé as they seem.

I'll tell you right now, I got a dozen mailers from Ted Cruz telling me how much of a communist Collin Allred is (I wish), but the only time I heard anything from Allred was on embedded youtube videos in discord. I saw or heard nothing from him otherwise. Apart from his message that he's a family value christian who will stand against the trans menace. Admittedly, I think he was hedging his bets and lying on that, but it's a bad look.

And dems are easy to blame for suppressing the greens when they quite literally litigate to suppress the greens.

(as a quick aside, whoever decided that all internet/chat things should move from numbered pages to infinitely scrolling needs to have their shoelaces tied together permanently)
I think that was twitter, which means we can officially blame Elon Musk, even if it predates his takeover.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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The LESSER EVIL schtick wasn't convincing before Democrats decided that adding Genocide to the definition of Lesser Evil was acceptable.

You talk about how I can call both sides evil because it won't affect me because I'm a straight white male (even with Trump saying people like me are traitors too) but you all do the same thing with voting Democrats. You're not Palestinian so you voting for The Pro-Genocide Party is fine because their evil won't affect you. You're willing to burn an entire country worth of people to the ground as long as you personally aren't affected by it.
So first off, yes, obviously the whole "just better than Trump" shtick is a lame horse that already lost 2016, no arguments there. I also didn't say that*. And I will say that you donating money to local causes is genuinely amazing, and I wish I had spare time/money to do the same. Good on you, truly.

But yes I can say that, because as another straight white male with leftist views, I am in the same amount of danger as you, which is to say, not much (at the moment). Because for as much noise as conservatives make, the thought police don't actually exist yet, and so long as you can go without wearing a "Communism Is Great!" T-shirt or spontaneously shouting "Free Palestine!" while out walking, they aren't going to be able to pick you out of a crowd and go "He's a lefty, get him!", you know? Unlike anyone with skin darker than pasty white, holds hands with their SO, or even those who outwardly look like a woman, who have much easier to spot things that make it easier to persecute, you know?

Also, this whole "you don't care because it doesn't affect you" is wild, because which one of us has been sitting in here loudly going on and on about how they're above the trolley problem because of they're voting preference? Because guess the fuck what, you have just as much as responsibility to that lever as most of the people you're arguing with, because you're an American too! You share just as much anguish and fury that we will support Genocide and other cruel vicious acts just as you share the culpability for its continued existence, and that doesn't change because you cast a fucking ballot.

My God, your tone in this thread is less the demure tones of someone who donates their precious resources to help local causes and now will have to work harder, and more of a smug asshole taking a victory lap. For what, I could hardly begin to even imagine, because you literally cannot say that the Dems did terrible and the Greens didn't, not without looking insane. You keep up this "haha, look at all you assholes who didn't learn anything, sucks to suck." like you aren't riding in this exact same car, flying off this exact same cliff. Like, if you want to hold the DNC's failures (of which you have already stared they don't learn from) as being the fault of people here (especially the non-Americans, Jesus), then do we get to hold you responsible for the Greens not being able to pick up 80 million votes?

Because guess what? I voted for the Pro-Genocide candidate. That is my shame and burden to bear as someone who does care about the Genocide (because empathy and the cruel destruction of a people indeed fills me with anguish too), because I'm also left with the disgusting but real blood calculus that, in an emergency situation, you put your own oxygen mask on first. The only thing harder than saving one drowning person, is trying to save two. And no, I do no at all think that the DNC would somehow save us, far from it, it's just that, for those who sure seem to still believe in the power of democracy and civic power deep down, I feel like we could have at least tried bandaging the wound before moving right to the hacksaw. And yes, I know that this usually doesn't work, but it's either the Dems (which as above, usually doesn't work) or the Republicans (which never works).

But, I don't have the luxury of being able to vote fully with my conscious, because it's not just me out here. I have four sisters, and even my mom (who seems to be the prototypical conservative woman these days, right down to "God put me here to keep my husband's house and rear his kids") to also worry about, two of which are currently engaged to Latino men, whose status as EDIT: *American* citizens won't matter much when Arpaio's old deputy takes charge with express permission to harass anyone who looks "illegal". Hell, I'm barely keeping my own goddamn head above the rocky waves of depression, much less do more than cling to what little hope I have left that voting and democracy in general still work to try and stave off what seems like a forgone conclusion.

Please don't take any of this as an attack, or even arguing really. It's mainly just a plea for you to try and just, slow your roll for a moment. This holier than though attitude, and this whole persecuted martyr complex you have where you act like the only person burdened with empathy shtick is wearing thin, and causing all of us to bicker and waste time while these right wing cunts run away from us. Especially trying to pin wanting to burn this shit down out of lack of concern on others when you've already stated that you both think the US should probably burn/will burn anyway,
Then that is a party that is not worth voting for and if we can't stand up and say "Hey, GENOCIDE is a bad thing for us to do", then yeah, I'm not sure we as a country deserve to survive anymore.

It's already falling apart at the seams anyway so no matter what happens on November 6th, this place might burn anyway.
and then try and add fucking qualifiers to it
This might sound crazy but my definition of burning the system down is to help people by forcing politicians to work for the people rather than for big corporations and lining their own pockets. I know it's very unlikely that we'd get to the point of burning down the system that we'd actually dismantle Capitalism but that would be the ideal goal of burning down the system.

When Trump says he wants to "burn the system down", he's talking about burning everyone else around him while he gobbles up more power, influence, and money.

You either just plain don't read what I say or you have zero ability to understand what I actually say. I'm not sure which one would be worse...
*Like, if you get to sit here and try and draw distinctions around how your burning everything down is totally different than Trumps, than I get to draw one around the fact that "one evil being worse than another doesn't make one lesser or invalidate them altogether".

Edit: I will also point out, as a measure towards me not wanting to fight, that I do look like an abject clown coming into a thread already 2,000 posts deep and try and moderate, especially pretty much one side it seems, so my bad there.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Then take heart in the fact that republicans are only strong because they tie their awful politics to a handful of popular (smart is debatable, but popular) policies to force people to vote for their shit. If these policies stand on their own, the awful shit, it fails. People (at least a majority) are in fact better, the electoral system we have is just incredibly shit.
I hope so, because being stuck out here for so long and hear none stop guff is getting too much, I'll tell you what.
Sadly it is precisely what happened.
Oh no, I knew that had happened (Harris/Walz being muzzled and a shift right-off a cliff), that was mainly about the thought of leftists intentionally voting for Trump to spite the Dems (like they need help losing, lol).
You can't make them think it. This is a lesson that is demonstrated to them constantly, and one they refuse to take in. They are paid to not realize this.
Yeah, it just sucks.
The answer to that is yes, the Greens do do interviews and forums and all sorts of other content. And as you note, you didn't know.
OK, so first this is all reasonable and I do agree, but I must again point out this weird notion that influencers who would follow someone who distorts something to that extent are either Dems, or that their followers would be the types of votes sought after. Worse still, is that I don't know whether or not I've just been around my insane parents too long or purely from my point of ignorance and my own personal 'vibes', but I can't help but feel like the Greens underperform to a degree bordering on them being a 'fix', you know? Like, we accept that the Dems are obviously being paid to fail, but that those people paying them to fail aren't also paying them to maintain an outwardly anti-left nature to a corrupt degree, or even fund and create their own party to further the evil corrupt left narrative? Are we really going to sit here and say that an organization, who's sole purpose is put politicians into elected office, just doesn't know how to file their own paperwork, and just so happens to coincidently need to be shown how by the very party they would be ostensibly running against, and both just happen to be the only remotely left wing parties on the ballot?
chuck-better-call-saul-rant-explain-chicanery.gif
I can't help but feel like the call is coming from inside the house at times, you know? But again, this is my ignorant ass blowing bubbles in the tub, so I'm (hopefully) wrong.
 

Silvanus

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Trump has said that Tom Homan, former acting director of ICE and an author of Project 2025, will be in control of borders and deportations in Trump's administration.

Homan at the Convention: “Trump comes back in January, I’ll be on his heels coming back, and I will run the biggest deportation force this country has ever seen.”
 

Mister Mumbler

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You have my sword.
I think that was twitter, which means we can officially blame Elon Musk, even if it predates his takeover.
To take this aside all the way to the station, I also propose adding whomever thought that Discord should replace forums to this shoelace King of Rats with the other two, and then use that sword to slap the shit out of all three of them.
8fBJ6z.gif
 

Casual Shinji

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So I guess we can expect an uptick in women getting their tubes tied, seeing as the "barbaric" nature of abortion and "sanctity" of life completely overrides their safety, which I'm sure won't cause the Republicans to take steps in banning that procedure as well.
 

crimson5pheonix

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I hope so, because being stuck out here for so long and hear none stop guff is getting too much, I'll tell you what.
I dread visiting family.

Oh no, I knew that had happened (Harris/Walz being muzzled and a shift right-off a cliff), that was mainly about the thought of leftists intentionally voting for Trump to spite the Dems (like they need help losing, lol).
Oh that part, yeah. I don't know. On the one hand it is up there in counterproductive moves, but on the other it means that vote count is transient. But in any case, I don't know.

OK, so first this is all reasonable and I do agree, but I must again point out this weird notion that influencers who would follow someone who distorts something to that extent are either Dems, or that their followers would be the types of votes sought after. Worse still, is that I don't know whether or not I've just been around my insane parents too long or purely from my point of ignorance and my own personal 'vibes', but I can't help but feel like the Greens underperform to a degree bordering on them being a 'fix', you know? Like, we accept that the Dems are obviously being paid to fail, but that those people paying them to fail aren't also paying them to maintain an outwardly anti-left nature to a corrupt degree, or even fund and create their own party to further the evil corrupt left narrative? Are we really going to sit here and say that an organization, who's sole purpose is put politicians into elected office, just doesn't know how to file their own paperwork, and just so happens to coincidently need to be shown how by the very party they would be ostensibly running against, and both just happen to be the only remotely left wing parties on the ballot?
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I can't help but feel like the call is coming from inside the house at times, you know? But again, this is my ignorant ass blowing bubbles in the tub, so I'm (hopefully) wrong.
In that specific instance of faulty paperwork, they were actually supposed to be told by the government officials that they had submitted paperwork incorrectly (which I can't fault, I've failed to government paperwork before), but the officials simply didn't tell them. The Greens didn't know they failed to paperwork until it was too late. But in general, there are problems with the Greens, true. But if I'm going to spend time to help build up a party, I'm going to spend that time on a party I actually want to build up. Even if we reach the point where we accept both are captured by capital, that just means we discard the Dems anyway and focus on fixing the Greens. I don't think the Greens are, I think they're chronically underfunded and run by volunteers who may make more mistakes than the lawyers the big boys can pay for, but even if we accept that as true, that doesn't pull me back to the Dems.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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I dread visiting family.
Try living with them (though once again, I am truly sorry, this shit is straight all bad no good)
Oh that part, yeah. I don't know. On the one hand it is up there in counterproductive moves, but on the other it means that vote count is transient. But in any case, I don't know.
Me neither dude.
In that specific instance of faulty paperwork, they were actually supposed to be told by the government officials that they had submitted paperwork incorrectly (which I can't fault, I've failed to government paperwork before), but the officials simply didn't tell them. The Greens didn't know they failed to paperwork until it was too late.
OK, but see, which one is most likely, that the entire DNC conspired to jam up this paperwork, that they paid off the clerk or whomever was in charge of this to do so, or (honestly most likely) that an overworked government employee in an understaffed department simply did what government in general is wont to do and took to long to notice the mistake and unfortunately just happened to be for something that would hit the news this time?
But in general, there are problems with the Greens, true. But if I'm going to spend time to help build up a party, I'm going to spend that time on a party I actually want to build up. Even if we reach the point where we accept both are captured by capital, that just means we discard the Dems anyway and focus on fixing the Greens. I don't think the Greens are, I think they're chronically underfunded and run by volunteers who may make more mistakes than the lawyers the big boys can pay for, but even if we accept that as true, that doesn't pull me back to the Dems.
Because again, as a fellow believer in civic power, I wouldn't want you to. You should have a party that represents you and the power to change it should it fail to meet those ideals, hell even conservatives too (provided they don't use the power to do stupid shit), and what I wouldn't give to get some ranked voting and parliamentary style 12 different parties in office and such, it's just that it would be remiss of me not to point out the folly in trying to blame the entirety of the Green Party performance up to now on some huge orchestrated effort to keep them out of power, both in its uselessness to help the party grow and in its gross parallel to what the right keeps saying is happening to them. Like I said, I voted for Stein back in '16, and I'd be happy to vote Green again at some point when it all isn't so fraught (as bad as that does sound).
 

tippy2k2

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So first off, yes, obviously the whole "just better than Trump" shtick is a lame horse that already lost 2016, no arguments there. I also didn't say that*. And I will say that you donating money to local causes is genuinely amazing, and I wish I had spare time/money to do the same. Good on you, truly.

But yes I can say that, because as another straight white male with leftist views, I am in the same amount of danger as you, which is to say, not much (at the moment). Because for as much noise as conservatives make, the thought police don't actually exist yet, and so long as you can go without wearing a "Communism Is Great!" T-shirt or spontaneously shouting "Free Palestine!" while out walking, they aren't going to be able to pick you out of a crowd and go "He's a lefty, get him!", you know? Unlike anyone with skin darker than pasty white, holds hands with their SO, or even those who outwardly look like a woman, who have much easier to spot things that make it easier to persecute, you know?

Also, this whole "you don't care because it doesn't affect you" is wild, because which one of us has been sitting in here loudly going on and on about how they're above the trolley problem because of they're voting preference? Because guess the fuck what, you have just as much as responsibility to that lever as most of the people you're arguing with, because you're an American too! You share just as much anguish and fury that we will support Genocide and other cruel vicious acts just as you share the culpability for its continued existence, and that doesn't change because you cast a fucking ballot.

My God, your tone in this thread is less the demure tones of someone who donates their precious resources to help local causes and now will have to work harder, and more of a smug asshole taking a victory lap. For what, I could hardly begin to even imagine, because you literally cannot say that the Dems did terrible and the Greens didn't, not without looking insane. You keep up this "haha, look at all you assholes who didn't learn anything, sucks to suck." like you aren't riding in this exact same car, flying off this exact same cliff. Like, if you want to hold the DNC's failures (of which you have already stared they don't learn from) as being the fault of people here (especially the non-Americans, Jesus), then do we get to hold you responsible for the Greens not being able to pick up 80 million votes?

Because guess what? I voted for the Pro-Genocide candidate. That is my shame and burden to bear as someone who does care about the Genocide (because empathy and the cruel destruction of a people indeed fills me with anguish too), because I'm also left with the disgusting but real blood calculus that, in an emergency situation, you put your own oxygen mask on first. The only thing harder than saving one drowning person, is trying to save two. And no, I do no at all think that the DNC would somehow save us, far from it, it's just that, for those who sure seem to still believe in the power of democracy and civic power deep down, I feel like we could have at least tried bandaging the wound before moving right to the hacksaw. And yes, I know that this usually doesn't work, but it's either the Dems (which as above, usually doesn't work) or the Republicans (which never works).

But, I don't have the luxury of being able to vote fully with my conscious, because it's not just me out here. I have four sisters, and even my mom (who seems to be the prototypical conservative woman these days, right down to "God put me here to keep my husband's house and rear his kids") to also worry about, two of which are currently engaged to Latino men, whose status as EDIT: *American* citizens won't matter much when Arpaio's old deputy takes charge with express permission to harass anyone who looks "illegal". Hell, I'm barely keeping my own goddamn head above the rocky waves of depression, much less do more than cling to what little hope I have left that voting and democracy in general still work to try and stave off what seems like a forgone conclusion.

Please don't take any of this as an attack, or even arguing really. It's mainly just a plea for you to try and just, slow your roll for a moment. This holier than though attitude, and this whole persecuted martyr complex you have where you act like the only person burdened with empathy shtick is wearing thin, and causing all of us to bicker and waste time while these right wing cunts run away from us. Especially trying to pin wanting to burn this shit down out of lack of concern on others when you've already stated that you both think the US should probably burn/will burn anyway,

and then try and add fucking qualifiers to it

*Like, if you get to sit here and try and draw distinctions around how your burning everything down is totally different than Trumps, than I get to draw one around the fact that "one evil being worse than another doesn't make one lesser or invalidate them altogether".

Edit: I will also point out, as a measure towards me not wanting to fight, that I do look like an abject clown coming into a thread already 2,000 posts deep and try and moderate, especially pretty much one side it seems, so my bad there.
You might notice a pattern with all of my "holier than though" posts. They're all done in response to people telling me I have to vote for the Pro-Genocide candidate because otherwise the other Pro-Genocide candidate will win.

I've said repeatedly that while I wouldn't vote for Harris, I understand why others would be willing to but if people are still going to come at me, I have zero issues throwing hands right back. If people don't want me to punch back, they should stop throwing punches at me because I have zero qualms about matching energy.
 

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You might notice a pattern with all of my "holier than though" posts. They're all done in response to people telling me I have to vote for the Pro-Genocide candidate because otherwise the other Pro-Genocide candidate will win.
Sorry to relitigate, but that simply isn't true. I never told you that. I said over and again your choice was principled and rational. You told me that I was supporting genocide anyway.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Sorry to relitigate, but that simply isn't true. I never told you that. I said over and again your choice was principled and rational. You told me that I was supporting genocide anyway.
are you sure it wasn't me?
 

tippy2k2

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Sorry to relitigate, but that simply isn't true. I never told you that. I said over and again your choice was principled and rational. You told me that I was supporting genocide anyway.
I told you the same thing I told all Harris supporters

You might not be a racist if you vote for Trump but Racism is clearly not a deal breaker for you

You might not be Pro-Genocide if you vote for Harris but Genocide is clearly not a deal breaker for you

If it's a fair enough line to use on Republicans, it's a fair enough line to use on Democrats
 

Silvanus

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I told you the same thing I told all Harris supporters

You might not be a racist if you vote for Trump but Racism is clearly not a deal breaker for you

You might not be Pro-Genocide if you vote for Harris but Genocide is clearly not a deal breaker for you

If it's a fair enough line to use on Republicans, it's a fair enough line to use on Democrats
Which is all the same holier-than-thou stuff. So it wasn't just in response to people telling you you have to vote a certain way. It was directed towards anyone voting outside the 0.4%, even tactically.