US 2024 Presidential Election

tippy2k2

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I suppose I should give you props about admitting your opinion wouldn't change no matter what he would or wouldn't do. Maybe.



Then again you also can't be the pro democracy candidate and then throw a gigantic hissyfit when the electorate is dumb enough to elect some criminal nutter. And as I said you'd probably have made that argument if Biden had refused to aid in the transition. Which you also kinda admitted just now.
Have any of you ever stopped to consider the reason I hate about 95% of our political class is because they talk out of both sides of their mouth (if I'm being extremely charitable) or just flat out lie constantly?

Biden just was flat out lying about the 30 day deadline for Israel to stop being genocidal monsters. Biden is now welcoming in the man who they have spent the last 5-10 years telling us all that he was Hitler 2.0 coming to kill us all (so unless he has decided to just throw us all to the wolves and has no intention of making it even a little difficult on Trump, another lie). Democrats just piss me off more with their lies because when they lie, they're lying about all the cool stuff they plan on doing and then don't do it while taking up the spot of a party that should be fighting for that cool shit. Even the "Progressive" assholes like AOC and Bernie love to talk the fucking talk when they have no power or ability to influence shit but when it's time to give out their endorsements, they fold like a 2 7 offsuit poker hand, get down on their knees, and gobble down all of the shit Democrats talk about wanting to get done if only they were in power that they continue to not get done when they are in power.

But this obviously isn't exclusive to Biden and The Democrats. I'm seeing a ton of Republicans online downplaying or flat out saying Trump was just rallying the troops with the tarif thing and he's not going to actually do it (see also the "Deporting all illegal immigrants/naturalized citizens). Republicans promise they want abortion to be a States Rights thing while doing everything in their power to stop states from being able to choose.

I have never understood why we not only accept that politicians lie straight to our faces but we outright EXPECT them to do so. Not only do we outright expect them to, but then people like myself get yelled at for calling their bullshit out instead of people being mad at the politicians for smiling to our faces while they sharpen the knife hiding behind their back...
 
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Silvanus

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An admitted sex predator takes a sweet plea deal offering testimony on Matt Gaetz, and after a long investigation turns up no other evidence Gaetz was involved, leaving them with only an unreliable witness as evidence, they drop the investigation, and that's enough to justify the title "known pedophile child sex trafficker".
This is, of course, a highly sanitised and stripped-down description of what actually happened.

The DOJ investigation was dropped. The House Ethics Committee investigation was not, and was due to publish this month, until his resignation caused them to lose jurisdiction.

And Greenberg's testimony was not all they had. They also had other testimony, including from Gaetz's ex-girlfriend and numerous people who'd been at a sex-&-drugs party they said he attended with a 17 year old. Also have records of highly suspect financial transactions between Gaetz and Greenberg (for various women, with notes like "for tuition").
 

thebobmaster

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Have any of you ever stopped to consider the reason I hate about 95% of our political class is because they talk out of both sides of their mouth (if I'm being extremely charitable) or just flat out lie constantly?

Biden just was flat out lying about the 30 day deadline for Israel to stop being genocidal monsters. Biden is now welcoming in the man who they have spent the last 5-10 years telling us all that he was Hitler 2.0 coming to kill us all (so unless he has decided to just throw us all to the wolves and has no intention of making it even a little difficult on Trump, another lie). Democrats just piss me off more with their lies because when they lie, they're lying about all the cool stuff they plan on doing and then don't do it while taking up the spot of a party that should be fighting for that cool shit. Even the "Progressive" assholes like AOC and Bernie love to talk the fucking talk when they have no power or ability to influence shit but when it's time to give out their endorsements, they fold like a 2 7 offsuit poker hand, get down on their knees, and gobble down all of the shit Democrats talk about wanting to get done if only they were in power that they continue to not get done when they are in power.

But this obviously isn't exclusive to Biden and The Democrats. I'm seeing a ton of Republicans online downplaying or flat out saying Trump was just rallying the troops with the tarif thing and he's not going to actually do it (see also the "Deporting all illegal immigrants/naturalized citizens). Republicans promise they want abortion to be a States Rights thing while doing everything in their power to stop states from being able to choose.

I have never understood why we not only accept that politicians lie straight to our faces but we outright EXPECT them to do so. Not only do we outright expect them to, but then people like myself get yelled at for calling their bullshit out instead of people being mad at the politicians for smiling to our faces while they sharpen the knife hiding behind their back...
You're right, 95% of politicians lie. You just seem to harp on about it, focusing almost completely on one side of the political spectrum like it's OK or expected when a Republican does it, heinous when a Democrat does it and...unfeasible that a third party candidate could be doing it. At least, that's the impression it gives off when you focus on every single time Biden does something hypocritical (I can't blame you there, it's not like you make the stuff up), but don't really seem to take note when Republicans do the same thing, other than potentially shrug and say "Well, that's the Republicans for you".
 

tippy2k2

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You're right, 95% of politicians lie. You just seem to harp on about it, focusing almost completely on one side of the political spectrum like it's OK or expected when a Republican does it, heinous when a Democrat does it and...unfeasible that a third party candidate could be doing it. At least, that's the impression it gives off when you focus on every single time Biden does something hypocritical (I can't blame you there, it's not like you make the stuff up), but don't really seem to take note when Republicans do the same thing, other than potentially shrug and say "Well, that's the Republicans for you".
I've said it before and I'll say it again

If I'm punching a Democrat for doing something bad, you can go ahead and assume that I'm also calling it bad when any politician does it.

I focus more on the Democrats because they're SUPPOSED to be the left wing party in this country so their lies affect the shit that I actually want to get done. This also means that they are taking up a spot where a True Left Wing party should be so not only does shit that I want not get done because they're in the way, a party who might actually want to get shit done that I want can't get a foot in the door because our country is stupid and insists on only getting two parties.

If I'm punching to the right, it is safe to assume that anyone to the right of that position is also a target of my punch. Unlike #VBNMW people, when I say it's bad that Genocide is happening, I don't mean it's bad Genocide is happening when only one party is doing.
 
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Schadrach

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Sad as it may be, Biden only has two available options for the inevitable presidential transition.

1. Do as Trump did and basically confirm the precedence that is the acceptable way to how all future transitions should go.
2. Do as it is supposed to be done and restore dignity to the process.
I mean, I guess he could do something very obviously illegal that would fall under the new immunity ruling in an attempt to get it neutered because Republicans won't let that kind of criminality stand if it's not from a fellow Republican.

No Democratic politicians think that on January 6th, 2021 democracy was in any danger. They lie to you.
Hypothetical: Let's say nothing at all was done to try to stop them on Jan 6 from doing anything they wanted, and the Jan 6 folks got everything they were trying for - what do you think that would look like?

I am wholly unsurprised by any of his picks. It's more or less either "which Republicans have the most social media exposure" or "who would Putin pick for this position"? I half expect MTG to get a seat in his cabinet.
 

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Not necessarily. They could think that while there is a threat, it is inconclusive whether it will manifest in such a way that there are no more elections. A bunch of other things make it pretty obvious, though-- or they make it obvious that they don't care either way.

Because he resigned before impeachment proceedings could conclude, after which he was pardoned.
And? Why can't the cops or probably the FBI (since I assume that was a federal crime) have just arrested Nixon? Why do you need to impeach him to arrest him? You guys all complained that the ruling that the president being immune was so awful when you can still impeach them and try the president (because that's in the fucking constitution). Nothing literally changed because of that ruling because even before that you're claiming Nixon was arrested because he would have to go through impeachment and whatnot. So Nixon in theory could've shot someone, resigned and they wouldn't have arrested him because he resigned before impeachment? If that's your claim, then why is that president immunity thing so bad? Seems like it was always that way then.
 

Asita

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This is my favorite aspect of the win by a mile. The mainstream media, social media, and all 3 branches of government all worked in concert to try to tell people to hate this man, and the majority of people said no. That is an actual victory for democracy.
My dude, Trump et al spent the last 5-years straight shouting over the airwaves of every network that aired him (and most did, whether because they supported him or because he was a public figure making outrageous statements) that if the Democrats win "you won't have a country any more", the last 8 years gaslighting his voter base that the US worked on Fisher King logic and therefore entered a golden age the very moment he entered office, and the last 4 years declaring that any and all efforts to recover from the mess he left behind (Granted, that very prominently includes Covid, which he had limited control over) was all Biden's fault and proved that we entered a dark age the moment he was elected. Never mind that the economic contrast was not remotely what Trump and his supporters pretend, and the perception to the contrary is largely due to the fallacy of "proof by assertion", with Trump and his allies' oft-repeated claims about the state of the country and economy making more headlines than the actual facts about them over the last 8 years and consequentially dominating perceptions about it.

He has been running his campaign virtually nonstop for the last 9+ years, has a disturbingly large chunk of the media ecosystem fawning over him as practically the Second Coming itself, and created his own "by Trump, for Trump" echo chamber/propaganda machine in the form of Truth Social two years ago.

Concurrently, Musk started abusing his acquisition of Twitter to advance the culture wars that Trump has been running on as he tried to win back Trump as a user, and to that end turned Twitter into one of the more brazen sources of election misinformation, particularly favoring Trump and using the platform as a central fulcrum for his pro-Trump "America PAC" and started suspending/banning left-leaning journalists for writing articles critical of Trump, while hypocritically complaining that he suspected that other Twitter personnel seemed favorably predisposed to left wing candidates in other countries.

For the last 8 years straight, the Republican outlets, pundits, commentators, and politicians have all religiously tried to downplay and normalize everything about Trump, while hypocritically clutching their pearls over nothing-burgers that they feel entitled to being seen as worse on principle. Case in point: When Clinton in 2016 and Harris in 2024 didn't concede before they even officially lost, it was spun as an inexcusable outrage and beyond the pale. But when Trump didn't concede the 2020 election for 4 years and counting? Complete with repeated meritless lawsuits and storming the capitol to try and get Congress to illegally flip the vote? They went all out on trying to excuse that as him just "exploring his legal options" and much ado about nothing.

They've been explicitly treating Democrat voters as foreign invaders that needed to be repelled, reinforcing Trump's fearmongering that Democratic votes are illegitimate and imported in the form of illegal immigrants, which itself builds off the constant refrain from Republican campaigns and conservative outlet for 40 straight years - almost nonstop ever since Reagan codified the rhetorical contrast between "Liberals and Americans" during his campaign. And meanwhile the Democrats are cast as spiteful and hyperbolic fearmongers even for highlighting how heavily Trump's rhetoric is rooted in prejudices such as xenophobia and racism (such as using immigrants as his go-to scapegoat and characterizing them as an infestation that is "poisoning the blood of our country"). Trump's supporters got practically coddled as they lived in flat-out denial about his electoral defeat for 4 years, but somehow that's painted as less shameful than Democrats being upset about the 2024 results mere days after the election.

The situation is not remotely what you pretend. Just look at the Top Podcasts for a moment: Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Charlie Kirk, Don Bongino, Theo Von, Megyn Kelly, Ben Sharpio, Cadance Owens...all in the Top 20, and most of whom have been all-in for years on promoting Trump, including painting any and all criticism of him (ranging from raised eyebrows to serious allegations) as - on principle - necessarily illegitimate, and characterizing Democrats as unamerican traitors who should be expelled from the country. These are not niche underground voices, they are big names with massive reach. Trump has had the full force of Conservative pundits practically campaigning for him and running interference on anything that could negatively impact his campaign. And then of course there were the churches that were using their religious services as political rallies that treated Trump as ordained by God and even messianic.

And let's peel back the paint a bit on that narrative that Trump being criticized shows bias against him. While Trump has been subjected to a lot of criticism for his rhetoric and actions, he has also overwhelmingly been treated with kid gloves and subjected to a much lower standard than everyone else. E.g. whereas Biden's mental acuity was questioned every time he so much as got a fact wrong, misspoke, or paused a little too long on the podium, Trump got hardly a fraction of that criticism despite routinely spouting nonsensical non-sequitur like claiming wind turbines kill whales or that magnets don't work underwater, bragging about his ability to pass a basic mental competency test (which he even implied to be difficult to do, and that he therefore deserved adulation for passing), and just standing onstage at his planned rally silently swaying to music for 40 minutes.

Can you just imagine the red flags that would have gone up if Biden or Harris had answered a question about what they thought was the biggest threat to manufacturing jobs in Michigan, with "Ok, so I’ll get into another little bit of a long answer. Because when you say major threat, to me we have one really major threat. That’s called nuclear weapons"? If Biden said it, it would have been treated as further evidence that his brain had turned to tapioca - showing that the only part of the question that his dementia addled-mind registered was the phrase 'major threat', and how that gaffe raised all sorts of alarm bells about his fitness for office. If Harris did it, it would have been treated as a potentially campaign ending gaffe showing how little she even thought about Michigan. But this exact exchange happened with Trump just two months ago and the story petered out as quickly as it appeared with him no worse for the wear.

There has indeed been a very clear double standard at play for the last 8 years, but despite popular rhetoric form you and the rest of Trump's supporters, the bias has been consistently in Trump's favor. Whereas everyone else actually had to act presidential and any slip-up was treated as a red flag, Trump has been consistently excused - and even celebrated - for not even acting like a functional adult, never mind how he's consistently appeared to be somewhere between grossly inattentive and senile, and having such a cavalier disregard for the truth that his allies coined the term "alternate facts" to downplay and normalize he and his allies' frequent, bizarre, often petty, and unapologetic breaks from reality. But even so, you and yours treat pushback against even that as in itself proving that the speakers must have been misled by the media to "just hate Trump" on uninformed principle, and use that assumption to further insist that the criticism must therefore be hyperbolic, when in fact he's typically gotten off considerably lighter than what literally anyone else would have for the same event.

This wasn't a victory for truth and democracy over the forces of the evil media. It was a testament to the sheer power of that double standard. And it's a testament to the reach and influence his supporters have over the popular discourse, never mind the power of being a golden calf, given how even the Religious Right has started calling out what has increasingly come off as outright idolatry of him.

Trump's 2024 campaign was many things, but by absolutely no stretch of the imagination was it the Cinderella Story you are painting it as. You can certainly argue that he was the underdog in 2016, but ever since then he's been the Republican frontrunner - and its most prominent 'kingmaker' - bolstered by the full power of the party, its congressional politicians, upwards of a plurality of its state politicians, and its media empire (plus his very own echo chamber of Truth Social, and later Twitter) both stumping for him almost around the clock and treating unwavering support for him as a purity test. And all of those counted his "MAGA" base as a core audience that they could not risk alienating, giving them a strong vested interest both in boosting Trump and pandering to he and his base's victim complex, because that audience's continued patronage of them was predicated on it.
 
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Silvanus

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And? Why can't the cops or probably the FBI (since I assume that was a federal crime) have just arrested Nixon? Why do you need to impeach him to arrest him? You guys all complained that the ruling that the president being immune was so awful when you can still impeach them and try the president (because that's in the fucking constitution). Nothing literally changed because of that ruling because even before that you're claiming Nixon was arrested because he would have to go through impeachment and whatnot. So Nixon in theory could've shot someone, resigned and they wouldn't have arrested him because he resigned before impeachment? If that's your claim, then why is that president immunity thing so bad? Seems like it was always that way then.
Impeachment is the only legal enforcement method against a sitting President. The theory was that after the tenure (including if impeachment removes them from office), then other agencies such as the FBI can pick it up and prosecute.

The immunity ruling categorically changes that. The immunity ruling means that even after leaving office, so long as they can argue their actions were done as acts of office, they're still immune.

So, had Ford not pardoned Nixon, he could have been prosecuted. But now, if someone did the same thing as Nixon, he wouldn't even need a pardon.

It was already very difficult to attain justice for a President's crimes. The ruling increases that difficulty. Makes it borderline impossible.
 

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Impeachment is the only legal enforcement method against a sitting President. The theory was that after the tenure (including if impeachment removes them from office), then other agencies such as the FBI can pick it up and prosecute.

The immunity ruling categorically changes that. The immunity ruling means that even after leaving office, so long as they can argue their actions were done as acts of office, they're still immune.

So, had Ford not pardoned Nixon, he could have been prosecuted. But now, if someone did the same thing as Nixon, he wouldn't even need a pardon.

It was already very difficult to attain justice for a President's crimes. The ruling increases that difficulty. Makes it borderline impossible.
Impeachment is to remove a president from office, it has nothing to do with being immune from arrest or anything. It was just that law enforcement wouldn't go after a president, not that the president actually had legal immunity.

And you just need to pick a VP that has your back, and the president was effectively immune. This ruling that you all b!tched about for being so horrible was already essentially a thing.
 

Silvanus

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Impeachment is to remove a president from office, it has nothing to do with being immune from arrest or anything. It was just that law enforcement wouldn't go after a president, not that the president actually had legal immunity.
Its the policy of the DoJ that a sitting President cannot be indicted. The authority of all federal prosecutors ultimately derives from the DoJ. That's effective immunity while sitting. That policy didn't convey any protection after they leave, and impeachment is the only process to remove them on legal grounds so law enforcement agencies can pursue prosecution.

And you just need to pick a VP that has your back, and the president was effectively immune. This ruling that you all b!tched about for being so horrible was already essentially a thing.
"Essentially" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Previously it required a presidential pardon. Now it doesn't. That's a material difference, so long as you accept that not every VP is corrupt.
 

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I focus more on the Democrats because they're SUPPOSED to be the left wing party in this country so their lies affect the shit that I actually want to get done.
They're....not though. The US doesn't have a real competitive left wing party. What they have is a liberal center right wing party in the democrats, and a hard right to far right party in the Republicans. The American political arena consists of right wing and more right wing. They even run as liberals as opposed to leftists or social democrats.
 
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tippy2k2

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They're....not though. The US doesn't have a real competitive left wing party. What they have is a liberal center right wing party in the democrats, and a hard right to far right party in the Republicans. The American political arena consists of right wing and more right wing. They even run as liberals as opposed to leftists or social democrats.
The difference is that I see that as a problem while others just go "Whatcha gonna do? 🤷" and settle for the crumbs that fall off the table as Democrats gorge on the promised buffet.

It might be a war doomed to fail from the start since this country insists we need multiple parties but refuses to put their money where their mouth is and won't vote accordingly but it's a war I will never stop fighting.
 

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Its the policy of the DoJ that a sitting President cannot be indicted. The authority of all federal prosecutors ultimately derives from the DoJ. That's effective immunity while sitting. That policy didn't convey any protection after they leave, and impeachment is the only process to remove them on legal grounds so law enforcement agencies can pursue prosecution.



"Essentially" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Previously it required a presidential pardon. Now it doesn't. That's a material difference, so long as you accept that not every VP is corrupt.
It's a policy they made up, they have no legal obligation to follow it.

The VP will be the person the president picked. It's not like the VP is the runner-up and from a different party.

They're....not though. The US doesn't have a real competitive left wing party. What they have is a liberal center right wing party in the democrats, and a hard right to far right party in the Republicans. The American political arena consists of right wing and more right wing. They even run as liberals as opposed to leftists or social democrats.
The parties aren't nearly that far apart. I find it rather entertaining how the left is so mad over this election (the right would be mad if they lost as well), the posts on Facebook are just ridiculous. People act like the difference between a Trump and Harris presidency is, for example, holding your arms out as wide as you can but the actual difference is the gap between your thumb and index finger.
 

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It's a policy they made up, they have no legal obligation to follow it.
?! Of... course it's a policy they created. They're a federal agency. They can decide their own policy.

The VP will be the person the president picked. It's not like the VP is the runner-up and from a different party.
So you expect every VP to be corrupt and willing to abuse the law to pardon a criminal former President, then?
 

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?! Of... course it's a policy they created. They're a federal agency. They can decide their own policy.



So you expect every VP to be corrupt and willing to abuse the law to pardon a criminal former President, then?
They can decide to arrest a president if they wanted to, they chose not to arrest Nixon.

The chances are high that a VP will defend/back their president.
 

Asita

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That's what the democrats do as well. You can't be a bully and complain about someone else also being a bully.
I know this is novel for someone like you, but try actually reading the post rather than just paying half-attention while skimming it for a gotcha that you can't even be bothered to contextualize.

What you're referring to here is me saying - as a piece of evidence contesting the claim that Trump was without a support network - that Trump's support network was very loudly proclaiming - again, quite falsely - that his was a reign of unprecedented prosperity and his successor's was one of unprecedented hardship.

The point that you - in your typical overeagerness to be contrarian - have failed to understand is that this was a very frequent and widespread narrative that has been consistently signal boosted by politicians, pundits, and media outlets for years. And that is directly contrary to the implication that Trump was without meaningful allies in any of those channels, much less all of them.
 

Silvanus

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They can decide to arrest a president if they wanted to, they chose not to arrest Nixon.
The DOJ, its executives appointed by the President, could change its policy in order to indict the President. Those same executives could just be removed and replaced by the President. Either way: federal prosecutors have almost zero recourse to indict a sitting President. This level of protection went away after they left office... until Trump v. United States.

The chances are high that a VP will defend/back their president.
K. And now, it won't even matter, because they're immune regardless. That's a material difference, no matter how much you want to pretend the ruling didn't change anything.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The DOJ, its executives appointed by the President, could change its policy in order to indict the President. Those same executives could just be removed and replaced by the President. Either way: federal prosecutors have almost zero recourse to indict a sitting President. This level of protection went away after they left office... until Trump v. United States.



K. And now, it won't even matter, because they're immune regardless. That's a material difference, no matter how much you want to pretend the ruling didn't change anything.
My point is that didn't really change anything if not even Nixon got arrested.

So in the instance that a president does something really bad and their VP doesn't pardon, then that comes into play. However, either of those is already unlikely on their own and both together is even more unlikely so why was it exaggerated on how awful the ruling was. Also, it is tied to presidential duties, which we don't know what will and will not be immune. The ruling might not even change anything, and if it does change something, that something has a rather low likelihood of occurring anyway.

I know this is novel for someone like you, but try actually reading the post rather than just paying half-attention while skimming it for a gotcha that you can't even be bothered to contextualize.

What you're referring to here is me saying - as a piece of evidence contesting the claim that Trump was without a support network - that Trump's support network was very loudly proclaiming - again, quite falsely - that his was a reign of unprecedented prosperity and his successor's was one of unprecedented hardship.

The point that you - in your typical overeagerness to be contrarian - have failed to understand is that this was a very frequent and widespread narrative that has been consistently signal boosted by politicians, pundits, and media outlets for years. And that is directly contrary to the implication that Trump was without meaningful allies in any of those channels, much less all of them.
I didn't say anything you said was wrong because that wasn't my point. My point was that the democrats gaslight on the same level (maybe a bit less or a bit more or about the same). You can't claim how bad another team is when you're team is in the same boat.

It's funny you listed Joe Rogan as a problem when he literally endorsed Bernie Sanders. The left has gone so bad that people are now "with" the right because they won't make things as bad at least, not that they are good, just not the most evil. Joe Rogan like any show where there's guests on is as good as the guest, and Joe Rogan is a pretty decent interviewer, much better than like say Adam Conover off-script. The left also kept yelling at Rogan for merely saying his opinion. Just on basic human nature, you think someone is gonna prefer the group constantly yelling and nagging him about how wrong and awful he is? The left had Joe Rogan, they fucked up and also gaslit him.