Well let's see. First hand experience here. I cannot afford health insurance. My brother cannot afford health insurance. So when I went to the hospital because of a bad and prolonged bout of diarrhea they charged me 1,200 dollars to tell me to drink plenty of fluids. (900 for the hospital time, 300 to see the doctor for 10 minutes). (paying this off at 30 dollars a month...) He woke up one morning with a bug stuck in his ear. 1,700 dollars. So when I broke my hand what do you think I did? That's right. I didn't go to the doctor. For 3-4 months I could not lift a thing. The first knuckle on my fore finger of my right hand still hurts when I make a fist too tightly and I suffered this injury over a year ago. I currently have some other health problems unresolved I won't get into. Long story short, great system, just fabulous.
I mean it's great that everyone banded together to help this girl out and saved both her livelihood and her dreams, but our medical system is severely messed up and for those of us who are not public faces, particularly talented or aren't just plain cute and fuzzy there is no bailout. Medical care, a basic necessity of life is treated like an amenity and those who might suffer ill effects of society's decisions (such as the pollution that can lead to cancer) are left to deal with those consequences on their own. It's a tragic irony that in a country with some of the richest people in the world others are left crossing their fingers hoping they won't get sick. And you can't say "Well get a job" because these matters affect lots of people. Pink Bean has a job. Insurers often refuse to pay, pocketing all the previous payments and leaving the "insured" holding the bag.
Zhukov, I'd love to hear about your country's system.
>To get healthcare, patients need insurance
>When patients go into hospital, insurance companies have to pay out (shock horror) and with private doctors demanding extortionate fees, this means insurance companies have to raise costs.
>With raised costs, less people get insurance
>With less people buying insurance, insurance companies need to raise prices to cover costs
etc etc...
Think of socialised healthcare in this way (because this is what it is):
>EVERYBODY pays into the same insurance company, meaning the single insurance company always has enough money to cover everybody's costs.
>As everybody is insured with the same company, hospitals are happy to treat first and as about payment later
>Where is the disadvantage?!
Now, I'll be the first to admit that the NHS is not perfect. But I would take the imperfect, wonderful and hopefully everlasting NHS over some monstrosity when a person's life is measured by how much money the insurance company will lose.
Health Care paid for the goverment is a good thing, as a Canadian I appriecieate it, but you must also accept that Health Care is a bottemless Pit the government will throw cash into, I know in Canada I think its somewhere around %50 of every tax dollar goes into healthcare and it only gets more expensive as new procedures are invented and then become covered by the goverment, after all does the government cover dental and eye care as well? Are abortions and sex changes necessary procedures, they are covered in Canada, If a new experimental surgery comes out that may help a person but is not proven %100 be covered. It is a difficult issue and their are legitamit reasons to argue that private health care could be cheaper and keep waiting times down but it is a complex issue.
Check out the US military's tricare, the problems the US people face with the current health care system seem minute when we can't even take care of our veterans with a Government ran Health Care System.
So drink water take some ibuprofen and drive on. (cookie for the reference)
Why? Well, basically only rich Americans can afford good health care. Thus, tons, tons of money goes into the US health system (to treat those rich people), including research and know-how. And the results of that research and know-how get exported later, so we, i.e. the rest of the world, can benefit from it.
You honestly think that? With private healthcare, there is no incentive to prevent diseases. Can't make money from a healthy person. So you get nice expensive drugs to cure you.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world continues to look for immunisations because it will save money for the taxpayer in the long run.
How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
The answer to these? Very, very few. A completely negligible amount. They just use the internet to seem bigger.
How many think gay is a choice?
No one I've ever heard of. However, there are some who believe that sexuality is more that just biology, and that there are strong psychological components to attraction and sexuality that we should also understand. I've never heard anyone say, in earnest, that they thought sexuality was a conscious choice. Saying you don't think it's entirely, universally, and irrevocably genetic is not the same as saying it's a choice--that's called a "false dichotomy," and I point it out because most of what you're saying is all about pushing false dichotomies.
You mean because a small number of people draw fantastical conclusions based on limited information filtered through a horribly biased perspective, and then over-apply those conclusions to the population at large? Yeah... I could see that.
"If done right" I heard a very liberal friend of mine say, "if Done right socialized medicine will work." In the same breathe she said the VA damn near killed her father.
America is incapable of "if done right" unless it involves making massive piles of cash. I've been to a Veteran's Administration Hospital one of the few completely Government owned healthcare systems in America. And it was terrible. There was no parking. If you don't come in an ambulance expect to wait 3 or more hours.
I told the nurse I had stomach pains. She asked if I had been to Iraq and I said yes. She asked if I felt sad or helpless anytime this week. I replied, "Well there was this one time I went to the VA with stomach pains and all they did was ask me stupid questions I felt pretty helpless then." I was immediately scheduled to meet with a therapist, and I still have not met my General Practitioner
Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.
In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.
Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).
Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.
You know, despite the horror stories you hear, a hospital cannot refuse treatment of an emergency on basis of payment, and if you cannot pay up front they will give you options to pay later or waive your bill if you can prove your emergency bill is unpayable. That being said, I'd rather be handed a bill today than wait six months in line at bare minimum for a hip replacement. Also, I'm surprised you support a system where the "rich" can also take advantage of government aid when they in no way need it.
Random baseless propaganda about waiting times aside, your preference to be billed over a socialist system I just can't understand. You do realise that the healthcare is covered by taxes, right? And that the richer the person, the more taxes they (are supposed to) pay? Thus basically forming a national health insurance system without any third party corporations taking their cut directly from your pocket?
Socialised care rocks; it's already means-adjusted, you're assumed to have it so don't have to prove anything, and if you break a limb you don't have to mortgage your house again to have the bone re-set. I honestly can't understand any argument against it, bar inferences made against the general inefficiency of government-run, noncompetitive services.
I'm amazed no one mentioned Michael Moore's movie "Sicko" yet. This movie might've been a "guyz, WTF?!" directed at Americans, but it's the best image us non-Americans can get about the healthcare system. And yes... WTF?!!! If you haven't seen it yet, do so now, it goes much deeper into the topic that we could ever go here on this forum.
So if there's any American here that has seen this movie, here's a question for you. Is it THAT BAD?!!
Based on nearly every person I've ever met here, there's a general lack of interest in politics unless people are convinced that their personal freedom is at stake. The only time my friends got interested in politics at all was the fervor that surrounded George W. Bush. While I wasn't a supporter, it's irritating to hear issues that people really don't care about get tossed around in conversation only because it allows them to check off another box on the side of their half-assedly adopted cause.
This was all happening while I was coming of age, so I can't really make any comment on the political climate of any time before then. I have noticed, though, that in America there is a large group of politically active people that base all of their opinions off of the rhetoric of political commentators, and they don't treat issues fairly. They're more likely to discuss issues in a way that make people listen, rather than accurately. I have never thought that I would hear as many deplorable accusations of nazism, racism and socialism as I hear lobbed at President Obama (not to mention claims that he is the antichrist--I mean seriously, is this what politics are becoming in America?).
I tend to only hear what other people hear, though, as I'd rather watch factual news over sensationalist political commentary. The only person I know that watches any political commentary is my mother, who is one of those despicable Glenn Beck/Alex Jones-ites who has no problem glossing over any logical gray-areas when there may be terrorists on the other side. Since every one else I know doesn't care, she's all I have to go on when it comes to those shows, as I'm not willing to risk shoving an ice pick up my nose by doing my own research on the subject. I'm sure the left-leaning political commentators are just as bad, as admittedly the anti-Bush rhetoric that I supported during the first stage of my political awareness did get out of hand. Say what you want about the man and his policies, but when you start taking cheap shots it just grinds away at your credibility.
Here is a video of what kinds of monsters these talking heads create. You can actually see them trying to remember what they've been taught about Palin and Obama, rather than their own opinions (which would presumably come off a bit more naturally).
Getting on topic here, there is what is called the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that was signed into law in 2010, which will purportedly make it more difficult for insurance companies to refuse pre-existing conditions or to drop policyholders when they get sick, as well as putting more mildly effective restrictions on the ways insurance companies spend their money or charge their policyholders.
The biggest gripe anybody has with this bill is the fact that it will penalize people ($695 per individual) for not purchasing health insurance, which is a step in the right direction to get people covered, but is still entirely wrong for forcing people in the first place. I'm a supporter of socialized health care, even before I was forced to pay anything based on whether or not I have insurance (and still won't have to pay anything til 2014, and that $695 figure from before isn't effective until 2016). I wouldn't mind putting my money towards something that would be as useful as healthcare, since there have been a few times in the last five to six years or so where my fiancee and I have debated whether or not we could afford a doctor's visit for a situation that genuinely warranted one. Plus, I wear glasses and she wears contacts, so it would be nice to get some relief from those costly items.
How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
The answer to these? Very, very few. A completely negligible amount. They just use the internet to seem bigger.
How many think gay is a choice?
No one I've ever heard of. However, there are some who believe that sexuality is more that just biology, and that there are strong psychological components to attraction and sexuality that we should also understand. I've never heard anyone say, in earnest, that they thought sexuality was a conscious choice. Saying you don't think it's entirely, universally, and irrevocably genetic is not the same as saying it's a choice--that's called a "false dichotomy," and I point it out because most of what you're saying is all about pushing false dichotomies.
You mean because a small number of people draw fantastical conclusions based on limited information filtered through a horribly biased perspective, and then over-apply those conclusions to the population at large? Yeah... I could see that.
there's a reason we have private health care. its cause in public (social) everyone gets treated. private makes it so that you odnt have to sit there with your guts hanging out of your belly while some idiot with a broken arm from trying to skate gets the attention. Whatever happened to her arm, it wasnt covered in insurance, and yeah, that sucks, but when you get insurance, you know that.
Social Healthcare is far from great, and most of the people in my college who have had to use the private healthcare system here enjoy it far more then their social ways tehy have at home. I've been told their home horror stories, and I wouldnt trade this healthcare system for anything. Does it need revamped? of course. But the basic structure is good. if you odnt have insurance, you still get treated. You sit in ER, they do your procedure (when its your time, so its a first come first serve social healthcare system), and you can either pay out right there, or sign up with a payment plan. Having to have been in the ER recently, its not that bad, and if you have insurance, all the better. If you dont, then you just sign up for a payment plan, and having seen them, they're not that bad, you just have to realize you're not going to have a lot of money for yourself, so you're going to go with less for a little bit.
Well for one thing people with more urgent conditions get treated faster soooo yeh, I've heard way more horror stories about private care, the poor being abandoned to die basically sums up that system
I just think you're assigning each of your complaints way more weight than they actually hold in the real world. You're also painting each group with a pretty broad and unfavorable brush--for instance, not everyone who thinks that global warming is being overstated thinks that it's a "hoax," or not everyone who believes in a supernatural Creation is "fundamentally religious."
You're reaching into a very small group, picking out the absolute worst example you can find, and claiming that represents the entire group. And then you're acting as though that small group makes up a major share of our population here. Neither of those is intellectually honest. That's all I'm getting at.
Yeah, it makes us seem cosmopolitan to be self-hating Americans. It's the cool new thing to be political hipsters, hating whatever is in the spotlight at any given moment. Luxembourg was so cool before everyone knew where it was, and all that. And hey, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously... but maybe dial it back a bit?
In Sweden:
"Hello, welcome! Come on in! what seems to be the problem? Oh? Nothing at all? Well, that's no problem at all. Come in anyway. It's nice in this hospital isn't it? It's your house as much as mine. You pay for it too, you know. Want some coffee?
Oh! Deary me! The old man looks like he is very ill. Help me get him into a sick-room and on a bed. There, there. Let's see what is wrong with you. Oh, my. We need a heart transplant and plastic surgery. We also need a blood transfusion and a new prosthetic arm and leg. Will you help me with these procedures? Thank you kindly. Let me ask; are you a doctor, or a surgeon, or a nurse at all? Oh! You're all of them? Thank heavens for that! Oh! You did all of the university courses just because? Well it is for free anyway. Let's start operating on this poor soul.
There, that wasn't so hard. What are you doing with the wallet? This isn't going to cost you a penny! There. Have a nice life and come back to us with 2 month intervals for free check-ups.
Isn't it a lovely day? Want another cup of coffee?"
Kind of. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. Free health care should be a given. That's why we should all pay taxes; to cover for our fellow men and women who fall ill and can't fend for themselves temporarily. What happened to solidarity?
Is that a bad word to you? Because to me, that's a sign of hope.
In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care.
Yeah, it'd be like if everyone had to have health insurance, only means-adjusted and comprehensive by default... which would be a fundamentally good thing. Hmm.
On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.
Or you could have a national insurance card or other form of citizenship identification. Then again, what do you do about all those illegals using your roads and police force - or are those costs negligible?
Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great.
Yeah, might want to re-think that one. Ok, to be fair, that is a common complaint aimed at government services, but honestly since the privatisation of the UK rail network, fares and delays have only gone up. I am not convinced AT ALL that privatisation does anything more than line the pockets of the corporations in charge at the expense of everyone else.
Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).
And what makes you think that there aren't pay-grades in national services? Honestly man, you should stop getting all your info from Fox.
Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need?
Of course, Tom, Dick and Nancy also contributed to their own care, each others' care and any potential care you might need. Guess what - that's what insurance is about, only with socialised healthcare there's no company trying to turn a profit off of other people's mis-fortune.
Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.
What about helping your neighbor? The strong protecting the weak? Not exploiting the vulnerable? If you honestly only care about yourself that much, then maybe the safety net of comprehensive healthcare for less than your current shitty, back-stabbing insurance company is charging you would appeal when you fall and break an arm, catch pneumonia, get shot by one of your fellow self-centred countrymen or any one of a million different medical issues that would see you unable to earn for your family, unable to save for a house - and unable to pay your damn hospital bills.
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