USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

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epialesofaergia

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Based on nearly every person I've ever met here, there's a general lack of interest in politics unless people are convinced that their personal freedom is at stake. The only time my friends got interested in politics at all was the fervor that surrounded George W. Bush. While I wasn't a supporter, it's irritating to hear issues that people really don't care about get tossed around in conversation only because it allows them to check off another box on the side of their half-assedly adopted cause.

This was all happening while I was coming of age, so I can't really make any comment on the political climate of any time before then. I have noticed, though, that in America there is a large group of politically active people that base all of their opinions off of the rhetoric of political commentators, and they don't treat issues fairly. They're more likely to discuss issues in a way that make people listen, rather than accurately. I have never thought that I would hear as many deplorable accusations of nazism, racism and socialism as I hear lobbed at President Obama (not to mention claims that he is the antichrist--I mean seriously, is this what politics are becoming in America?).

I tend to only hear what other people hear, though, as I'd rather watch factual news over sensationalist political commentary. The only person I know that watches any political commentary is my mother, who is one of those despicable Glenn Beck/Alex Jones-ites who has no problem glossing over any logical gray-areas when there may be terrorists on the other side. Since every one else I know doesn't care, she's all I have to go on when it comes to those shows, as I'm not willing to risk shoving an ice pick up my nose by doing my own research on the subject. I'm sure the left-leaning political commentators are just as bad, as admittedly the anti-Bush rhetoric that I supported during the first stage of my political awareness did get out of hand. Say what you want about the man and his policies, but when you start taking cheap shots it just grinds away at your credibility.

Here is a video of what kinds of monsters these talking heads create. You can actually see them trying to remember what they've been taught about Palin and Obama, rather than their own opinions (which would presumably come off a bit more naturally).


Getting on topic here, there is what is called the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that was signed into law in 2010, which will purportedly make it more difficult for insurance companies to refuse pre-existing conditions or to drop policyholders when they get sick, as well as putting more mildly effective restrictions on the ways insurance companies spend their money or charge their policyholders.

The biggest gripe anybody has with this bill is the fact that it will penalize people ($695 per individual) for not purchasing health insurance, which is a step in the right direction to get people covered, but is still entirely wrong for forcing people in the first place. I'm a supporter of socialized health care, even before I was forced to pay anything based on whether or not I have insurance (and still won't have to pay anything til 2014, and that $695 figure from before isn't effective until 2016). I wouldn't mind putting my money towards something that would be as useful as healthcare, since there have been a few times in the last five to six years or so where my fiancee and I have debated whether or not we could afford a doctor's visit for a situation that genuinely warranted one. Plus, I wear glasses and she wears contacts, so it would be nice to get some relief from those costly items.
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Dastardly said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
American here.
Same here. Let's address some of your concerns:

How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
The answer to these? Very, very few. A completely negligible amount. They just use the internet to seem bigger.

How many think gay is a choice?

No one I've ever heard of. However, there are some who believe that sexuality is more that just biology, and that there are strong psychological components to attraction and sexuality that we should also understand. I've never heard anyone say, in earnest, that they thought sexuality was a conscious choice. Saying you don't think it's entirely, universally, and irrevocably genetic is not the same as saying it's a choice--that's called a "false dichotomy," and I point it out because most of what you're saying is all about pushing false dichotomies.

This country is completely idiotic.
You mean because a small number of people draw fantastical conclusions based on limited information filtered through a horribly biased perspective, and then over-apply those conclusions to the population at large? Yeah... I could see that.
Okay, I'll admit completely idiotic is hyperbole.
 

Macrobstar

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emeraldrafael said:
And?

there's a reason we have private health care. its cause in public (social) everyone gets treated. private makes it so that you odnt have to sit there with your guts hanging out of your belly while some idiot with a broken arm from trying to skate gets the attention. Whatever happened to her arm, it wasnt covered in insurance, and yeah, that sucks, but when you get insurance, you know that.

Social Healthcare is far from great, and most of the people in my college who have had to use the private healthcare system here enjoy it far more then their social ways tehy have at home. I've been told their home horror stories, and I wouldnt trade this healthcare system for anything. Does it need revamped? of course. But the basic structure is good. if you odnt have insurance, you still get treated. You sit in ER, they do your procedure (when its your time, so its a first come first serve social healthcare system), and you can either pay out right there, or sign up with a payment plan. Having to have been in the ER recently, its not that bad, and if you have insurance, all the better. If you dont, then you just sign up for a payment plan, and having seen them, they're not that bad, you just have to realize you're not going to have a lot of money for yourself, so you're going to go with less for a little bit.
Well for one thing people with more urgent conditions get treated faster soooo yeh, I've heard way more horror stories about private care, the poor being abandoned to die basically sums up that system
 

Dastardly

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ReincarnatedFTP said:
Okay, I'll admit completely idiotic is hyperbole.
I just think you're assigning each of your complaints way more weight than they actually hold in the real world. You're also painting each group with a pretty broad and unfavorable brush--for instance, not everyone who thinks that global warming is being overstated thinks that it's a "hoax," or not everyone who believes in a supernatural Creation is "fundamentally religious."

You're reaching into a very small group, picking out the absolute worst example you can find, and claiming that represents the entire group. And then you're acting as though that small group makes up a major share of our population here. Neither of those is intellectually honest. That's all I'm getting at.

Yeah, it makes us seem cosmopolitan to be self-hating Americans. It's the cool new thing to be political hipsters, hating whatever is in the spotlight at any given moment. Luxembourg was so cool before everyone knew where it was, and all that. And hey, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously... but maybe dial it back a bit?
 

KaizokuouHasu

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In Sweden:
"Hello, welcome! Come on in! what seems to be the problem? Oh? Nothing at all? Well, that's no problem at all. Come in anyway. It's nice in this hospital isn't it? It's your house as much as mine. You pay for it too, you know. Want some coffee?

Oh! Deary me! The old man looks like he is very ill. Help me get him into a sick-room and on a bed. There, there. Let's see what is wrong with you. Oh, my. We need a heart transplant and plastic surgery. We also need a blood transfusion and a new prosthetic arm and leg. Will you help me with these procedures? Thank you kindly. Let me ask; are you a doctor, or a surgeon, or a nurse at all? Oh! You're all of them? Thank heavens for that! Oh! You did all of the university courses just because? Well it is for free anyway. Let's start operating on this poor soul.

There, that wasn't so hard. What are you doing with the wallet? This isn't going to cost you a penny! There. Have a nice life and come back to us with 2 month intervals for free check-ups.

Isn't it a lovely day? Want another cup of coffee?"

Kind of. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. Free health care should be a given. That's why we should all pay taxes; to cover for our fellow men and women who fall ill and can't fend for themselves temporarily. What happened to solidarity?
 

Wicky_42

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dehboy said:
Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.
Is that a bad word to you? Because to me, that's a sign of hope.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care.
Yeah, it'd be like if everyone had to have health insurance, only means-adjusted and comprehensive by default... which would be a fundamentally good thing. Hmm.
On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.
Or you could have a national insurance card or other form of citizenship identification. Then again, what do you do about all those illegals using your roads and police force - or are those costs negligible?

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great.
In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt.
Yeah, might want to re-think that one. Ok, to be fair, that is a common complaint aimed at government services, but honestly since the privatisation of the UK rail network, fares and delays have only gone up. I am not convinced AT ALL that privatisation does anything more than line the pockets of the corporations in charge at the expense of everyone else.
Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).
And what makes you think that there aren't pay-grades in national services? Honestly man, you should stop getting all your info from Fox.

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need?
Of course, Tom, Dick and Nancy also contributed to their own care, each others' care and any potential care you might need. Guess what - that's what insurance is about, only with socialised healthcare there's no company trying to turn a profit off of other people's mis-fortune.
Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.
What about helping your neighbor? The strong protecting the weak? Not exploiting the vulnerable? If you honestly only care about yourself that much, then maybe the safety net of comprehensive healthcare for less than your current shitty, back-stabbing insurance company is charging you would appeal when you fall and break an arm, catch pneumonia, get shot by one of your fellow self-centred countrymen or any one of a million different medical issues that would see you unable to earn for your family, unable to save for a house - and unable to pay your damn hospital bills.
 

Scrubiii

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Dense_Electric said:
No country anywhere has free healthcare, you just pay for it now instead of later. There's a reason taxes in the United States are among the lowest in the world, while medical bills here are through the roof. Though I should point out that Allison's insurance (you know, that she paid for) backed out, so if we're going to have some government intervention it should really be in making sure insurance companies don't do clearly illegal things like that.

In principle though, I don't have a problem with socialized healthcare. If the government wants to run a program, great. What I have a problem with is mandatory socialized healthcare. If someone wants to go with a private insurance provider instead of the government option, they should have the right to do that.

The other potential issue is that some operations have absurdly long waiting lists, so if you get backed up for two years for something that's going to kill you in six months, you're as shit out of luck there as if you get slammed with a $50,000 bill here. Basically you can die because you couldn't afford it, or you can die because you couldn't get the operation in time. Take your pick.
Some operations do have long waiting lists, but none of them are operations for things that will kill you in six months. Here in Britain for example, you might have to wait a month to get a wart treated, or an extra few days for an X-ray on a potentially broken wrist, but if you need a heart bypass, you'll get one.
 

Ghengis John

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dehboy said:
Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.
"A bunch of liberals" I think that says everything right there. Your labeling people's opinions is your own conscious decision, to choose not to give honest thought to their opinions or to the situation. Why? Because that would inconvenience you. In your conscience or in your wallet. And as Mark Twain once said, the second one often stops people from listening to the first.

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.
There are a thousand reasons why. Ranging from the logical: Entitlement programs prevent disenfranchisement improving governmental stability and lowering crime. To the philosophical: "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself." What you should ask yourself is why as a hard working American can you not afford a house. Do you know how many hard working Americans can not afford healthcare? The girl in question is educated and has a job. Think about that.
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Hammeroj said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
America had no reason to go to war in Iraq. Iraq did not attack us and was not involved in 9/11. The 9/11 conspiracy theory is not necessary to see that.
As much as I disagree with lots of what the U.S. does, there have been many reasons to go to war with Iraq.

Okay, let me rephrase what I meant.

There are many reasons to go to war with a lot of countries. After 9/11 Iraq was not a country that posed a threat to the US.
 

Dana22

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Not PvP Flagged said:
Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.
Yep, but dont forget that those people studied/trained/learned 15-20 years to do that. They deserve bigger compensation in wages, then uncle bob who never went to college and fixes refrigerators.
 

emeraldrafael

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Wicky_42 said:
On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.
Or you could have a national insurance card or other form of citizenship identification. Then again, what do you do about all those illegals using your roads ...
You dont really Pay for a road. I mean, you pay taxes on it for the maintance, and occasionally a toll road, but to actually charge someone for using a road, that would mean that every connecting intersection would involve a toll post, and no country would do that.
 

Scrubiii

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ReincarnatedFTP said:
How many think global warming is a hoax?
There is actually extremely strong evidence that Global Warming, (or at least global warming as a result of human actions), is completely false.
 

dehboy

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I sign of hope? Don't make me laugh. I'm all for fiscal responsibility. Everyone made a stink when Bush ran America into debt (and rightly so). How come when Obama's "change" cost America WAAAAAY more than Bush, no one cares?

It is rather funny that all liberals think that any point of conservatism must have come from the brain washing company called "Fox." I care about the next person as much as everyone else, but I work hard to provide to myself. Are you too lazy to provide for yourself?
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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May 15, 2010
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Our system is expensive (both for insurance and medical costs) because of many different factors. Malpractice suits force M.D.'s to run more tests than is necessary for CYA purposes, which in turn causes more cost to the patient. Medicare/Medicaid insurance policy forms which are required by law for physician offices to fill out are complex and time-consuming red-tape that forces them to hire extra help to wade through the BS (thus why not all physicians cover Medicare/Medicaid). Health insurance is not available at the national level, its done state-by-state by law which raises the cost. These aren't all the factors, but they're a major part. And the ideas that have been laid forth to reduce healthcare costs (Tort reform, nationwide coverage) have been summarily rejected in favor of a government run healthcare idea despite the US Government lawmakers who write such laws having little-to-no experience or education on healthcare. We don't have a perfect system, but socializing medicine in the US isn't an answer to the general problems we face. Perhaps people should read up on the cost of a doctor's visit prior to the popularity of malpractice lawsuits in the US and how that affected our current state of being.
Also, ever bother to check and see how much it costs to become a doctor in the US (College fees for 8 or more years of school) and how that relates to the cost of medical care?
 

RaikuFA

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something like this happened near me. my brothers girlfriends mothers boyfriend(whew!) went to the hospital cause he was coughing up blood. doctor didnt even look at him and just sent him home. he was found dead later that day

yeah our healthcare can save a nutjob who shouldve died at the first heart attack yet wont even let a doctor look at a average joe whos coughing up a vampires snack

our health can help you, but only if you have money
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Dastardly said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
American here.
Same here. Let's address some of your concerns:

How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
The answer to these? Very, very few. A completely negligible amount. They just use the internet to seem bigger.

How many think gay is a choice?

No one I've ever heard of. However, there are some who believe that sexuality is more that just biology, and that there are strong psychological components to attraction and sexuality that we should also understand. I've never heard anyone say, in earnest, that they thought sexuality was a conscious choice. Saying you don't think it's entirely, universally, and irrevocably genetic is not the same as saying it's a choice--that's called a "false dichotomy," and I point it out because most of what you're saying is all about pushing false dichotomies.

This country is completely idiotic.
You mean because a small number of people draw fantastical conclusions based on limited information filtered through a horribly biased perspective, and then over-apply those conclusions to the population at large? Yeah... I could see that.

You don't read very many polls, do you? Here's a fun thing for you to do. Go visit the National Science Board's website and read their annual "Science and Engineering Indicators" reports. Pay particular attention to Chapter 7 - Science and Technology: Public Attitudes and Understanding.

Oh, you can also use Google to search for various polls conducted by places like Rasmussen or Gallup to find out the various percentages. Some are indeed quite small, ~5%. Others are in the 20-40% range. And then the religious population of the country is over 85%, so that really does make the population of people who are quite fond of bullshit beliefs (every religion has some) the overwhelming majority.

Also, I would like to say gay is hardly a choice. You can argue about minor details but at the end of the day you don't really choose to be a homosexual.
 

Grimbold

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Nov 19, 2009
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She would have been unable to use her arms and the insurance did not pay?
What happened? Did she chop them off herself?
 

Scrubiii

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Dana22 said:
Not PvP Flagged said:
Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.
Yep, but dont forget that those people studied/trained/learned 15-20 years to do that. They deserve bigger compensation in wages, then uncle bob who never went to college and fixes refrigerators.
Britain has a socialised health system, but doctors here still get paid a very large wage. Public healthcare does not result in a reduction of staff wages.