USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

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Chibz

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I'd like to point out that if my sister & I lived in the US we'd be either...

A) Up to our neck in debt
B) Paying ridiculous fees for health insurance as adults
C) Dead. Very, very dead.

Smart money's on dead. We had awful health growing up, and I was prone to getting myself badly injured.

SageRuffin said:
In short, by and large the American people said "FUCK that."
"Fuck being able to get health care that is affordable. When we get sick, we want to have crippling debt!"

Nieroshai said:
I'll pass, but only if you completely ignore the draconian laws of the Middle East.
Yes. I ignore the middle east on this issue, mostly because of how remarkably backward the middle east is.

We're talking about the developed world, not third-world shit holes.
 

Moromillas

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ELD3RGoD said:
Explain the Australian system.
Basically, if you're in deep shit you get first dibs. Then two other types, public and private. Public you gotta wait in line. Private you gotta fork over the dough. You can also get insurance for private. That's my very basic understanding of it.
 

Ren3004

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Jul 22, 2009
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That system sounds completely broken. Especially when you consider that those without insurance are probably the poor, who have a whole lot of factors contributing to disease. Or that those who have chronic illness and need more health care are those who are gonna have to pay more for their insurance.

I'm not sure about how much is true, but medical shows (like Scrubs) picture doctors having to trick the system to actually treat their patients.

This, and the "I'll sue you if you so much as pinch me" mentality are the two reasons I wouldn't like to work as a doctor in the USA.
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Nieroshai said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
American here.
It pisses me right the fuck off.
America is not even really too much of a first world nation.
I'll be proud of America gay marriage is legalized, the war on drugs is ended or severely curtailed, we're not in everybody's overseas engagements, Christianity (or any religion for that matter) isn't enforcing moral laws or playing a big part in politics such as abortion or countering teaching fucking science (evolution,global warming) in school, morons aren't voting based on "hurr muslims commies immigrants jesus" , labor is treated better and not like serfs, the fourth amendment gets some respect, and we have single payer healthcare or some form of UHC. Our culture is filled with "violence good sex drugs bad".

Also,
How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
How many think gay is a choice?
How many believe Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, and alien abductions are real?
How many think blacks are inferior, Jews are inferior, women are inferior, Hispanics are inferior?
How many are fundamentally religious?
How many think "evolution is just a theory" is a valid criticism?

This country is completely idiotic.
You name things that are worldwide, not purely American. A large number of people believe 9/11 was a hoax because they want an excuse to believe America had no reason to go to war
Okay, no no no.
That is not an excuse.
America had no reason to go to war in Iraq. Iraq did not attack us and was not involved in 9/11. The 9/11 conspiracy theory is not necessary to see that.

Also, I didn't say any of that last part. I'm singling out Americans because this is a thread about America's healthcare and I noted other issues I had with America in my post.
This is about America, not the world.
 

emeraldrafael

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And?

there's a reason we have private health care. its cause in public (social) everyone gets treated. private makes it so that you odnt have to sit there with your guts hanging out of your belly while some idiot with a broken arm from trying to skate gets the attention. Whatever happened to her arm, it wasnt covered in insurance, and yeah, that sucks, but when you get insurance, you know that.

Social Healthcare is far from great, and most of the people in my college who have had to use the private healthcare system here enjoy it far more then their social ways tehy have at home. I've been told their home horror stories, and I wouldnt trade this healthcare system for anything. Does it need revamped? of course. But the basic structure is good. if you odnt have insurance, you still get treated. You sit in ER, they do your procedure (when its your time, so its a first come first serve social healthcare system), and you can either pay out right there, or sign up with a payment plan. Having to have been in the ER recently, its not that bad, and if you have insurance, all the better. If you dont, then you just sign up for a payment plan, and having seen them, they're not that bad, you just have to realize you're not going to have a lot of money for yourself, so you're going to go with less for a little bit.
 

Not PvP Flagged

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Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.
 

Dastardly

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Zhukov said:
(The dreaded wall-o-text lurks below. I tried to keep it as concise and readable as possible. No, really, I did.)
Let me provide you some insight, from someone who has experienced both kinds of systems. First, some pertinent background info:

I have Crohn's Disease--it's a chronic autoimmune disorder that basically means my immune system attacks a portion of my small intestine. That's very oversimplified, but it's painful, lifelong, and the medication is pretty expensive.

I grew up in a Marine Corps home. That means we had access to no-cost Navy medical facilities, just one of the services our government provides for its soldiers and their families. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it. However...

I've witnessed firsthand what this sort of medicine can do (and what it can't). Every member of my family has had a "close call," and several friends of the family have died as a result of the botched care provided. It's not that the doctors were uneducated or negligent--that could happen anywhere. It's that they have two responsibilities that change the way they approach treatment:

1. The responsibility to keep cost down.
2. The responsibility to get each case pushed through, because the line gets backed up fast.

As a result, a five-year-old girl with a ruptured appendix was diagnosed with the flu that was going around. She died. Two mothers-to-be with "tubal" pregnancies (an irregularity that basically causes the embryo to implant in the Fallopian tube, rather than the uterus) not only lot the babies, but died because the correct precautions weren't taken. My mother nearly bled out from the inside because of a slipped IUD, which they wrote off as "the flu that was going around." Another woman did die when she bled out after a laproscopic procedure, because they didn't keep her overnight for observation. When I first started showing symptoms of Crohn's, they ruled out Crohn's before they even did any tests, and I went for nearly a year untreated. This was all in just one of the hospitals, within two years.

But it's not just one bad hospital. One more story: My parents' first child was arriving very early. It was not expected that she would be born alive, so the doctors did not prepare for a live birth. She was born alive, and there was a delay getting her the proper care for a premature baby. She died a week later.

I know it would be easy to write this off as just "bad doctors doing stupid things." But look into cases like this, and you can see the financial concerns behind it all. These hospitals are crowded, because people want to use them. And they've still got to come in under budget, when all is said and done--it's just a different budget.

I will also say, when you're hiring doctors... well, if they know they're getting paid a lot less, you will be more likely to settle for not-the-best doctors, because they'll settle for not-the-best salaries, won't they? So finances even play a part in the negligence, when you get right down to it. Additionally, the tendency is to start with the cheapest tests first, only working your way up if it seems absolutely necessary (rather than eliminating the most dangerous problems first).

These hospitals are great for routine things. If you actually have "that flu that's going around," you're in luck! They're equipped to efficiently handle all the routine problems you can throw at them... but the second there's a hitch? Or the second there's a financial shortcut?

And this isn't just America. Speak with some people from other "socialized medicine" countries. Not the routine patients, but the ones with complications. You're going to hear the same kinds of stories, because money still matters, unfortunate as that might be.

_________

Aside: Now, I'll also concede that socialized medicine is a problem here because of our national culture. Half of the nation doesn't want to pay for the health problems of those that choose to smoke, do drugs, and get fat. The other half of the nation doesn't want the government telling them they can't smoke, do drugs, or get fat. Both are a result of our fiercely individualistic culture, and our tendency to put our perceived rights over those of others.

There's also our national aversion to taxes. As someone who works in education, I know how important taxes are. We haven't had a pay increase in five years, and we've in fact taken massive cuts and had to spend more out-of-pocket just to keep things from falling apart. Socialized medicine, like education, takes real money, and that means higher taxes. People don't want to pay them.

So, yeah, we've got some problems, too. And the current system, with its hidden costs that catch you after you've received treatment, or all the caveats and exceptions insurance companies throw around... yeah, it's far from perfect. But so's the alternative.

As someone with an expensive, painful disease, I still say that I prefer a system in which my treatment isn't handled by, for all intents and purposes, the "lowest bidder." Just like the battle between capitalism and socialism, the "free market" actually exists somewhere between the two.
 

Omey

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Apr 8, 2011
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if medical college got cheaper ,dont you think it will change doctors' attitudes a bit when it comes to charging people??
If education were cheaper you could hope that doctors aren't as big scumbags when it comes to taking your money.

In India,where I'm from doctors have to complete practice for 2 years in rural areas where they treat poor people who cant afford urban quality treatments.
How difficult will be to implement something like that in your country?Is it already there?
Compulsory social service before your degree?
Seems like a good idea to me
 

bob-2000

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I know that it's awful. The republicans generate lies and fear about healthcare just because they'd rather have good people suffer than pay their damn taxes. Just one of a plethora of injustices in American society today.
 

Ghengis John

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Zhukov said:
What do you people think of this system? Do you want to defend it? Is there something I am missing here?)
Well let's see. First hand experience here. I cannot afford health insurance. My brother cannot afford health insurance. So when I went to the hospital because of a bad and prolonged bout of diarrhea they charged me 1,200 dollars to tell me to drink plenty of fluids. (900 for the hospital time, 300 to see the doctor for 10 minutes). (paying this off at 30 dollars a month...) He woke up one morning with a bug stuck in his ear. 1,700 dollars. So when I broke my hand what do you think I did? That's right. I didn't go to the doctor. For 3-4 months I could not lift a thing. The first knuckle on my fore finger of my right hand still hurts when I make a fist too tightly and I suffered this injury over a year ago. I currently have some other health problems unresolved I won't get into. Long story short, great system, just fabulous.

I mean it's great that everyone banded together to help this girl out and saved both her livelihood and her dreams, but our medical system is severely messed up and for those of us who are not public faces, particularly talented or aren't just plain cute and fuzzy there is no bailout. Medical care, a basic necessity of life is treated like an amenity and those who might suffer ill effects of society's decisions (such as the pollution that can lead to cancer) are left to deal with those consequences on their own. It's a tragic irony that in a country with some of the richest people in the world others are left crossing their fingers hoping they won't get sick. And you can't say "Well get a job" because these matters affect lots of people. Pink Bean has a job. Insurers often refuse to pay, pocketing all the previous payments and leaving the "insured" holding the bag.

Zhukov, I'd love to hear about your country's system.
 

Bebus

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Feb 12, 2010
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Why American system is broken:

>To get healthcare, patients need insurance
>When patients go into hospital, insurance companies have to pay out (shock horror) and with private doctors demanding extortionate fees, this means insurance companies have to raise costs.
>With raised costs, less people get insurance
>With less people buying insurance, insurance companies need to raise prices to cover costs

etc etc...

Think of socialised healthcare in this way (because this is what it is):

>EVERYBODY pays into the same insurance company, meaning the single insurance company always has enough money to cover everybody's costs.
>As everybody is insured with the same company, hospitals are happy to treat first and as about payment later
>Where is the disadvantage?!

Now, I'll be the first to admit that the NHS is not perfect. But I would take the imperfect, wonderful and hopefully everlasting NHS over some monstrosity when a person's life is measured by how much money the insurance company will lose.
 

coolkirb

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Health Care paid for the goverment is a good thing, as a Canadian I appriecieate it, but you must also accept that Health Care is a bottemless Pit the government will throw cash into, I know in Canada I think its somewhere around %50 of every tax dollar goes into healthcare and it only gets more expensive as new procedures are invented and then become covered by the goverment, after all does the government cover dental and eye care as well? Are abortions and sex changes necessary procedures, they are covered in Canada, If a new experimental surgery comes out that may help a person but is not proven %100 be covered. It is a difficult issue and their are legitamit reasons to argue that private health care could be cheaper and keep waiting times down but it is a complex issue.
 

Tsaba

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Oct 6, 2009
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Zhukov said:
Check out the US military's tricare, the problems the US people face with the current health care system seem minute when we can't even take care of our veterans with a Government ran Health Care System.

So drink water take some ibuprofen and drive on. (cookie for the reference)
 

Bebus

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Sgt. Sykes said:
Why? Well, basically only rich Americans can afford good health care. Thus, tons, tons of money goes into the US health system (to treat those rich people), including research and know-how. And the results of that research and know-how get exported later, so we, i.e. the rest of the world, can benefit from it.
You honestly think that? With private healthcare, there is no incentive to prevent diseases. Can't make money from a healthy person. So you get nice expensive drugs to cure you.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world continues to look for immunisations because it will save money for the taxpayer in the long run.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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ReincarnatedFTP said:
American here.
Same here. Let's address some of your concerns:

How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
The answer to these? Very, very few. A completely negligible amount. They just use the internet to seem bigger.

How many think gay is a choice?

No one I've ever heard of. However, there are some who believe that sexuality is more that just biology, and that there are strong psychological components to attraction and sexuality that we should also understand. I've never heard anyone say, in earnest, that they thought sexuality was a conscious choice. Saying you don't think it's entirely, universally, and irrevocably genetic is not the same as saying it's a choice--that's called a "false dichotomy," and I point it out because most of what you're saying is all about pushing false dichotomies.

This country is completely idiotic.
You mean because a small number of people draw fantastical conclusions based on limited information filtered through a horribly biased perspective, and then over-apply those conclusions to the population at large? Yeah... I could see that.
 

psijac

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"If done right" I heard a very liberal friend of mine say, "if Done right socialized medicine will work." In the same breathe she said the VA damn near killed her father.

America is incapable of "if done right" unless it involves making massive piles of cash. I've been to a Veteran's Administration Hospital one of the few completely Government owned healthcare systems in America. And it was terrible. There was no parking. If you don't come in an ambulance expect to wait 3 or more hours.

I told the nurse I had stomach pains. She asked if I had been to Iraq and I said yes. She asked if I felt sad or helpless anytime this week. I replied, "Well there was this one time I went to the VA with stomach pains and all they did was ask me stupid questions I felt pretty helpless then." I was immediately scheduled to meet with a therapist, and I still have not met my General Practitioner
 

dehboy

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Dec 21, 2009
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Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.
 

Wicky_42

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Nieroshai said:
You know, despite the horror stories you hear, a hospital cannot refuse treatment of an emergency on basis of payment, and if you cannot pay up front they will give you options to pay later or waive your bill if you can prove your emergency bill is unpayable. That being said, I'd rather be handed a bill today than wait six months in line at bare minimum for a hip replacement. Also, I'm surprised you support a system where the "rich" can also take advantage of government aid when they in no way need it.
Random baseless propaganda about waiting times aside, your preference to be billed over a socialist system I just can't understand. You do realise that the healthcare is covered by taxes, right? And that the richer the person, the more taxes they (are supposed to) pay? Thus basically forming a national health insurance system without any third party corporations taking their cut directly from your pocket?

Socialised care rocks; it's already means-adjusted, you're assumed to have it so don't have to prove anything, and if you break a limb you don't have to mortgage your house again to have the bone re-set. I honestly can't understand any argument against it, bar inferences made against the general inefficiency of government-run, noncompetitive services.
 

karamazovnew

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Apr 4, 2011
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I'm amazed no one mentioned Michael Moore's movie "Sicko" yet. This movie might've been a "guyz, WTF?!" directed at Americans, but it's the best image us non-Americans can get about the healthcare system. And yes... WTF?!!! If you haven't seen it yet, do so now, it goes much deeper into the topic that we could ever go here on this forum.

So if there's any American here that has seen this movie, here's a question for you. Is it THAT BAD?!!