USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

[142753869]

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-06/62906280.jpg

Look at the second graph, the average cost per person for health care is the highest in the world. Nearly twice that of for example the neighboring country Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Yet Canadians live 2.4 years longer. In fact in almost all European countries people live longer.

Off course health care is not the sole contributer to life expectancy but I don't think I'm out of line when I say that the US health care system does not work well and reforms are long overdue.

 

[Noodle Pritchard]

Being english we all just throw our money into one big pot for everyone.... I mean its not like youd WANT to fake to broken arms so everyone sort of helps everyone out. Its like charity for all and plus its always there if you needs it, you get given healthcare without having to worry about a bill. So yea to keep American bashing down i think they could do with a better system ( Im not saying the british one is.)

 

[Char-Nobyl]

So... I'm guessing that everyone here has heard about the medical dramas involving the artist of the Escapist's own Extra Credits show [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/111418-Extra-Credits-Artist-Amazed-at-Fan-Support]. Long story short, she sustained injury to her shoulders. Quite a lot of injury. If untreated, she could lose the use of her arms. (Just take a brief moment to dwell on the various delightful implications of not being able to use your own arms.) Now, in order to receive the required treatments, she had to come up with a large amount of money. Somewhere around $20,000 USD. No, that's not a typo. Yes, we're talking one thousand dollars, twenty times over.

Yes...presumably because it's a very complicated and expensive procedure. Medical treatment isn't expensive because doctors like to gouge prices. That's a tremendous amount of money for most people, I won't deny that, but the point still stands.

And just to make it all better, her private medical insurance refused to pay out. (What's that? An insurance company weaseling out of having to pony up the cash? Well, I never... who would have thought, eh?)

I'm pretty sure use of the word "chronic" explains why the insurance company was "weaseling out of having to pony up the cash." For most insurance plans, that isn't "weaseling" in any way, shape, or form. If you buy life insurance, it doesn't pay out if your house burns down. There's separate insurance for that. Similarly, preexisting conditions (read: chronic) are very often excluded from insurance plans, and not without reason.

Thus, assuming I'm reading this correctly, they weren't "weaseling" their way out of anything. They simply weren't paying for something that they'd already established they wouldn't be paying for.

But hang on one second. Let me just back up a few sentences. A person was expected to produce $20,000 in order to receive medical treatment for an injury that would prevent her from earning a living and drastically reduce her quality of life.

Surgeries aren't priced according to how important they are to the patient. They're priced according to the labor, material, personnel, etc that are required for the surgery to go off without a hitch.

America, just... what the fuck?

[/quote]
Welcome to the inevitable dark side of capitalism.

See, here in Australia, what with our evil communist government health system, we occasionally like to tell silly campfire horror stories about the state of health care in the US. Y'know, tales about that terrible place where you can get hit by a car and hospital staff will refuse to put you back together unless you throw wads of money or medical insurance forms at them.

*facepalm* When you say that you're trying to approach an issue impartially, it's that sort of thing that makes the claim look rather...untrue.

I never really knew what to think about these stories. And, quite frankly, I didn't particularly care because hey, why would I? That mess is an entire Pacific Ocean away. But this whole business with Extra Credits and the injury of the Pink Bean seems to suggest that those stories were disquieting close to the truth.

Similarly, Christopher Reeve didn't do much of anything for paralysis victims until he was paralyzed himself. This isn't an uncommon phenomenon.

And your hypothetical "lying bleeding and dying on the doorstep of a hospital while the staff laughs at your plight" is somewhat of a far cry from what we've been looking at here.

Some months back there was talk of the system being changed under the Obama administration. Last I heard it was still in the early stages, it seemed to mostly consist of a lot of people running around yelling something about socialism. Did that end up going anywhere?

Yes, because unlike the rest of the world, in America, the small number of high-profile morons that get on the news are perfect representations of the general populace.

So, anyway... is there a point to all this text? Well... no, not really. I guess I'm just a bit surprised that such a system would exist in a nation that likes to hold itself up as the epitome of the developed world, and not entirely without reason. Also, I would really like to hear from some of the many American escapists. What do you people think of this system? Do you want to defend it? Is there something I am missing here?

Well, I already went over the whole 'preexisting condition' thing above, but aside from that, I genuinely wouldn't mind universal healthcare, even if I'm part of the group that wouldn't benefit from it. Most likely I've come across as rather cold, but I think that situations like this really ought not to happen in an ideal world. It'll take some doing, but I think we can pull off a few changes for the better.

PPS. Oh yeah, and another thing. I know it's a bit tricky given the nature of the topic, but can we please try to keep the USA-bashing within reasonable bounds? Yeah, I know they pull some immensely stupid shit on occasion, but, well... don't we all?

I don't think it's even that. Most of the world has a few types of people that news outlets consistently portray, largely because their readers expect it, and it's easy to play to stereotypes. America has Cold War fixated morons, the Middle East has Muslim extremists, France has rioting, etc.

 

[neonsword13-ops]

You know what they say. Money makes America go 'round.

(I like it here but there are just too many idiots running this place)

 

[Dana22]

Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.

Yep, but dont forget that those people studied/trained/learned 15-20 years to do that. They deserve bigger compensation in wages, then uncle bob who never went to college and fixes refrigerators.

Britain has a socialised health system, but doctors here still get paid a very large wage. Public healthcare does not result in a reduction of staff wages.

But someone has to pay it. YOU are doing it right now, you might actually never visit a hospital in your entire life, but you are still paying for it.

 

[Mr_Paisley]

Don't judge an entire system on one event.
Quite frankly, I'm not very happy about our system. But not because I support government health care. I don't. I'm unhappy because of all the restrictions put on insurance companies and hospitals so it cost an arm and a leg To do anything.

What kind of restrictions are on health care companies and hospitals? Are they the same restrictions for both? Would NOT having such restrictions make it possible for them to pay up when they're called upon? And do you really think, that with out these "restrictions", that they'd ACTUALLY do it?

 

[nikomas1]

I'm from Sweden, I'm going to make this short but...

Thank heavens (Not actually religious) for our high taxes and socialized healthcare & Medicine...


Following that, anyone that thinks either of those are a bad idea, I want you to tell me straight to my face that you think one of my family members and one of my friends are both better off dead (or living with severe handicaps, depending on how it would have gone) for having a low income.

If you can do that, I'll gladly listen, otherwise **** off.

 

[bootz]

I've worked with insurance companies. People with "Pre-existing" conditions get no coverage.
I've seen Car accident injuries be classified as "pre-existing" so they dont have to a pay.
Insurance companies intenually screw over hurt and sick people so they can make more money.
I've been charged $700 for an arm sling.
I really capitailism doesnt work beacuse they are not up front with the charges, So you can't shop around so they charge crazy prices.


The ancient Babloyians had universal health care. Why cant we?

 

[Scrubiii]

Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.

Yep, but dont forget that those people studied/trained/learned 15-20 years to do that. They deserve bigger compensation in wages, then uncle bob who never went to college and fixes refrigerators.

Britain has a socialised health system, but doctors here still get paid a very large wage. Public healthcare does not result in a reduction of staff wages.

But someone has to pay it. YOU are doing it right now, you might actually never visit a hospital in your entire life, but you are still paying for it.

I'm not denying that. You said that they "deserve bigger compensation in wages" an I was just saying that they got that compensation in public healthcare systems as well as private ones.

 

[krugerrand123]

I hate that we do not have government healthcare, and it is sad that there are many of these stories, luckily, i do have health insurance, but my Mom must work at a job she hates just so we can both have it. I wish our country would give free healthcare, but it is not going so well, because people here are afraid it will lead to socialism, and do not like to pay a few more tax dollars. I hope we eventually get free healthcare, that should be a right.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

I'm not a big fan of the idea of universal healthcare.

Simply put, I have a relative who already works upwards of 9 months out of the year for the government. (In the sense of that's how long it takes him to earn the money to pay his taxes) That seems a bit nuts to me.

Also, I don't like the idea of forcing people to pay into a system they may never use.

Then again, when my father went through kemo the insurence guys paid for everything. So I guess I am one of the lucky ones.

 

[Savvz]

Times like this I'm glad I live in Kuwait. Where the health care is completely free and you don't pay taxes on anything.

I needed hip surgery for a chronic illness and didn't spend a penny if you discount the petrol used to drive to the hospital.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Some months back there was talk of the system being changed under the Obama administration. Last I heard it was still in the early stages, it seemed to mostly consist of a lot of people running around yelling something about socialism. Did that end up going anywhere?

So, anyway... is there a point to all this text? Well... no, not really. I guess I'm just a bit surprised that such a system would exist in a nation that likes to hold itself up as the epitome of the developed world, and not entirely without reason. Also, I would really like to hear from some of the many American escapists. What do you people think of this system? Do you want to defend it? Is there something I am missing here?

What the hell, I'll play American defender. Ah fuck it, I really can't. I'll explain what little I know (another wall o' text). Obama awhile back had a majority of his party in control of both the House of Representatives (around 400 or so people, probably more) and the US Senate (100 people). Not only that, but the majority was so large that it was called a SuperMajority because Republicans couldn't do anything to stop a vote. This paved the way for the opportunity to introduce the much needed health care bill. The problem is that half the Democrats in power wanted full on socialized medicine and the other half were under the influence of the healthcare lobby (insurance companies) and worried voters (old people worried about their already mostly free healthcare). They eventually reached a compromise and passed "something" to the anger of everybody involved, but especially Republicans who weren't involved at all. They riled up their base voters over this and the Democrats lost a lot of their hold on Congress in subsequent sessions.

Soooo. Some of the bill went into effect already, which includes provisions like forcing insurance companies to cover kids with preexisting conditions (why kids and not adults? I have no idea) and "preventative health care" (what they decide is "preventative," again no clue). By 2014, state run "insurance exchanges" and price controls come into play and it will be illegal to live in the US without paying for health insurance. Until then, as many Americans who buy insurance know, we're getting fucked because all the insurance companies are jacking up premiums because they can. And, Republicans are busting their asses to force the democrats out and use the courts to destroy the 2014 provisions.

Personally, I don't want socialized medicine. Our government can fuck up even the best ideas. My idea would be to A. legalize drugs to end all the legal / administrative bullshit that comes with prescriptions. B. Stop insurance companies from colluding with hospitals on prices for services C. Force insurance companies to cover all conditions preexisting or otherwise. Or outlaw health insurance altogether and let the market fix itself (in my opinion, those rat bastards don't deserve the right to exist in this country anymore).

 

[Talvrae]

You don't feel so bad paying 2x's the price for games now, do ya?

Whenever people bring it up, Insurance lobbyists cry that it will cause people to wait years for their major surgeries, people won't be able to choose their own doctors, and it will cause our best doctors to flee the country. People actually believe them too.

Fear Tactics FTW.

Go in Québec... fear tactics? No it's the truth... The Obama system seemed to be a nice alternatve trought

 

[TimeLord]

One thing I love about Britain is the health care. The cartilage under my knee cap got infected and burst out the side of my knee, I had to go to hospital to get it operated on and was layed up in a cast for 6 weeks and off work too.

Everything was free from the NHS and got sick pay from work too.

 

[AngryFrenchCanadian]

USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

It's more like "USA... umm... what the hell?!"

It's not just its health system, its the USA in its entirety that is "WTF?!"

 

[Callate]

We pay more for healthcare to achieve statistically fewer positive medical outcomes. We produce tons of high-paid specialists and a shortage of general practitioners and nurses. We have highly paid lobbyists who demonize any attempt to make sure anyone can see a doctor, and tons of credulous idiots who believe them when they're told it will be more expensive than and worse than what they have now, and that it will mean allowing government bureaucrats to decide when their parents and grandparents die. Idiots who are willing to yell down anyone trying to explain how they're misinformed using words of more than one syllable that can't be organized into a punchy chant.

It's not as bad as you think... In many ways, it's worse.

But, hey... At least we have M-rated games! Ha ha... (*groan*)

 

[scott91575]

The healthcare system in the united states is Bull. Shit. Period.

Health care is a business.

Socrates once said (or perhaps Plato) that if you wanted to have a chariot built, you'd go to a chariot maker. If you wanted to get a bone fixed, you'd go to a doctor etc. The point being that these people/practices exist to fill a need in society.

Now we're back to health care is a business.

Health care, being a business as it is, does not exist to fix people. It exists to make money. That's why businesses exist. Insurance companies don't give a shit about people and making them healthy. They care about their bottom line and making it healthy. This is why they have people (seriously, wish I was kidding but fuck I'm not) who scour patient claims for reasons to deny coverage through loop holes or their own jargon'd contracts/health plans. It's bullshit, plain and simple. It's existence for the wrong reason. It's damaging and destructive. And the people behind it don't give a shit. They have money to act as a salve for their wounds.

In closing, someone asked me once (as a diabetic from age 10 - healthy btw and looking to stay that way but finding insurance for the cost is... difficult) how I thought insurance company execs sleep at night.
My response: Quite heavenly, I imagine. *sullen pause*
They probably lie their heads on pillows stuffed with angel-soft down clipped from the wings of patients they've slain, whose familes had to watch as their bodies swung suspended with loopholes around their necks like nooses.

So, you think every industry that makes money is poorly ran and the government should do it? I mean, obviously, anything ran by the government is done well.

Think about this. Canada and the US have very similar economies except socialized healthcare. Canada flips the bill for 70% of it's healthcare, the US 50% (elderly people in the US do have government health care). Canada spends 5% more of their GPD than the US. 5% of their GDP for 20% more spending on health care. On top of that, I have worked with Canadians for years (in Detroit, which attracts many people from Windsor). All of them would rather go to a US hospital or see a US doctor.

Privatization is not a bad thing. There simply needs to be some more regulation and coverage for people on the lower end of the scale. Overall the health care for the insured in the US is some of the best in the world, and innovation is pretty much second to none. There does need to be issues cleared up on the low end, and pre existing conditions/denial of coverage needs to be eliminated. Yet the idea that companies out to make money is a bad thing is a horrible, horrible idea proven to be inefficient. Honestly, since this is a video game site, how well to you think your government would do in making video games? Privatized health care drives a ton of innovation. 6 of the top 12 (including the top 2) pharmaceutical companies are American. Even pharmaceutical companies outside of the US are driven by competition in the US market. Without the US healthcare market, many of the innovations you know and benefit from would never exist. A substantial amount of the top specialized hospitals in the world are in the US. There are some great things about privatized business, including innovation and streamlined businesses.

Just match up a business ran by any government where they have to compete vs. the private sector. They always lose unless heavily propped up by tax money giving them a competitive advantage.

Capitalism is not a bad thing, even in health care. There simply needs to be some checks added in so there is care for all. The problem we are facing in the US is determining that care, and who pays for it. Yes, the current system is broken, yet full scale socialist medicine funded by the government is not the answer.

 

[Mr. 47]

Proud to be Canadian. Free health care! ^.^

I view the american health care system as some sort of legal blackmail. (*activates flame shield*) Think about it. You are dying, you need help. Give this guy several thousand dollars, and you can live. You can't get it, you die. Pay or Die. It's as simple as that.

Slightly OT: What happens if your injury leaves you unable to communicate, with no family or friends you can give out your health care info, and no identification? Do they just hope that you have the money, or just let you die? Never quite understood that.

 

[Razzigyrl]

I can honestly say my favourite thing about living in the U.K. is our N.H.S. I am twenty two, have nearly every tooth in my head filled, have a half crown and two extractions, and I never paid a penny. I have terrible eyesight, and I have glasses, but the only thing I needed to pay for were frames. The lens, appointments, etc. were absolutely and gloriously free. I have been to the hospital several times, for stitches in various parts of my body (mainly my head) and never had to pay a thing. I have never broken a bone, but if I did, guess what? I wouldn't have to pay a thing. I am just now finishing my education, so some of the more specialist things I may have to pay for in the future, but for now, Mister NHS and I have had a wonderful relationship.

My word, I'm filled with jealousy. I'm an american, and currently uninsured. To get an insurance plan that's not a shop plan (through a job that actually gets such health benefits) would likely cost me around $200+ per month for the minimum, least-likely-to-help plan. Those don't include anything for dental or vision care usually, and I've been too afraid to look up a plan for dental care. The only way people in the US can get the care you describe is to jump through hoops and fill out massive amounts of paperwork, then hope very hard, or get in legal trouble and find themselves in the prison system. (Because prisoners getting less-than-adequate care is considered cruel and unusual or some such.) There have actually been stories in Yahoo News about people getting themselves arrested for just that purpose, and it scares me that we have to go to such extremes just to get any help.

Apparently 'Obamacare' is supposed to help, but it's not going to kick in until 2014, and that's if the politicians leave it be. I'm so sick of this corporation-funded fearmongering against any kind of help for those who are less than filthy rich. I would absolutely love to get the health care I need without spending time in prison.