It is on Nexus. Several mods I have downloaded, have come up with a popup asking if you would like to make a donation to the author.Katherine Kerensky said:
Valve Hasn't Given up on Paid Mods
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
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I have faith in the modding community. Also I believe people would rather give their labour of love for optional donations than have Valve and Bethesda (or any other dev, but who are we kidding) take 75 cents out of every dollar they might make.The Enquirer said:
there was an interview months ago that said fallout 4 didn't have any plans to put paids mods into it, but I suppose that could change quickly...if it does, I'm gonna be pitchforking it up to get a refund on the game.
Still, if they actually do what they are saying and release paid mods "with a new/fresh game", then fuck that game, I wouldn't spend a dime on it just for that decision alone.
Still, if they actually do what they are saying and release paid mods "with a new/fresh game", then fuck that game, I wouldn't spend a dime on it just for that decision alone.
"Getting greedy?" May I introduce you to Team Fortress 2, hat simulator? Yeah the game is fun but its ridiculous that Valve gets away with microtransactions that almost any other publisher would be blasted for. Valve has not been in any way shape or form the opposite of greedy for a great number of years now, and its ludicrous that they get a free pass.Doom972 said:
I like TF2. I think they get away with hats because it's all cosmetic. I don't think any other developer should be given shit for putting in purely cosmetic things into their game and charging for them. It's friggin cosmetic. You're playing the game for the gameplay, aren't you?
However I'm probably biased on that. I like microtransactions in the sense that it gets other fools to pay for the game that I don't have to pay microtransactions to enjoy. The company makes their money, and I get to enjoy the product without having to pay anything extra.
Fee-2-pay is different. Charging money for the game and then throwing in garbage or shallow horse-armor "DLC" is entirely different. Crappy cash-grabbing mods of terrible quality are horse armor 2.0
However I'm probably biased on that. I like microtransactions in the sense that it gets other fools to pay for the game that I don't have to pay microtransactions to enjoy. The company makes their money, and I get to enjoy the product without having to pay anything extra.
Fee-2-pay is different. Charging money for the game and then throwing in garbage or shallow horse-armor "DLC" is entirely different. Crappy cash-grabbing mods of terrible quality are horse armor 2.0
I remember everyone (myself included) saying that paid mods were fine in concept, just needs better implementation. I don't know if they're going to get it right this time or not, but they want to give it another stab? Sure.
MHR said:
Except in TF2's case this isn't true in the slightest.
Most of the stuff they've added as drops and crates are weapons, not hats. Weapons that drastically change how the game can be played by changing loadout and don't give me that nonsense about "sidegrades". More to the point I bought the game. At launch. And the game I paid for isn't the one it is today. Most of the people I know from back then don't play anymore because the weapon drop system is terrible and the game has completely jumped the shark.
DOTA2 is a much better example. All the actual content that effects the game is free. Everything paid-for is cosmetic.
Considering the fact that Bethesda and Valve apparently worked out some sort of deal for the Skyrim attempt, I'd say yeah...that's the most likely candidate, assuming said deal is still on the table between them.Doom972 said:
Because then they wouldn't be able to make any money off the deal, and we just can't have that! Considering the breakdown of the payment system - assuming it's the same as last-time - Valve gets 75% of the money made off the mod sale for doing a grand total of jack and shit.Arnoxthe1 said:
HOW ABOUT... They just set up a donation system? How about that? Is that really too hard to put in?
I think it's hilarious that the person who puts in the labor and makes the mod gets a single quarter flicked their way for every dollar their mod makes. While the concept of paying for mods is completely absurd in itself, Valve can't even claim the "It's to support the mod making community!" angle considering the fact that the parasites are consuming more income than the mod makers themselves.
This is as it's always been:
Valve Exec 1: "Hmmm...there's HUNDREDS of mods for HUNDREDS of games on Steam...if only there was a way we could monetize that..."
Valve Exec 2: "Simple: make people pay for the mods and we'll take most of the money as a "service fee"."
Valve Exec 1: "Works for me!"
Like I've said before, it's weird how Valve has been stumbling around for the last few years and clearly lacks self-awareness. This just shows that they learned nothing from the outcry against paid mods. Guys, it wasn't HOW you implemented it that people disliked, it's that you were trying to implement it at all. The most dangerous kind of idiot is one who thinks they're helping; YOU ARE NOT HELPING ANYONE.
The more I look at Valve the less I see of them as a company and more of a collection of geeks who just got lucky with a few releases, got rich, and now outright refuse to manage things even though it would be in everyone's best interests considering how Steam is a borderline monopoly with PC distribution.
The more I look at Valve the less I see of them as a company and more of a collection of geeks who just got lucky with a few releases, got rich, and now outright refuse to manage things even though it would be in everyone's best interests considering how Steam is a borderline monopoly with PC distribution.
I really like that comparison between the modding scene and the creation of cosmetics and weapons skins for TF2 & CS:GO, it really shows how out of touch Valve has become. The major reason why this just won't work that Valve is oblivious to is that people don't value mods enough to consider them worth a purchase.
Now let me explain. Mods have tons of issues. Firstly, mods are not finished products, they are constantly works-in-progress. Modders keep releasing patches and fixes to their mods whenever a new bug arises or the base game updates and renders their mod broken. Paying for mods would seem like paying for early access: you're paying for the idea of a finished product without any guarantee that it'll actually be completed. Secondly, there's compatibility - mods have no set standard they work to for compatibility, beyond just "working" with the base game. Sure, most mods in Skyrim use SKSE as a base, but there is very little inter-compatibility between mods. A lot of times you'll end up with overlap and conflicts while installing mods, and there's no real way to get around this beyond simply requesting that the mod creators rework their mods with these specific issues in mind - sadly, most of them don't, and having paid mods certainly won't change that, because they wouldn't have the incentive since they already have your money. Lastly, there's the content in the mod itself. Quite a few mods include copyrighted materials or even contain content from other mods. You bet there will be hell breaking loose if people start charging for mods with that sort of content.
With all these issues, it makes sense that people would value mods so lowly. Most people would value mods at $0 - free. If you suddenly start asking for money for things that people value at $0, you'll drive them off.
That's not to say I'm against good modders being rewarded for their efforts. Now, if Valve introduced some sort of Patreon-like system where people were given the option to continuously support modders they like on a per-month or per-mod basis, then I'd say that would be a hell of a lot better, rather than having people lock their mods behind paywalls.
Now let me explain. Mods have tons of issues. Firstly, mods are not finished products, they are constantly works-in-progress. Modders keep releasing patches and fixes to their mods whenever a new bug arises or the base game updates and renders their mod broken. Paying for mods would seem like paying for early access: you're paying for the idea of a finished product without any guarantee that it'll actually be completed. Secondly, there's compatibility - mods have no set standard they work to for compatibility, beyond just "working" with the base game. Sure, most mods in Skyrim use SKSE as a base, but there is very little inter-compatibility between mods. A lot of times you'll end up with overlap and conflicts while installing mods, and there's no real way to get around this beyond simply requesting that the mod creators rework their mods with these specific issues in mind - sadly, most of them don't, and having paid mods certainly won't change that, because they wouldn't have the incentive since they already have your money. Lastly, there's the content in the mod itself. Quite a few mods include copyrighted materials or even contain content from other mods. You bet there will be hell breaking loose if people start charging for mods with that sort of content.
With all these issues, it makes sense that people would value mods so lowly. Most people would value mods at $0 - free. If you suddenly start asking for money for things that people value at $0, you'll drive them off.
That's not to say I'm against good modders being rewarded for their efforts. Now, if Valve introduced some sort of Patreon-like system where people were given the option to continuously support modders they like on a per-month or per-mod basis, then I'd say that would be a hell of a lot better, rather than having people lock their mods behind paywalls.
Why should they bother with improving Steam and learning anything? The chicken or egg dilemma is already solved for Valve, developers will go to Steam because it has a monopoly not because they want to. Valve can do whatever they want and don't have to listen to anyone.Aiddon said:
Greed makes the world go round and destroys it in the end. This is the commodification of a relatively new form of culture, squeezing all the life out of it.
Also: I agree with the other posters that as soon as it costs money, you have rights to a warranty, support and all that.
Well shit... It's back already. Just in time for Fallout 4 and DooM, eh? Now I wonder how the MS and Sony will react if Valve can get away with this in some form? Paid online was A-OK with Microsoft from the start.
Modders stealing other modders' work, mods using copyrighted material (especially from copyright law happy/abusing companies), and Valve plus the publishers taking a good chunk of the revenue (even if the entirety of the mod's material is completely original), all of the comments above mentioning those are spot on. This will be another mess. It's just a matter of if Valve can make as clean as possible to get enough people bought into it (just like season passes and Microtransactions have somehow become accepted norms).
I'm really, really in favor of the donation idea. Although, the chances of that happening for a AAA corporate-produced title are minuscule. Even if some mods did get that option, the publisher and Valve would likely take a huge cut.
I only hope they are smart and give the modder the option of whether to make a mod be free or cost money. That idea would also be laughed out of the typical board room, though.
Modders stealing other modders' work, mods using copyrighted material (especially from copyright law happy/abusing companies), and Valve plus the publishers taking a good chunk of the revenue (even if the entirety of the mod's material is completely original), all of the comments above mentioning those are spot on. This will be another mess. It's just a matter of if Valve can make as clean as possible to get enough people bought into it (just like season passes and Microtransactions have somehow become accepted norms).
I'm really, really in favor of the donation idea. Although, the chances of that happening for a AAA corporate-produced title are minuscule. Even if some mods did get that option, the publisher and Valve would likely take a huge cut.
I only hope they are smart and give the modder the option of whether to make a mod be free or cost money. That idea would also be laughed out of the typical board room, though.
I'm theoretically fine with paid mods. With two rather major requirements though:
- Very strict admission system and swift removal of plagiarized mods.
- Immediate full refunds on request when a patch breaks a mod or it's remove due to the above.
All things considered, especially Valve being Valve, I don't see that happening so I'll remain quite cynical for now.
- Very strict admission system and swift removal of plagiarized mods.
- Immediate full refunds on request when a patch breaks a mod or it's remove due to the above.
All things considered, especially Valve being Valve, I don't see that happening so I'll remain quite cynical for now.
The first one was actually in effect. There was a bit of drama about a paid mod using assets from another, which was in the process of getting sorted out, but that came out of bad communication from Steam and Bethesda, not outright, intentional, plagiarism.Hagi said:
The second one was kind of in effect. There was a no questions asked refund policy in effect for, I think two weeks after purchase, if the mod broke something. It doesn't future proof it for a patch six months from now breaking the mod, or another mod breaking the mod. But, given by that point, money would have actually been dispersed. I mean, when steam still has the money, they can refund it. But, if Steam has paid to the content creator, and then something breaks because the mod author wasn't prescient. Then they can't go and get that money back.
With Valve's customer service reputation I have my doubts about the first one. It may have technically been in effect but that's not quite the same as being effective. Steam Greenlight isn't exactly a shining example of strict admissions and the initial flood of paid Skyrim mods, bar a few exceptions, wasn't much to write home about either.Starke said:
If they're selling paid mods I expect Valve to serve as curator of their own mod store. Because in the end, legally speaking, I'm buying those mods from Valve. And so I expect Valve to take that responsibility, their past actions really don't give me that much hope on that front.
As for the second. It's not really my problem if Valve can't get their money back from the modder. I'm not buying my mod from that modder. I'm buying my mod from Valve and if what I purchased from Valve stops working I expect my money back from Valve.
So yeah, in that case I expect Steam to take the loss. I expect them to own selling mods and to take full responsibility for the transactions that happen there.
I've never been against paid mods, but skyrim was the wrong game #1 and #2 Valve needs to re-evaluate more then just the game, the cut that the modder get's for their work is much too tiny, the fact that there is NO support for players that have purchased mods broken because of another mod or an update outside of contacting the mod maker needs to change and the mods that are being sold need to actually be...I dunno worth the money? Value is a subjective thing but I think most people hate the idea of paying 2 dollars for a single weapon, some cu-ration would be nice, oh wait...it's valve never mind that's a dirty term to them apparently
"The next time around (as there will most certainly be a next time around), Valve will make sure paid mods make their debut with the game's launch. "I don't think it matters whether it's a game of ours or not," said Johnson, "but I do agree that walking into a pre-existing, very mature community is probably not the best place to start."
- A Dumbass
So paid mods are debuting with the game hu? So that either means the game will be available to the community before it goes on sale (lolololol) or the game will launch and you'll get a nice banner across the workshop saying abandon your money all ye who enter here. And do note he didn't say games with strong mod communities were going to be left alone, just that they weren't a good place to START. Creeping cancer detected, we (as the collective internet) need to kill this thing with fire in its' infancy or it will become a staple of gaming.
On a side note, if this in fact becomes a thing, does that mean Valve is actually going to do some QC and give us their word every paid mod will work and not conflict with any other paid mod? Will they provide support for these mods? Who am I kidding, they can't even QC the "games" that are sold on their platform. Stay classy Valve.
- A Dumbass
So paid mods are debuting with the game hu? So that either means the game will be available to the community before it goes on sale (lolololol) or the game will launch and you'll get a nice banner across the workshop saying abandon your money all ye who enter here. And do note he didn't say games with strong mod communities were going to be left alone, just that they weren't a good place to START. Creeping cancer detected, we (as the collective internet) need to kill this thing with fire in its' infancy or it will become a staple of gaming.
On a side note, if this in fact becomes a thing, does that mean Valve is actually going to do some QC and give us their word every paid mod will work and not conflict with any other paid mod? Will they provide support for these mods? Who am I kidding, they can't even QC the "games" that are sold on their platform. Stay classy Valve.
This isn't a customer support issue, it's a legal liability issue. If someone were to have stolen a mod outright, and started selling it on there, and steam was notified, and chose not to take it down when notified, they would be opening themselves up to a massive lawsuit.Hagi said:
That's not equivalent to you having issues with your account hijacked, or someone making fraudulent charges with your credit card.
In one case, they're looking at a case that might manage to crawl out of small claims court, if you tried to file at all. In the other, you're talking about legal liability that would start in the six figures.
No, you are buying them from Valve. Valve is offering them to you under the terms of sale they're offering. You can say, "well, I don't like those," but, you're not going to get a better offer. As is, Valve will not let you buy anything, mess around with it for six months, then return it. You'd be hard pressed to find any major entertainment media outlet that would.Hagi said:
You know why?
Because people who buy boxed copies of steamworks games, and then take them back to the store the next day for a full refund still exist.
Let me know how that works for you. I'm guessing you already started boycotting Steam over this years ago, right? Oh, it's only modders you're holding to this standard? Right. When it's Ubisoft or WBgames putting out broken crap, that's fine by you. But screw me specifically. Cool.Hagi said:
Good luck with that. Your best bet? Don't play video games. Steam will never take the fall for you. That's how these businesses work. Same with UPlay, same with Origin. Except, not the same as Uplay, because at least with Steam you can get a refund under some circumstances.Hagi said:
The best mods I've ever played were made by folks who didn't give a damn about the money, they did it because they loved the fuck out of that game. If it was only the money that drew you back in, then just don't. It won't have any passion and it will just be a grey mass of "I did this for the money". You don't want to give your work out for free? Cool, I respect that, don't. But do notice the modding community has seemed to get along fine without you. On a side note, how can you possibly defend Valve's actions here when the actual mod creator got next to no money? It all went to Bethesda first, then Valve, and then the 2 cents went to the creator. So If Bethesda and Valve are getting the lion's share of the profits why shouldn't we expect then to provide some support for them?Starke said: