Valve Hasn't Given up on Paid Mods

[Dark Knifer]

Valve, valve, valve, but where's Bethesda in all this? Their the biggest name in mod-able games, I wonder what their take is?

Oh you will be glad to hear Bethesda is launching their own DRM/Digital store soon, to make sure you get the best content delivery system right inside the games where you didn't want that shit.
I'm guessing their debut will go along with some high profile game that is coming up...

I'm guessing this is a joke but its too scary so I'll ask for clarification.

This is a joke right? Please?

 

[ThinRedLine]

And modders and gamers will boycott/fight back just like before.

Keep on trying, you will fail.

 

[Hagi]

Well yeah... under the terms as they were with Skyrim I haven't bought any paid mods and wouldn't. Not quite a boycot but certainly not me participating. It should be obvious that Steam can sell paid mods in whatever legal format they want, it's just that in order for me to participate in it I want certain standards.

Same reason I don't buy early access games. Same reason I don't buy Ubisoft games. Same reason I won't buy paid mods as it is.

Nothing against modders, just no confidence in the terms and conditions as offered. And yeah, if that's the best offer I'll get I'll just pass.

 

[jklinders]

I'm smelling something foul brewing in the Direction of Fallout 4. They're going to try to sneak the announcement of paid mods, like, a few hours before the release of the game to ensure everyone's pre-order is already locked in. With the same terrible #*@$ing terms, no doubt. No smaller cut taken off the top by the companies, or option to pay "0" dollars.

I smell a trap.

I will have to agree that is a very good possibility. What made Bethesda games great was (to a big part) the mods. Also they were in collaboration with Bethesda last time they tried to implement a paid mods system.

Yep, I agree with both of you. Fallout 4 is coming out in barely a month. I was finicky on getting it in the first place. I will refuse to buy it at all if it's used as the launch vehicle for this shit. Further I will tell them both why. Boycotting without telling them is pointless after all. Bethsoft was in cahoots with Valve on this before and modding is literally the only thing that makes their games playable. Fuck, half the time a bethsoft game won't even run right without a fan made patch.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I'm guessing this is a joke but its too scary so I'll ask for clarification.

This is a joke right? Please?

It certainly is a kind of joke, but not all will find it funny.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/60396/20150615/bethesda-announces-bethesda-net-for-fallout-doom-elderscrolls-online-and-other-games.htm

 

[Starke]

Valve, valve, valve, but where's Bethesda in all this? Their the biggest name in mod-able games, I wonder what their take is?

Oh you will be glad to hear Bethesda is launching their own DRM/Digital store soon, to make sure you get the best content delivery system right inside the games where you didn't want that shit.
I'm guessing their debut will go along with some high profile game that is coming up...

I'm guessing this is a joke but its too scary so I'll ask for clarification.

This is a joke right? Please?

It's a joke... mostly. Since that's what Steam does already.

Edit: I stand corrected.

 

[Starke]

Weren't there tons of fraudulent paid mods that were just other peoples freely avaliable work repackaged for skyrim when they tried this the first time around?
I guess they are hungry for hand-steak and keep pressing down on the stove that burned them once.

I heard people just reskinned weapons and sold it for 99 cents, as part of how horrible the system was.

I heard they were sacrificing stray cats behind the place at midnight.

But, seriously, no, that didn't happen. There were new weapons, but no reskins. I mean, to some extent with Skyrim that's an academic distinction. The shadiest shit was a mod that actually relied on another modder's animations framework (there was some confusion from Bethesda and Valve over how this worked, and someone ended up putting a mod out with someone else's work in it), and there was a crowbar and (I think) HEV Suit mod, which used the HL2 assets (with Valve's blessing), but it made the entire project look much less professional. The battletoads and spiderman shit in the post itself is bullshit, and has nothing to do with the program. But, since someone at Valve let one of their friends run with stuff, it gave the impression that those kinds of garbage mods were on the way.

 

[Karadalis]

There is so much misinformation and ignorance in this topic that I scarcely know where to begin. It's shocking (well, not really) to me how ignorant everyone seems to be about the specifics of IP ownership and licensing.

You know you can't just...make a thing from someone else's assets and sell it for a profit without having to at least pay the IP holders for a license to use those assets, right? It's why Bethesda took a cut of the sales. (With Valve's cut going to network and storage costs)

Accusing others of being ignorant while being yourselfe pretty ignorant... classic


First of all: You get a license for using ingame assets each time a developer ships a editor with their game. No this doesnt allow you to resell game assets but that is not the point here because for the most part no one actually does resell ingame assets, they simply use the editor tools as they are allowed to do under this liscence to insert their OWN work.

SECOND: However most noteworthy mods dont even contain Bethesda code or assets to begin with since its allready present in the game or are completly independend from ingame assets. UI overhauls? New graphic effects? Extended script libraries? Heck even stupid things like horsearmor or new weapon models are 100% original and bethesda has actually no claim to that work. Yet they still demand 50% of all earnings? On wich legal grounds exactly?

THIRD:

You are arguing a strawman here. Not only do you represent peoples arguments wrongly but you assume that people are completly against bethesda taking a share. What people are argainst is bethesda taking a 50% cut and valve getting 25% Leaving the modder with a measaly 25% for their hard work, when in truth it should be more like 25% for bethesda for providing the tools and 25% for steam for providing store shelf and 50% to the modders (if not even less % for the companies involved).

The reason people are pissed about bethesdas share is solely based on the fact that bethesda is de facto stealing money from the modders for stuff they have no legal claim on to begin with. Its not their code, its the modders code, its not their graphic assets, its the modders graphic assets.

So a share of 50% is nothing but money grubbing greedy and shows the disdain that bethesda holds for the people that are responsible for the widespread success of their games, cause god knows they themselves are not known for good quality.

So yeah, next time you accuse others of ignorance you should check your own arguments.

Also my personal pet peeve with this whole paid mod nonsense is the short sightetness of its defenders and modders that fall for it:

"Paid mods will help create better and bigger mods!"

This argument that people could make bigger and better mods because they would get paid is rather cute:

Where do you take the money from to create your mod in the first place?

Remember: You dont get paid till you deliver! If you even make it over the magical 400 dollar barrier that you have to earn AFTER valve and publisher take their 75% cut

And from those 25% youre left with? You have to pay everyone involved in your big new quality and better then before mod, you have to pay your lawyers that you will inevitably need to cover your asses, you have to pay taxes too! Also living expenses and working expenses. And ontop of that you have to support your old mod/s while you work on a new one to make more money!

Do you really think at the end of the day you will make a living off modding for a single game for a single plattform? I dont think so.

If you think you could survive on this system and deliver better mods then if you did it as a hobby you live in magical lala land.

The incentive here is completly on easy to churn out cosmetic micro transactions just like in any other game that has "paid mods" that valve likes to go on and on about. (pro tip: those arent mods to begin with since they dont modify anything, just added graphical assets thats all)

Not on the big game changing or content adding mods everyone is actually talking about when it comes to the modding scene.

Anything that takes more then one person and/or more then a couple of hours in a 3D editor software is simply not feasable as an income source.

 

[Goliath100]

The problem with Paid Mods is the insistence of a direct market. Just sell them to the developers and let them give them out in packs.

 

[Karadalis]

The problem with Paid Mods is the insistence of a direct market. Just sell them to the developers and let them give them out in packs.

But that would actually mean the publisher would have to do work! Wich means he would not make any money on the allready slim profit margins due to the massive amount of Q n A they would have to do.

Not that certain companies are actually known for their Q n A

 

[DementedSheep]

Theoretically I'm fine with modders charging for their work but this still leaves the problem of quality control, mods that break the game or break when patched, conflict with other mods and mods that expand on and use resources from other mods. I also don't know how many people would bother with modding if it wasn't free.

 

[Phantom Renegade]

I guess valve just up and forgot that most of the clusterfrak with paid mods had to do with how poorly it was implemented, regulated, and how much of naked cash grab it was that the creator only got a small cut from the mods price.

Not to mention the stuff people weren't complaining as vocally about like how paid mods in some ways reduces the creativity of the mod scene by making mods that rely on other mods more of a pain to make.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

I vaguely remember all the Skyrim paid mods being like.... a dude who follows you around named "valve" that takes a percentage of your money. Tonnes of mods of some variety or the other, about valve taking like.... GOLD from you in the game.

I don't know about you guys, but I found that hilarious.

 

[MoltenSilver]

I'm not against paid mods in a theoretical vacuum, but as soon as practicality comes into it there are just so many problems it's hard to see it become worthwhile. Firstly it would have to be much, much, much more strictly regulated with someone somehow checking each mod for copyright violations and other such things that could end in a swift lawsuit (Good luck getting just this far...). Next, it needs to be figured out who holds liability if a mod fails to work as advertised, or has conflicts with other mods, or it changes where fits in a link of dependencies, which speaking of if someone sells a mod dependent on another mod, do they then have to license that mod and sell it alongside their own? Can a buyer demand a refund over it causing bugs? What if dependencies change with updates? Is this all caveat emptor? If so the model will be dead in a week after buyers lose their patience trying to wrangle a thing they paid for? When things inevitably do go wrong, who holds the legal liability? Sure Valve can sign agreements with modders that they have to take that liability but those agreements haven't been court-tested, and you bet your ass anyone suing would do their best to bring the much-richer publisher and Valve into it.

 

[sonicneedslovetoo]

And that year Valve was buried under a tidal wave of hatred and bootleg mods stolen from other people, suddenly the mod scene was rife with pre-bought assets being sold for a dollar or 25 cents even if it didn't work, even if it just crashed your game the second you started it up. And then the modders started to get smart they started to pay people to reccomend the mod in the comments and use a spiders web of sock puppet accounts to promote their own pre-bought garbage mod that may not even work.

Then they got even smarter and started stealing assets from other games to sell at a profit, one model tweak here and attach the two handed sword's animation file and suddenly you have icemourne which is totally not frostmourne at all give us a dollar.

Then somebody had the brilliant idea of trawling the Nexus for mods that nobody particularly cares about because they didn't get any attention and putting them up for sale for any amount of money at all and nobody will notice what you've stolen from other people. Then they'll realize that there are mod scenes outside of the English speaking world and start stealing mods made in Russia or Japan because then they don't even have to worry about somebody finding out, anybody who could find out lives an entire country and language barrier away.

And then they got even smarter than that and just started using photoshop and the steam workshop's own flawed page system to charge for mods that don't even exist or do ANYTHING AT ALL and couldn't even be called "quarter finished" because that would imply work had been done on the mod at some point or another and the mod physically existed in any phrase of the word. Because on steam having a halfway looking competent front page is miles more important than having a working game at all because you can bribe people with steam keys for your game if they give you give reviews.

Because its not about improving the community anymore, its not about fixing the game Bethesda left half finished and glitchy, its about making money only and always and as cheaply and with as little effort as possible the Digital Homicide way. And Valve will sit on their gilded throne and laugh because they're getting a cut out of all this, out of all these stolen assets, out of all these half assed pre-built shit they will ascend to the top of a pile of cash because they figured out a way to trick people into thinking they could turn human excrement into gold.

 

[Olas]

If they were smart, they'd try making paying optional, so if people actually enjoy the mod and feel like it, they'd kick a couple of dollars/pounds/etc the mod creator's way.
I know I would if I found some particularly good mods, like DUST for New Vegas, for example. Hell, even little mods if they add something nice. That way they get some cash, and they wouldn't get the huge backlash from forcing people to pay.

Paying is already optional, Nexus mods has a system for supporting modders, and there's always Patreon. If you want to support your favorite modders, go do it, nobody's stopping you.

I will never pay a single penny for a mod. Whatever this mod is. Mod is a labour of love, not business.

I believe modding can be a labor of love, or a business, or both. Or did someone put you in charge of deciding what mods are and aren't allowed to be?

Paid mod is by default NOT a labour of love whatever its devs will say; if it was, they'd make a new game instead.

Why is that the case? I'm sorry, but I see zero rationale for that statement, and you haven't provided any, so I'm left wondering if you've thought about this at all. Why can a labor of love only be profited from if it's a new game? Are you saying that no DLC has ever been a labor of love?

I've said it before. If they want money for it then they're no longer mods. They're just third party dlc sellers.

Okay, then they're 3rd party DlC sellers. So what?

I would very much like to know how they intend to beat all the expectations that comes with asking for money for what they'll make because all the problematic crap I've run into when using mods? I wouldn't be as likely to tolerate that on a product I'm paying for to put it like that.

I think the fallacy here is in assuming that the prices for mods will be in line with traditional DLC, but that the quality and support will remain just as bad as it currently is where mods are given away for free. Obviously there's no reason to assume that either of these will be true, especially not in the long run, so I think the common knee-jerk reactions are unwarranted.[/quote]

there was an interview months ago that said fallout 4 didn't have any plans to put paids mods into it, but I suppose that could change quickly...if it does, I'm gonna be pitchforking it up to get a refund on the game.


Still, if they actually do what they are saying and release paid mods "with a new/fresh game", then fuck that game, I wouldn't spend a dime on it just for that decision alone.

Your loss.

I remember everyone (myself included) saying that paid mods were fine in concept, just needs better implementation. I don't know if they're going to get it right this time or not, but they want to give it another stab? Sure.

It sure as hell isn't everyone, or else I'd agree with them. There was a knee-jerk outrage when the idea was first proposed, and then when people realized how unreasonable it was, they shifted the focus to Valve's flawed implementation to save face. At least that's how it looked to me.

However, since there are no details about Valve's implementation this time around, there's no justification for even that complaint. I guess people are just assuming Valve has learned absolutely nothing and won't try to address the concerns they clearly know people have with this system.

 

[Karadalis]

However, since there are no details about Valve's implementation this time around, there's no justification for even that complaint. I guess people are just assuming Valve has learned absolutely nothing and won't try to address the concerns they clearly know people have with this system.

After greenlight and early access and the abysmal customer service they self admitted to but havent changed diddly squat about?

Yes.. yes that is a completly reasonable stance to take

 

[Rastrelly]

If they were smart, they'd try making paying optional, so if people actually enjoy the mod and feel like it, they'd kick a couple of dollars/pounds/etc the mod creator's way.
I know I would if I found some particularly good mods, like DUST for New Vegas, for example. Hell, even little mods if they add something nice. That way they get some cash, and they wouldn't get the huge backlash from forcing people to pay.

(1)Paying is already optional, Nexus mods has a system for supporting modders, and there's always Patreon. If you want to support your favorite modders, go do it, nobody's stopping you.

I will never pay a single penny for a mod. Whatever this mod is. Mod is a labour of love, not business.

(2)I believe modding can be a labor of love, or a business, or both. Or did someone put you in charge of deciding what mods are and aren't allowed to be?

Paid mod is by default NOT a labour of love whatever its devs will say; if it was, they'd make a new game instead.

(3)Why is that the case? I'm sorry, but I see zero rationale for that statement, and you haven't provided any, so I'm left wondering if you've thought about this at all. Why can a labor of love only be profited from if it's a new game? Are you saying that no DLC has ever been a labor of love?

I've said it before. If they want money for it then they're no longer mods. They're just third party dlc sellers.

(4)Okay, then they're 3rd party DlC sellers. So what?

I would very much like to know how they intend to beat all the expectations that comes with asking for money for what they'll make because all the problematic crap I've run into when using mods? I wouldn't be as likely to tolerate that on a product I'm paying for to put it like that.

(5)I think the fallacy here is in assuming that the prices for mods will be in line with traditional DLC, but that the quality and support will remain just as bad as it currently is where mods are given away for free. Obviously there's no reason to assume that either of these will be true, especially not in the long run, so I think the common knee-jerk reactions are unwarranted.

there was an interview months ago that said fallout 4 didn't have any plans to put paids mods into it, but I suppose that could change quickly...if it does, I'm gonna be pitchforking it up to get a refund on the game.


Still, if they actually do what they are saying and release paid mods "with a new/fresh game", then fuck that game, I wouldn't spend a dime on it just for that decision alone.

Your loss.

I remember everyone (myself included) saying that paid mods were fine in concept, just needs better implementation. I don't know if they're going to get it right this time or not, but they want to give it another stab? Sure.

(6)It sure as hell isn't everyone, or else I'd agree with them. There was a knee-jerk outrage when the idea was first proposed, and then when people realized how unreasonable it was, they shifted the focus to Valve's flawed implementation to save face. At least that's how it looked to me.

However, since there are no details about Valve's implementation this time around, there's no justification for even that complaint. I guess people are just assuming Valve has learned absolutely nothing and won't try to address the concerns they clearly know people have with this system.[/quote]
1) Paying is not optional. Or you can legally download a DLC from one place for free and from other - with payment?
2) You can prove me wrong? Because for now with Skyrim fiasco I saw a bunch of greedy maggots either releasing shite OR immediately walling-up previously free mods while all modders I do respect for some reason immediately stated they will never turn to paid modding.
3) Because mod is something made by fans to improve a game they love. If they do it to make profit they turn into business, and business cannot exist on same principle.
4) So that.
5) Who will provide proper support for a mod? Mod devs? Don't be ridiculous. Game devs? Why would they. They have no connection to the mod and they'll have to create a huge department to monitor, control, organize compatibility, and provide version compatibility for user-submitted content. It would completely trash any income from mods. So there will be no control over that or paid mods will be extremely limited within what they actually do (like in Team Fortress 2).
6) I sis not shift any focus. This idea is horrible and will kill modding as it is today. It already does so with games like TF2 and UT2014.

 

[Olas]

Also my personal pet peeve with this whole paid mod nonsense is the short sightetness of its defenders and modders that fall for it:

"Paid mods will help create better and bigger mods!"

This argument that people could make bigger and better mods because they would get paid is rather cute:

Where do you take the money from to create your mod in the first place?

Remember: You dont get paid till you deliver! If you even make it over the magical 400 dollar barrier that you have to earn AFTER valve and publisher take their 75% cut

And from those 25% youre left with? You have to pay everyone involved in your big new quality and better then before mod, you have to pay your lawyers that you will inevitably need to cover your asses, you have to pay taxes too! Also living expenses and working expenses. And ontop of that you have to support your old mod/s while you work on a new one to make more money!

Do you really think at the end of the day you will make a living off modding for a single game for a single plattform? I dont think so.

If you think you could survive on this system and deliver better mods then if you did it as a hobby you live in magical lala land.

Maybe I live in a magic Lala land, but from where I'm standing what you're saying makes zero sense. You talk about trying to survive on this system with such slim profit margins when people are already somehow surviving with NO income from it whatsoever.

But in reality the paid for mods don't even have to make a net profit for the creator to be worthwhile. Even if the new income only lessens the burden of what is essentially a hobby for the creators, that would still be preferable to them.

So for your point to be valid, you have to argue that the additional costs incurred will out-way the additional sales revenue. The assumed 75% cut to Valve and publisher is a fixed percentage of the earnings, so it can only yield a net positive, as are taxes, and living and working expenses are a sunk cost that modders have to deal with regardless of whether they get paid for the mods. Having to split the revenue with any and all staff you employ is just dividing what would otherwise be zero anyway.

So all you're left with is the cost of lawyers when they "inevitably need to cover their asses". Of course actually taking any IP violations to trial would be an extreme scenario, which seems fairly unlikely, especially with Valve in place to police the system.

And if modders don't feel that it's worthwhile after all that... then there just won't be any paid mods and nothing changes.

The incentive here is completly on easy to churn out cosmetic micro transactions just like in any other game that has "paid mods" that valve likes to go on and on about. (pro tip: those arent mods to begin with since they dont modify anything, just added graphical assets thats all)

Not on the big game changing or content adding mods everyone is actually talking about when it comes to the modding scene.

Anything that takes more then one person and/or more then a couple of hours in a 3D editor software is simply not feasable as an income source.

You seem to make the same error most people make in assuming that once people are allowed to make profits off modding, financial incentives will become the ONLY incentive modders have, and all other internal and external motivations such as pride, passion, and artistic vision will disappear. Yet that isn't true with videogames as a whole, or any other medium that I know of. Does the small fee that indie-developers charge keep them from creating good, quality content? I don't think so. Obviously there will be some people who are just trying to make a quick buck, pumping out loads of cheap shovelware, but those won't detract from the GOOD mods that people make.

 

[Olas]

If they were smart, they'd try making paying optional, so if people actually enjoy the mod and feel like it, they'd kick a couple of dollars/pounds/etc the mod creator's way.
I know I would if I found some particularly good mods, like DUST for New Vegas, for example. Hell, even little mods if they add something nice. That way they get some cash, and they wouldn't get the huge backlash from forcing people to pay.

(1)Paying is already optional, Nexus mods has a system for supporting modders, and there's always Patreon. If you want to support your favorite modders, go do it, nobody's stopping you.

I will never pay a single penny for a mod. Whatever this mod is. Mod is a labour of love, not business.

(2)I believe modding can be a labor of love, or a business, or both. Or did someone put you in charge of deciding what mods are and aren't allowed to be?

Paid mod is by default NOT a labour of love whatever its devs will say; if it was, they'd make a new game instead.

(3)Why is that the case? I'm sorry, but I see zero rationale for that statement, and you haven't provided any, so I'm left wondering if you've thought about this at all. Why can a labor of love only be profited from if it's a new game? Are you saying that no DLC has ever been a labor of love?

I've said it before. If they want money for it then they're no longer mods. They're just third party dlc sellers.

(4)Okay, then they're 3rd party DlC sellers. So what?

I would very much like to know how they intend to beat all the expectations that comes with asking for money for what they'll make because all the problematic crap I've run into when using mods? I wouldn't be as likely to tolerate that on a product I'm paying for to put it like that.

(5)I think the fallacy here is in assuming that the prices for mods will be in line with traditional DLC, but that the quality and support will remain just as bad as it currently is where mods are given away for free. Obviously there's no reason to assume that either of these will be true, especially not in the long run, so I think the common knee-jerk reactions are unwarranted.

there was an interview months ago that said fallout 4 didn't have any plans to put paids mods into it, but I suppose that could change quickly...if it does, I'm gonna be pitchforking it up to get a refund on the game.


Still, if they actually do what they are saying and release paid mods "with a new/fresh game", then fuck that game, I wouldn't spend a dime on it just for that decision alone.

Your loss.

I remember everyone (myself included) saying that paid mods were fine in concept, just needs better implementation. I don't know if they're going to get it right this time or not, but they want to give it another stab? Sure.

(6)It sure as hell isn't everyone, or else I'd agree with them. There was a knee-jerk outrage when the idea was first proposed, and then when people realized how unreasonable it was, they shifted the focus to Valve's flawed implementation to save face. At least that's how it looked to me.

However, since there are no details about Valve's implementation this time around, there's no justification for even that complaint. I guess people are just assuming Valve has learned absolutely nothing and won't try to address the concerns they clearly know people have with this system.

1) Paying is not optional. Or you can legally download a DLC from one place for free and from other - with payment?[/quote]

What are you talking about? Paying is always optional. You won't die if you don't get game mods.

2) You can prove me wrong? Because for now with Skyrim fiasco I saw a bunch of greedy maggots either releasing shite OR immediately walling-up previously free mods while all modders I do respect for some reason immediately stated they will never turn to paid modding.

As is totally their right. What exactly is your point here? That once something is free it should have to always be free?

Fun fact, the modders "you respect" probably didn't want to piss off fans like you who were foaming at the mouth at the thought of actually having to pay for something. Would they have changed their tune if popular consensus was different? Or even if the system had just been given a chance to get off the ground before being shut down? Who knows. To answer your question, no, I can't prove you wrong, because the system wasn't given a chance. But perhaps now it will be, unless people like you preemptively stop it again.

3) Because mod is something made by fans to improve a game they love. If they do it to make profit they turn into business, and business cannot exist on same principle.

This fallacy again? So how exactly do you account for indie-developers in this completely unnuanced worldview of yours?

4) So that.

AH, nice comeback. You really got me there.

5) Who will provide proper support for a mod? Mod devs?

Yep, that was quick. Glad to see you can answer some of these yourself.

Don't be ridiculous.

Oh, um... was I? I just kinda assumed the person who provides support for a thing would be the one who made the thing. So why is that "ridiculous"?

Game devs? Why would they. They have no connection to the mod

The mod they're making 25% off of? I don't think they'd provide any support, but don't complain about them taking some of the revenue and then claim they have zero investment in the mods.

6) I sis not shift any focus. This idea is horrible and will kill modding as it is today. It already does so with games like TF2 and UT2014.

Just so I'm clear what we're talking about. Is it the particular way Valve implemented paid mods that is going to kill modding, or is the very notion of paid mods that is going to kill modding?

I disagree either way, but for different reasons. Also, boo fucking hoo if your modding scene changes, modders should be allowed to make money from their work if they want to. And no, you probably won't benefit from this, get over it.