Valve Says PS3 Complexity Hinders Game Development

[Shycte]

If they want to put their games on the Xbox 360, PC, NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo NeoGeo

Suddenly... Team Fortress! A SPRITE-BASED FIGHTER IS YOU!!!!

Edit: Apparently someone made a Mugen with 2fort as the background and HWG as a playable character, which would illustrate my point beautifully, but it ran up it bandwidth limit on photobucket.

Please excuse my extreme noobyness but I fail to understand.

Maybe it's because I'm nothing but a "dumb" console-tard....

 

[Talonhand]

To finish this once and for all.

Valve is a company of 200 people working, with CS:S, TF2, DOD:S and L4D to provide with content and bug fixing.

They also developing HL2:Ep3 and Left 4 Dead 2, plus improving a game engine.(And maybe Portal 2)

Also trying to keep the biggest digital distribution system up and running 24/7.

Do you honestly expect Valve at this point to pick up the PS3 or even the Wii and learn to develop for them? When they can just develop for the PC and the 360 two platformers that aparently are the same to develop, and make tons of profit.

Short answer: No.

They just wont bother to learn to develop to the PS3, cause to Valve eyes its not worth the effort and they most likely have better stuff to do.(Like playing WoW. ^^)

So PS3 fans that want Valve games to the PS3 I suggest the folowing: Learn to develop to the PS3 and apply to Valve.

Agreed. In my opinion, C++ is easier to learn than console SDKs, more people know it, and the Xbox was made by Microsoft, which makes is fairly easy to convert from PC to Xbox. If people want it this bad, go pick up a copy of the ps3 SDK, learn it, then, like stated above, go apply to Valve and make it yourself.

 

[Zer_]

**snip**

The Cell itself has a single (Very simplified) PowerPC processor inside of it to act as a controller for the other coprocessors. This PowerPC processor is rather easy to code for. It's the other 6 processors on the PS3 that cause the issues. (There are a total of 8 coprocessors, but Sony has made only 6 available to game developers).

The Simplified PowerPC processor in the PS3 is heavily simplified in that it is not as powerful as say a regular PowerPC running at the same frequency. The processor is still able to run standard Linux operating systems though, which is why people are capable of running Linux and Linux games on the PS3. These programs are only able to use one processor.

There are very few details about the core within the 360. Many people assume that it is based off of the Cell's PowerPC processor and if it is it is heavily modified otherwise the 360 wouldn't be as powerful as it is.

Also the 360's disk capacity is not an issue as games are able to use multiple disks.

 

[Jumplion]

Using any exclusives as an example of how easy it is to program for the PS3 works, but only if you are programming FOR THE PS3. Valve isn't programming for the PS3, they need to PORT the game to the PS3 which results in a lot of issues.

while I don't like using 2nd party developers like Naughty Dog and such, I would just like to point out that Sucker Punch, creator of Sly Cooper and InFamous, has only 90 employees, less than half of what VALVe has, and have succeeded in making games both faster and longer in playtime than most anything VALVe has done in the past few years. That, and the founders were ex-Microsoft employees, so there's the irony~ for you.

I'm just sayin', wanted to drop that by

 

[FinalGamer]

Well done Sony, you gave the developers a Rubik's Cube even less entertaining than playing with one.

Well done, FinalGamer. You said something that reeks of trollbait. Enjoy worshipping Valve like their crap smells like flowers.

Well they never had a bad game yet really, so until they do I can worship them without any regrets to my will

But I'll apologise for the PS3 comment, I don't hate the system or any of the owners, I just hate Sony.

 

[DrScoobs]

Subjective, arbitrary and biased reviews are now considered facts ?[/quote]

reviews are reviews and are still facts... also can you give us examples of biased reviews before claiming that everyone who reviews ps3 games are biased

 

[DrScoobs]

also i love how this has become the 'hate on ps3 thread'... sigh.
i <3 valve and also <3 my ps3 and i like them both

 

[Kubanator]

Using any exclusives as an example of how easy it is to program for the PS3 works, but only if you are programming FOR THE PS3. Valve isn't programming for the PS3, they need to PORT the game to the PS3 which results in a lot of issues.

while I don't like using 2nd party developers like Naughty Dog and such, I would just like to point out that Sucker Punch, creator of Sly Cooper and InFamous, has only 90 employees, less than half of what VALVe has, and have succeeded in making games both faster and longer in playtime than most anything VALVe has done in the past few years. That, and the founders were ex-Microsoft employees, so there's the irony~ for you.

I'm just sayin', wanted to drop that by

Valve makes LFD, TF2, Halflife, Portal, and continually updates them while making new games. Sucker Punch makes a game, patches it a bit, and works on the next one. Valve strives for quality rather than shipping games as fast as they can given that all of their games end up in top 10 lists and all of their games have a 90+ rating.

 

[dirk45]

Wait a second.

intentionally designed the PS3 to be difficult to program so that developers wouldn't be able to maximize its potential right away.

That has got to be the worst reason for making a console complicated.

Guess it gets rid of the shovelware.

That's what they say now. The truth probably looks more like:
"Hirai San, here's another dev telling us that our PS3 is too complicated to program."
"To avoid loss of faith we need to find a good excuse."
"Maybe we could tell them that it was intentional, to give developers something to think about."
"I have a great idea. We tell them it was intentional. Write a note to the press in my name."
"Hai, Hirai San."

No, the reason is totally nonsense. Developers need their time to optimize the game, not fight against the machine. But the multi processor model will also come to the PC. 4 cores are pretty much standard and there are more to come. And when you look at IBMs graphic processor development (or was it Intel?) they are looking for a processor architecture with 64 and more cores. The only difference is that there is a nice Direct X interface that simplifies development a lot. Seems like Sony didn't understand their own processors.

 

[Jumplion]

Valve makes LFD, TF2, Halflife, Portal, and continually updates them while making new games. Sucker Punch makes a game, patches it a bit, and works on the next one. Valve strives for quality rather than shipping games as fast as they can given that all of their games end up in top 10 lists and all of their games have a 90+ rating.

Most if not all of Sucker Punch's games are equally as good, lowest rating being 83 for Sly 3, and I don't think that Single-Player PS2 games are that adaquet for updates and patches, as well as another Single-Player game with no real need for patches unless there is a game breaking bug which I have yet to encounter any.
The only real one that VALVe has actually supported and updated from your list is TF2, with Half-Life we wait FOREVER for a single 4-hour episode, Portal had some extra slices(neehehehe, cake!), and L4D is constantly being debated about whether the sequel is actually warranted and in such a short time.

My main point was that a company, half the size of VALVe, easily makes great games for the Playstations around once a year, though admitedly they probably get some special treatment from Sony.

 

[Dark assassin for hire]

LOL, PS3 sucks...
wow i just stated the obvious.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Does Sucker Punch run the biggest digital distribution system in the world?(Right now it is...for games this is.)

I thought so.

 

[Jumplion]

*snip*

Does Sucker Punch run the biggest digital distribution system in the world?(Right now it is...for games this is.)

I thought so.

Uh, what? What does STEAM have to do with whatever it was that I was talking about? Could you clarify for me instead of doing one of those short statements that make some random point that makes the poster feel smart? C'mon, don't be ashamed, we all do that

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Does Sucker Punch run the biggest digital distribution system in the world?(Right now it is...for games this is.)

I thought so.

Uh, what? What does STEAM have to do with whatever it was that I was talking about? Could you clarify for me instead of doing one of those short statements that make some random point that makes the poster feel smart? C'mon, don't be ashamed, we all do that

STEAM is runned by VALVe, STEAM costs alot of money to run and keep it working.

Sucker Punch doesn't have a huge business to take care of, they only do games, therefor they can devote more time and money into doing those games.

VALVe spent the last year making STEAM going from the F that those business thingie ratings to the A they got this April.

To make it short they spent last year perfecting a business.

And the point is SuckerPunch only makes games VALVe makes games and runs a huge business.

 

[Woe Is You]

*snip*

Does Sucker Punch run the biggest digital distribution system in the world?(Right now it is...for games this is.)

I thought so.

Uh, what? What does STEAM have to do with whatever it was that I was talking about? Could you clarify for me instead of doing one of those short statements that make some random point that makes the poster feel smart? C'mon, don't be ashamed, we all do that

That Valve is running it? That perhaps Valve has a lot more on their plate than companies like Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch? Sucker Punch may have about half the employees Valve has but they also have to worry about one or two projects at a time. Valve on the other hand... Contrary to what you've said, L4D has gotten new content (and a beta SDK), TF2 has had new content, they've got to run Steam and they're working on churning out new games (Episode 3, L4D, Portal 2 of the games we know at least).

I have highlighted quite a few reasons why the guys at Valve might not be seeing the PS3 worth their time (the 30% sales increase fallacy for one, the fact that they're basically running a game platform that they want people to buy games for as another one, and a bunch of other things in previous posts).

 

[Jumplion]

STEAM is runned by VALVe, STEAM costs alot of money to run and keep it working.

Sucker Punch doesn't have a huge business to take care of, they only do games, therefor they can devote more time and money into doing those games.

VALVe spent the last year making STEAM going from the F that those business thingie ratings to the A they got this April.

To make it short they spent last year perfecting a business.

And the point is SuckerPunch only makes games VALVe makes games and runs a huge business.

That Valve is running it? That perhaps Valve has a lot more on their plate than companies like Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch? Sucker Punch may have about half the employees Valve has but they also have to worry about one or two projects at a time. Valve on the other hand... Contrary to what you've said, L4D has gotten new content (and a beta SDK), TF2 has had new content, they've got to run Steam and they're working on churning out new games (Episode 3, L4D, Portal 2 of the games we know at least).

So just now we're starting to push in "VALVe has STEAM so they can't work on anything else!" and to most extents you're right, but I think we're pulling a straw-man/ad homeniem here. I'm not claiming that VALVe doesn't have alot on it's plate, i'm saying (or at least one of the things I'm saying) is that at half the size of VALVe, Sucker Punch still produces great games for the PS3 regardless of it's "complexity"

VALVe makes more than enough money to run STEAM and they handle plenty of things at once, but let's steer this sucker back on the real topic; VALVe saying that the complexity somehow degenerates quality from a title.

We're not talking about platforms or how much VALVe has on their plate, though we're going all over the place in this topic. Sucker Punch, at half the size of VALVe, can easily make quality games as well as Naughty Dog and Insomniac. My argument isn't that VALVe doesn't have alot on it's plate or that they're too lazy, my argument is that because there are quality games on PS3, regardless of the "complexity" of the PS3, what VALVe is saying is utterly useless coupled with the fact that they've done next to nothing with the hardware.

 

[Woe Is You]

So just now we're starting to push in "VALVe has STEAM so they can't work on anything else!" and to most extents you're right, but I think we're pulling a straw-man/ad homeniem here.

I'm not seeing any ad hominems or strawmen thrown, though "Valve has Steam so they can't work on anything else!" is a pretty distorted version of what I've been trying to say.

Your points have been about highlighting how small the teams in the companies you listed are, so it's natural that it's pointed out Valve is a pretty small company compared to what they have on their plate, which is a staggering amount of current and future projects. Plus they already have their pipelines in place and no actual guarantee of a 30% increase in sales that people cite here. While the PS3 userbase is indeed 22 million plus people, a good share of those probably also own other platforms. See the rather dismal sales of The Orange Box on the PS3 as opposed to other platforms, for example. For them, sweating with the PS3 just isn't worth it.

Furthermore, what Tom is saying is actually a bit different from the bile Gabe was spewing in 2007: he himself can't be bothered to sweat with tech just for the sake of sweating with it and would rather concentrate on other things. That's a pretty important distinction.

 

[Bat Vader]

STEAM is runned by VALVe, STEAM costs alot of money to run and keep it working.

Sucker Punch doesn't have a huge business to take care of, they only do games, therefor they can devote more time and money into doing those games.

VALVe spent the last year making STEAM going from the F that those business thingie ratings to the A they got this April.

To make it short they spent last year perfecting a business.

And the point is SuckerPunch only makes games VALVe makes games and runs a huge business.

That Valve is running it? That perhaps Valve has a lot more on their plate than companies like Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch? Sucker Punch may have about half the employees Valve has but they also have to worry about one or two projects at a time. Valve on the other hand... Contrary to what you've said, L4D has gotten new content (and a beta SDK), TF2 has had new content, they've got to run Steam and they're working on churning out new games (Episode 3, L4D, Portal 2 of the games we know at least).

So just now we're starting to push in "VALVe has STEAM so they can't work on anything else!" and to most extents you're right, but I think we're pulling a straw-man/ad homeniem here. I'm not claiming that VALVe doesn't have alot on it's plate, i'm saying (or at least one of the things I'm saying) is that at half the size of VALVe, Sucker Punch still produces great games for the PS3 regardless of it's "complexity"

VALVe makes more than enough money to run STEAM and they handle plenty of things at once, but let's steer this sucker back on the real topic; VALVe saying that the complexity somehow degenerates quality from a title.

We're not talking about platforms or how much VALVe has on their plate, though we're going all over the place in this topic. Sucker Punch, at half the size of VALVe, can easily make quality games as well as Naughty Dog and Insomniac. My argument isn't that VALVe doesn't have alot on it's plate or that they're too lazy, my argument is that because there are quality games on PS3, regardless of the "complexity" of the PS3, what VALVe is saying is utterly useless coupled with the fact that they've done next to nothing with the hardware.

What is the big deal about Valve not porting games to the PS3? There are games for the PS3 I want on the 360 but that will not happen and so I will have to buy a PS3. If people want to play Valve games they will have to buy the PC or console that runs those games.

Complaining about it will not make things better it will only serve to create more flamewars and make people more angry. If Valve says the PS3 hinders development we should respect their decision and leave it at that.