Valve to Indie Devs: Don't Use Publishers to Bypass Greenlight

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I disagree with Valve on this one. These guys have a publisher now. They are no longer independent. Let them publish the freakin' game.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

So indie devs now have the opportunity to pay money to be locked into a system that might possibly maybe allow them to be published on Steam if enough people who have never played their game like it? Wow, Greenlight is fucking terrible!

 

[FancyNick]

The way I see it: These guys started greenlight in an effort to see their indie title released on steam. Then Adultswim offered to be their publisher and help them out for a cut. No longer being indie, this disqualifies them in the greenlight process. Now this shouldn't get them through the system on a free pass but can't they pull out of greenlight (No refunds most likely) and then re-release this game through normal channels under Adultswim's publishing? Or was Steam not letting them do that the whole point of this article? It's late and I am having trouble thinking straight.

 

[Cecilo]

We throw around the word entitlement a lot here. Basically what these devs are, is entitled. Basically they do not want to do the hard work to get themselves Greenlit. And all of you people who are saying Valve is in the wrong here, need to understand that Valve isn't trying to be evil about this, they are trying to curb a bad practice, they are trying to get developers to stop going "It's to harrddddddddd, lets just get a publisher"

 

[Smooth Operator]

And this is where Valve starts to get nasty, they are too big for their own good and now absurd rules can be enforced just because they can't be arsed to change.

All this does is lock you into Valve publishing without the privilege of having the game released.

 

[Doom972]

I like Valve, but this is definitely a dick move. If they have a publisher, then they are no longer indie.
Paranautical does look like a good game.
I might start buying games on Desura (like Paranautical) if Valve continue this way.

 

[BartyMae]

So...basically, Valve isn't letting them cheat. Sucks for them, sort of, but it seems O.K. to me. If the game couldn't garner enough support to be published via Greenlight, why should they be allowed to ignore that and have it be published via an actual publisher?

Since this isn't a game I really care about, I kind of view this as a good thing...though I can see how it'd be easy to take the opposite view if I did...

 

[MahouSniper]

To use a quick metaphor, I'm going to the Cleveland anime con called Colossalcon this weekend. However, I have basically no money. I do, however, know a staff member, Steam, who was nice enough to point out I can work for the con to work off the cost of my badge through Greenlight, thus allowing me to afford it.

Now, what has happened here is my dad, Adult Swim, has decided he's going to front the cost of the badge so I don't need to spend time working off my badge and can instead improve my con experience, the game. However, Steam has said that since I already agreed to work off my badge, I can't take my dad's offer and instead must do it their way or I don't get entry at all.

This seems a bit unfair to the devs and against the general idea of Greenlight, despite the whole "bad precedent" argument.

 

[bjj hero]

Imagine a contestant on American Idol halfway through the competition got signed to a record label. Would they then automatically win that season of American Idol? No. They're on the show to compete for contract available to the winner, because their agreement with the show precedes their agreement with another label. Nothing is stopping the contestant from throwing his performance or dipping out of the show. But you're not going to get a contract through the show without finishing the competition. The new contract does not negate the prior obligation. It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

I see it more as entering AI and getting signed part way through... Then all of the biggest music stores in the country (who for this analogy, have a financial interest in AI) refuse to sell your music unless you stay on and then win AI. You could always try to selling your CDs at car boot sales instead I guess.

This is a real dick move by Valve but its never a good situation when there is a monopoly, very much like Steam does over digital distribution. Valve have a lot of clout, as an indie/small dev you are highly unlikely to get anywhere without being on Steam.

And to me this looks like valve know this and are using it to bully a 2 man development team. Bravo.

Green light is an awful system. Youre a 2 man team so you work all of the hours you have on your indie title, then Valve expect you to run around whoring for votes instead of working on your game making it the best it can be. If its your only real option then you have to play along but bullying someone into going through with it when they dont have to is the wrong call, unless youre into self serving douchebaggery.

 

[weirdee]

You can what?

the world's fate depends on the end of that sentence and it's not there...

(apparently due to formatting)

Anyway, the Facebook comment below succinctly describes the deeper reasoning behind the decision. Yall need to shape up your writing if you don't want to be outdone by a Facebook comment.

 

[thethird0611]

Spoiler

Very good.
Throw away your freedom as indie developer just to get your game out faster? Nope.avi

Adult Swim has done -alot- for the PA guys and hasnt interfered nearly at all with the game.

I actually got to hear them in a stream with a youtuber, and they even talked to the stream happily. It was an off the cuff interview to, so alot more was told than in a 'normal' interview. They pretty much have all the say in the game, the only time they mentioned the publisher was when they were saying how Adult Swim was helping with advertising and publishing.

So, to put this in simple terms.

VALVE DID FUCK UP.

Greenlight was supposed to be a way to skim through indie games and take out the good ones, while leaving out the bad ones. PA, an indie game, actually caught the eye of a big publisher who would pay the cost for them, which should tell Valve that this game is good enough to skip the greenlight process.

So yeah...

I wasn't saying that this specific case is bad.
However, please don't forget that most publishers are soulless, lazy companies that make money from other people's work.
I'd like to point you to the game "Ace of Spades". It was a great indie game, but the developer ran out of money. Fortunately, noble publisher "Jagex" stepped in to help the developer out and take care of the Stream release.
Long story short:
They took the game in a totally different direction, which alienated the beta playerbase and made the developer unhappy. The original developer isn't part of the team anymore and has lost the rights for his own creation. They released a bastardized version of a game that is nothing like its beta, undermining the whole concept of the originals gameplay, as a money grab under a popular name.
Their moderators/admins on the forums are utter dicks who ban everyone who just mentions the original.
I don't care anymore, but they wanted to release a "classic mode". As played DLC of course.
A CONTRACT WITH A PUBLISHER USUALLY IS A ONE-WAY TICKET FOR YOUR IP.
If indie developers would start doing this in masses now...Christ.
Most wouldn't get happy in the long run.

So far, even after what you said, I'm not angry at Valve. But after being the moral police, now they have to do their part and actually take care of the complaints that there are about Greenlight.

Im not trying to be an ass here, but your whole post over PA getting a publisher and getting told off by Valve was...

"Very good.
Throw away your freedom as indie developer just to get your game out faster? Nope.avi"

You are saying,
"Very good Paranautical Activity Devs.
You threw away your freedom as indie developer just to get your game out faster? Nope.avi"

So...
"I wasn't saying that this specific case is bad."

Doesnt seem to really make sense. Thats why I quoted you and cleared the air on your first comment.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

they are trying to get developers to stop going "It's to harrddddddddd, lets just get a publisher"

Oh, you mean kind of like how Valve decided that sorting through submissions was too hard, so they decided to just get the community to do it instead?

 

[teebeeohh]

I get why valve did this but ky god greenlight is broken, at this point I am not sure if they shouldn't just shut the whole thing down instead of having it run till replacement greenlight comes around

 

[Do4600]

Doesn't that defeat the point of Greenlight?

Indeed, but Greenlight seems so broken it seems moot. It also seems like a dick move to stop people from trying to get a better shake.

They already agreed to the terms of Valve's contract when they entered greenlight. Greenlight is essentially publishing by contest, Valve has a stake in the game's success now by contract. If you contract yourself to another publisher you're only splitting your share of the profits from the contract with valve.

Forgoing the contest violates the financial agreement Valve has with the creators. The contest is a means of gauging public support and interest in the game. Basically it's a means of lowing the risk on investments Valve makes in these indie games. If Valve released the contract they would be throwing away a potentially lucrative contract that they by all right should have a stake in by giving the creators a chance to publish their game.

The real moral of the story is if these creators wanted the option to freely choose such things they shouldn't have agreed to the terms of greenlight. Valve might be the only reason these creators were seen by Adult Swim to begin with, so really Valve is fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Just because a shinier deal comes along doesn't mean it voids your previous contract, that's business and it requires a great deal of forethought to succeed in such an independent venture.

 

[thethird0611]

Only reason im quoting is that I have heard alot from the PA devs, and I support them ALOT, so im doing my part.

Spoiler

We throw around the word entitlement a lot here. Basically what these devs are, is entitled. Basically they do not want to do the hard work to get themselves Greenlit. And all of you people who are saying Valve is in the wrong here, need to understand that Valve isn't trying to be evil about this, they are trying to curb a bad practice, they are trying to get developers to stop going "It's to harrddddddddd, lets just get a publisher"

The thing is, people arent going to say "We will give you money for your game for a cut of the profits" if they arent going to get their investment and more back. That means getting a publishers means that your game has a good chance of being successful.

Spoiler

So...basically, Valve isn't letting them cheat. Sucks for them, sort of, but it seems O.K. to me. If the game couldn't garner enough support to be published via Greenlight, why should they be allowed to ignore that and have it be published via an actual publisher?

Since this isn't a game I really care about, I kind of view this as a good thing...though I can see how it'd be easy to take the opposite view if I did...

The thing is, this isnt 'cheating'. The PA devs werent looking for a publisher to get around the greenlight process, they did it to have financial support. Adult Swim then went to Valve and said they would pay all the cost for PA to be published on Steam, and Valve didnt like it. Why should shitty movie tie ins be able to get published on Steam without greenlight, when a good game like this (which I have played and it is great), have to go through greenlight when their expenses are paid. Also, see the quote above yours, theres a reason that Adult Swim is making an investment.

Getting support on Greenlight means near nothing about true interest in your game. Many devs who went through greenlight even said the system is horrible, and that the 'greenlight community' does not give anywhere near a good representation.

Spoiler

I can see the issue here: Greenlight is basically it's own Indie-style contract system with Valve. The contract gets 'signed' when the votes and reviews actually give it the 'greelight'. The problem I can see Valve having is that this other competing publisher (Adult Swim Games Inc.) tried signing with someone who's already signed, just to try to go with the same system (Steam). I totally understand why they said "no go" like they did.

Exactly. Valve's principles on this are very reasonable; what's the point of the greenlight system if you can just cheat your way to the finish line (because you have a publisher to front the risky cash instead of steam)? Besides, if they have a publisher now, they aren't indie anymore. Indie means independent of a publisher, as far as I am aware. Not saying that OH GAWD THEY IS EBIL NAO, what I mean is that they don't need to pray to get picked up by someone anymore: they JUST GOT picked up. Sighs of relief all-round.

With this publisher though, if they don't like what steams doing to them, they could just self publish on Adult Swim or their own site, or go with greenman or gog. It's not like steam is some digital overlord that is somehow able to permanently block their sales the world over.

Valve is right in preventing a bad precedent from being set.

I find myself agreeing with both of you. Not because I'm a Valve fanboy, but because you make the most sense.

It's Valve's service, and this is how they've set up to allow indie (without a publisher) games to be released on Steam. Valve doesn't have to offer this at all. Whether or not it's broken or a failure is another debate for another time, this is about Greenlight as it stands now. They had no publisher and approached Valve on Valve's own terms, because Valve controls distribution on Steam. The developers wanted to get on Steam, and they were willing to jump through the hoops to attempt to get there.

Now they have acquired a publisher, but they're still under obligation to move through the Greenlight process. Why? Because it's Valve's program, and unless they have an explicit clause that allows to bypass it if you get a publisher, then you're beholden by your original agreement. The developer still needs to jump through said hoops to get on Steam without a publisher. Now (as far as I know) there is nothing that prevents Adult Swim from helping to advertise the game and it's Greenlight campaign, or to get it published on Greenman or Good Old Games. But the developers are still 'under contract' vis-a-vis their original agreement with Valve. Their new contract with Adult Swim does not negate their prior agreement with Valve.

Now whether or not Valve could or should allow them to back out of their Greenlight and come back as a regular published title is debatable. However they're under no obligation to do so. I can also understand their perspective of not wanting to set a precedent. If they had wanted to allow this to happen, then it would already be in agreement for Greenlight, and this would all be a non issue.

I have no idea what other contributing factors are involved from Valve's end. I imagine that this service is costing them money, in both server bandwidth and manpower. Valve had to set this system up and manage it, and it is a work in progress. Remember what Steam was like at first? You have to give them the much deserved credit and benefit of the doubt, in that their service has evolved for the better; I hope that Greenlight will follow suite.

Imagine a contestant on American Idol halfway through the competition got signed to a record label. Would they then automatically win that season of American Idol? No. They're on the show to compete for contract available to the winner, because their agreement with the show precedes their agreement with another label. Nothing is stopping the contestant from throwing his performance or dipping out of the show. But you're not going to get a contract through the show without finishing the competition. The new contract does not negate the prior obligation. It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

Buddy, I hate to say it, but you are leaning to the side of just favoring Valve because they are Valve. Either that, or you just have alot of misconceptions.

First off, Greenlight is Valve's way of making money by keeping good indie games growing in their catalog. The system is only to weed out bad games to games that they can make a big profit on. Your comment about "Valve doesnt have to allow this at all", is null, since they allow it to -make a profit-. They dont have to, but its a large chuck of change they take from their wallet if they dont have it. Also, the PA dev's didnt get a publisher to jump through hoops to get on Steam, Adult Swim picked them up to make an investment with marketing and development so that they could make a -profit- off of Paranautical Activity, which means that it is probably a good game. Adult Swim than went to Steam, because they have a near monopoly on the Digital Distribution platform. (PA is published on Desura and some other site at this point to).

From what I tried to find, Greenlight games are not under contract that they cannot get a publisher. Hell, even community greenlit games can be shot down by Valve. Greenlight pretty much just highlights the games that Valve could make money on. So, PA gets an investor, which says someone big thinks this would make a profit to both them and Valve, and Valve shoots it down because it doesn't like the flaws in its system? Yeah....

Oh, here is one for you. If PA were to of gotten Ubisoft's (or hell, VALVE's attention), would they be allowed to get past greenlight?

Now, to this point that really makes me think you are an apologist for Valve... You say this whole greenlight thing is an altruistic system because Valve cares about indie's getting spot lit, published, and get popular. No.
Greenlight is Valves way to make money off of indie games. Before, Valve had to either go through EVERY indie game to find gems, or publish bad indie games. Instead, they pushed that workload off to the community. The process for Valve pretty much is to make the community find Indie game Gems that they can make -a lot- of money off of. It probably is MUCH more profitable for Valve to have Greenlight than what they had before.

My last point... your example has no relevance to the situation.
1. There is only 1 winner in AI
2. AI doesnt make a profit off of a winner in the long term.
3. Greenlight is not a competition.
4. AI does not have a monopoly on digital Distribution, so it wouldnt be at all bad to drop out of the competition if you were offered -a lot- of money to do your thing with a publisher.

 

[thethird0611]

Spoiler

Doesn't that defeat the point of Greenlight?

Indeed, but Greenlight seems so broken it seems moot. It also seems like a dick move to stop people from trying to get a better shake.

They already agreed to the terms of Valve's contract when they entered greenlight. Greenlight is essentially publishing by contest, Valve has a stake in the game's success now by contract. If you contract yourself to another publisher you're only splitting your share of the profits from the contract with valve.

Forgoing the contest violates the financial agreement Valve has with the creators. The contest is a means of gauging public support and interest in the game. Basically it's a means of lowing the risk on investments Valve makes in these indie games. If Valve released the contract they would be throwing away a potentially lucrative contract that they by all right should have a stake in by giving the creators a chance to publish their game.

The real moral of the story is if these creators wanted the option to freely choose such things they shouldn't have agreed to the terms of greenlight. Valve might be the only reason these creators were seen by Adult Swim to begin with, so really Valve is fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Just because a shinier deal comes along doesn't mean it voids your previous contract, that's business and it requires a great deal of forethought to succeed in such an independent venture.

Actually, Valve has a 30% take in any game sold from Steam, whether its by a publisher or indie (unless there is a special contract). If they were to publish PA from Adult Swim, than Valve would get the 30%, AS would take their share from the 70% left, then PA would get the rest.

Also, PA was seen by people because they worked their asses off to work with major Let's Players, get interviews with bigger people, and all around get the word out about their game. They gave a hell of a lot of free codes out in the process.

Also, I bet quite a bit that there is nothing in the greenlight contract that says anything about getting off the greenlight system (which you are free to do at anytime), and having a publisher help to pay your way into Steam. That is the major part of why Indie's arent published on Steam, because the cost is a lot more than Indie's can afford, thats where Greenlight comes in. If they find a way over that hump, then its a bad business deal for Valve since not only has the game found a BIG INVESTOR, they can also pay all the operating cost while Valve gets their profits.

This is both a bad business decision and a pad public decision.

 

[Pilkingtube]

Surely you're not indie if you have a publisher?