Valve to Indie Devs: Don't Use Publishers to Bypass Greenlight

[AzrealMaximillion]

Just pointing out that bypassing Greenlight resulted in games like The War Z.

They didn't bypass Greenlight for a simple reason. The company had successfully published a game on Steam already and that make them exempt from Greenlight completely.

How about the fact that other indie titles in recent memory on Steam have already bypassed the Greenlight process?

Anyone here want to discuss that? Or is Valve Defence Force going to ignore that fact.

Who here wants to explain Loadout suddenly showing up on Steam?

The Night of The Rabbit?

To The Moon?

Just saying, the argument that indie devs HAVE to use Greenlight to get their game on Steam is a null point when a good bunch of indie games in recent memory have been placed on Steam before games that were Greenlit last freaking summer.

I get why FEZ and Dust and Elysian Tail got a pass considering their mild XBLA success, but Strike Suit Infinity, Don't Starve, Xenonauts, Prison Architect, and Kerbel Space Program are all indie games with no publisher that got picked up and put on Steam. Some are still in Alpha/Beta.


Why does Paranautical Activity get screwed? Why are 65 other already Greenlight titles (most of which are complete) get screwed?

Someone explain that to me and convince me that this isn't a dick move by Valve.

 

[Orks da best]

I like how more people are dislike valve in thread, brings me much joy and hope in gamers.

That said if this was another publisher the amount would be worse so there is still some of that blind love for valve hanging about.

now then, off to some Path of exile, tally ho!

 

[Weaver]

Greenlight is the biggest pile of shit Valve has ever created. It's incredibly open to gaming the system. You basically need a news outlet to pick up on your greenlight application or get featured on a youtube channel (everything from greenlight on TB's channel basically makes it).

I have no doubt in my mind that there are donzens of amazing games on there that are basically collecting dust, yet no one can find them because the greenlight interface is fundamentally broken by design.

 

[Jingle Fett]

Valve: If you put your game on greenlight, the only way to get on Steam is by being approved on Greenlight.

Developer: I'll put my game up on greenlight, but if I find a publisher that means I can automatically get on Steam right?

Valve: No. See first comment.

I don't see a problem here, Valve is trying to not set a bad precedent. Having a publisher doesn't mean you automatically get on Steam. If someone puts their games on Greenlight and then finds a publisher, that shouldn't get them a free pass. Not every game that had a publisher got accepted onto Steam even before greenlight. Having a publisher doesn't mean it will sell well on Steam, and it doesn't mean people on Steam will be interested in it. That's what Greenlight is for.

 

[lordmardok]

Doesn't that defeat the point of Greenlight? They got a chance and because of Greenlight now have to forgo that chance.

To use a quick metaphor, I'm going to the Cleveland anime con called Colossalcon this weekend. However, I have basically no money. I do, however, know a staff member, Steam, who was nice enough to point out I can work for the con to work off the cost of my badge through Greenlight, thus allowing me to afford it.

Now, what has happened here is my dad, Adult Swim, has decided he's going to front the cost of the badge so I don't need to spend time working off my badge and can instead improve my con experience, the game. However, Steam has said that since I already agreed to work off my badge, I can't take my dad's offer and instead must do it their way or I don't get entry at all.

This seems a bit unfair to the devs and against the general idea of Greenlight, despite the whole "bad precedent" argument.

This isn't really concerning the major topic. The reason that Valve isn't letting Code Avarice out of their contract is because, one, they signed a fucking contract. That's actually a really big deal, they agreed to terms of service when they got on the Project Greenlight they signed it and that was that. They made a promise and then tried to renege on it the moment an easy solution popped up. That's what most people would call a 'Dick Move' if they didn't have their heads up their arses. A second reason being that Code Avarice got a bunch of effectively free publicity for their game by using Steam's Greenlight and now they're trying to back out of it and go against the very reason Greenlight was founded: For the sake of reducing the effect that Publishers have on Indie developers.

TLDR; Code Avarice is being childish and selfish, using Greenlight to get their publicity then back out and take a publishers deal and money because they don't want to market it on GL anymore.

As a postscript: The reason some devs are unhappy with Greenlight is because they didn't get the response they wanted. They put their game out and people said: No, we wouldn't play that. Which, while being a hard pill to swallow, is exactly what Greenlight is SUPPOSED to do.

 

[Formica Archonis]

A second reason being that Code Avarice got a bunch of effectively free publicity for their game by using Steam's Greenlight and now they're trying to back out of it and go against the very reason Greenlight was founded: For the sake of reducing the effect that Publishers have on Indie developers.

What advertising did Greenlight provide to the project?

As a postscript: The reason some devs are unhappy with Greenlight is because they didn't get the response they wanted. They put their game out and people said: No, we wouldn't play that. Which, while being a hard pill to swallow, is exactly what Greenlight is SUPPOSED to do.

In what way does poor public response on one venue require them to not try other avenues of profit? If some sucker is willing to give them money to publish the game, then why can't they take advantage of it? Would a $50,000 Kickstarter be less deserving of the money if 10 people donated $5,000 each than if 5000 people donated $10 each?

 

[Pilkingtube]

Surely you're not indie if you have a publisher?

Nice try but no. Starbound. Being published by and indie publisher. The same one that made Wanderlust. You buy Wanderlust, a portion of the proceeds goes to publishing Starbound.

Wait what? Indie means independent yes? Surely Activision is an independent studio then since they self-publish and aren't owned by anybody? I don't understand where this vague notion of "indie" ends and you just become another guy making a game published by a company, is it a set number of people and you're not indie like 10 or more?

 

[Varis]

I always thought that the point of Greenlight was to make it easier for indie developers to get their games "out in the open" so to speak. A generous gesture, as it could be thought of.

But, now when an indie game is actually getting backing and possibly being published by another, they decide that they must settle for the Greenlight and what it entails. Which certainly seems Valve being covering it's own bases. They want money, they don't want to share.

I for one, think that indie developers are lucky to have such means, like Greenlight, (which could adjust it's policies here and there but anyway) to gain publicity. Of course, there will be rules and regulations, as there should be. However, I think those rules should never hamper the game's future.

 

[Ympulse]

It's too bad everyone is too sheepishly devoted to Valve to see this for what it is; A well-executed market cornering on the Indie scene, giving them the "for the little guy" PR that guarantees support from nearly everyone because of basic human nature. It's a Xanatos gambit, to be sure, and until now has been executed flawlessly.

Oh well, they'll release a teaser for HL3 and it will be forgotten, and the sheep will continue to throw money at EA's more charismatic twin. Sigh.

 

[Vzzdak]

Valve is correct to protect Greenlight and indie developers.

-Valve brings a huge audience of potential customers that are willing to volunteer their time to provide free evaluation of the indie in-progress work.

-If it became normal for indies to change their mind and take their work elsewhere, then valve customers would contribute less time to other potentially good titles.

-Also, publishers would happily use Greenlight as free publicity, pretending that the game didn't have funding and then yank it when they were ready to release.

-As someone mentioned, if people become enthusiastic for a game that is being previewed in Greenlight, then there would only be disappointment and annoyance if a publisher then acquired rights [of the vulnerable indie] and then completely changed the game to something more "marketable."

 

[EvolutionKills]

*SNIP*

The thing is when Adult Swim offered to become there publisher they wanted to leave greenlight but Valve said if they did they would not allow there game to be on Steam at all which a death sentence for indie games in today's marketplace.

This leaves them with a choice get published by Adult swim and get no sales or stay on greenlight on the off chance one day in the future Valve will put there game on Steam and then maybe get sales.

For brevity, I'll just re-post an earlier response you might have missed.

[Ctrl+C]
[Ctrl+V]

Like I said, it's not an ideal situation. Valve does have a good chunk of the market, but is it any worse than the control that Microsoft has over Xbox Live Arcade? The control that Sony has over Playstation Network? Apple and iTunes? They have actual monopolies over their respective online services and hardware. Valve does not have a monopoly on the PC. This game does have more options for a PC release than it would with a console release. If Microsoft denies your game from being released on the Xbox, you cannot legally circumvent it. So in this regard, Valve's position isn't even as strong as the console makers. Now take into account that Valve DOES NOT OWE ANYBODY a free shot on their digital distribution service. This takes up time and money from Valve, in bandwidth and manpower. They opened the doors to the public, but under a very specific set of circumstances. If they don't like Valve's offer, they don't have to distribute on Steam. Developers have other options (Greenman, GOG, Kickstarter, etc.), maybe not as ideal, but they do have options. If they choose to pursue Greenlight, that is their choice.

Ultimately, it's Valve's service and they make the rules. If you as a consumer don't like it, by all means let Valve know. But they are well within their rights to do what they did, and I find it hard to fault them for it. I can understand wanting to rally behind the underdog, but I don't think anybody is in the wrong here. It's a odd situation and Valve made a judgement call in according to their best interests. They're not evil, they're not being dicks. They are a business making a business decision. Keeping in mind that Greenlight, as broken as it may be, is still a better olive branch to the indie development scene than anything available on the major consoles.

[/end]


Now with that being said. To everyone complaining about this:

How many of you have gone onto Steam Greenlight and Up-voted this project?

How many have complained to Steam to let them know they think Valve made the wrong move?


Talking about it here is all well and good, but nothing is going to change if we just sit here talking to ourselves. I have no problem with what Valve did, but if you do happen to have a problem with it, then actually do something about it. I'm not going to up-vote the game because I have no interest in playing it, it's not my thing. But if you think that Valve is giving them the shaft, then help them out by Up-voting their project. That is how you can really help out the developers.

Also, now that the game has a publisher, that opens up more doors for them. Now they have a chance to get their game on iOS, Xbox Live, and the Playstation Network. They now have someone to help them advertise their product and help it reach a more powerful critical awareness. This can also help them get passed on Greenlight, Adult Swim can help them run a PR campaign to get the up-votes they need. Adult Swim picking up the game has opened up a number of other doors to them. Valve is just saying that the developers still need to stick to their original agreement to get through their door to Steam. Because Valve has other obligation and concerns (such as setting a precedent to deter possible future predatory actions by publishers against other indie developers), but ultimately their interest come first in regards to their service. Steam is still a business, and Valve made business decision. Time will tell if it was a good one or not.

 

[Patathatapon]

My understanding on why some greenlit titles aren't out yet is because the developers haven't finished the game completely. Also, Valve is a business, so what? It's not like they're telling us that we WILL like their new gimmicks, or they're trying to make us on the internet playing a game that doesn't need it ALL the time.

Or is it because "VALVE IS OUR GOD, THEY COULD NEVER DO THAT"? And yeah, greenlight sucks, so what? It'll be replaced by something else eventually. Maybe the Xbox One arcade (HA! not fuckin likely!)

 

[Caiphus]

Indie devs to Valve: Make Greenlight less obnoxiously useless.

Or words to that effect. Greenlight is not Valve's finest hour, is what I'm trying to say.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Surely you're not indie if you have a publisher?

Nice try but no. Starbound. Being published by and indie publisher. The same one that made Wanderlust. You buy Wanderlust, a portion of the proceeds goes to publishing Starbound.

Wait what? Indie means independent yes? Surely Activision is an independent studio then since they self-publish and aren't owned by anybody? I don't understand where this vague notion of "indie" ends and you just become another guy making a game published by a company, is it a set number of people and you're not indie like 10 or more?

Again, simple explanation. Indie studios aren't publicly traded on the stock market. Nor are they corporations. They are literally supporting themselves.

No stockholders buying pieces of their company.

No extra benefits from being incorporated.

No massive advantage.


So again, no. Indie doesn't end when someone publishes your game. Adult Swim publishing a game doesn't automatically wipe the indie status of said game. By your logic any game put on the XBLA indie market is no longer indie due to the fact that Microsoft is name publisher for ALL of them. We both know that's not true.

Indie games get big companies to publish their games all the time. Bastion was published by Warner Brothers, still an indie game. Its more than semantics.


EDIT: To your point about Activision, they publish, but don't develop, so no they no not self publish. They have contracts/own a lot of development companies.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

I am not justifying what valve did. All I said was how War Z got on steam. That was it.

I get that. My response was more of an open challenge to the half assed points being made in favour of Valve here which no one can seem to debate.

I should have made that more clear, I apologize.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Valve is correct to protect Greenlight and indie developers.

-Valve brings a huge audience of potential customers that are willing to volunteer their time to provide free evaluation of the indie in-progress work.

-If it became normal for indies to change their mind and take their work elsewhere, then valve customers would contribute less time to other potentially good titles.

-Also, publishers would happily use Greenlight as free publicity, pretending that the game didn't have funding and then yank it when they were ready to release.

-As someone mentioned, if people become enthusiastic for a game that is being previewed in Greenlight, then there would only be disappointment and annoyance if a publisher then acquired rights [of the vulnerable indie] and then completely changed the game to something more "marketable."

The problems is that Valve itslef has let dozens of indie titles skip the Greenlight process in the last year alone, making them look like hypocrites in a massive way here.

Them not letting Adult Swim publish PA is a silly move when you consider that the following indie titles have skipped Greenlight since its inception:
Loadout
FEZ
To The Moon
Strike Suit Infinity
Don't Starve
Xenonauts
Prison Architect
Kerbel Space Program
and dozens more.

Some of the games I listed aren't even finished yet there are at least a couple dozens games Greenlit last year that are done and ready to go, yet have seen no release by Valve.

If you can explain to me how you think Valve is protecting the broken system that is Greenlight is any fair when they themselves have let so many games slide past, please do so.

Until then, I'm calling bullshit on Valve. Its like a bouncer not letting you come into the club when your VIP buddy wants you in, then letting his friends in no problem.

 

[Pilkingtube]

Surely you're not indie if you have a publisher?

Nice try but no. Starbound. Being published by and indie publisher. The same one that made Wanderlust. You buy Wanderlust, a portion of the proceeds goes to publishing Starbound.

Wait what? Indie means independent yes? Surely Activision is an independent studio then since they self-publish and aren't owned by anybody? I don't understand where this vague notion of "indie" ends and you just become another guy making a game published by a company, is it a set number of people and you're not indie like 10 or more?

Again, simple explanation. Indie studios aren't publicly traded on the stock market. Nor are they corporations. They are literally supporting themselves.

No stockholders buying pieces of their company.

No extra benefits from being incorporated.

No massive advantage.


So again, no. Indie doesn't end when someone publishes your game. Adult Swim publishing a game doesn't automatically wipe the indie status of said game. By your logic any game put on the XBLA indie market is no longer indie due to the fact that Microsoft is name publisher for ALL of them. We both know that's not true.

Indie games get big companies to publish their games all the time. Bastion was published by Warner Brothers, still an indie game. Its more than semantics.


EDIT: To your point about Activision, they publish, but don't develop, so no they no not self publish. They have contracts/own a lot of development companies.

But again there are plenty of private companies such as valve which don't have stockholders, there are small companies which are publicly traded too, stockholders don't really provide a "massive advantage" in so far as they are then able to dictate direction within the company, it is more of a trade-off than a flat out advantage.

Honestly I just think this holy grail concept of "Indie" has been so diluted that it's essentially meaningless, even companies such as EA have "indie" departments which in and of itself is bizarre.

EDIT: Also Activision, Inc. is the listed developer for many games, just not any big ones recently. http://www.allgame.com/company.php?id=34&tab=developed shows a list of games which they are listed as developer rather than publisher.