Veganism...why?

[peruvianskys]

Did you just equate eating meat to the slave trade? Man, sorry to point this out, but if you are this mental about meat you are the kind of people who give vegetarians a bad name.

If by "equating" you mean that I claimed they were both equally lacking in moral justification, then yes.



Just... Chill out a bit.

I know you find it distasteful but your reaction reminds me of that simpsons episode. You can have your beliefs about food but you should not try and impose your beliefs on others. I dont push religion on people, my sister doesn't push her vegetarianism on me or her bloke. Sure, she wont cook food in a pan that has had meat in it unless it has been washed but that is sorta the extent of it.

Am I pushing my veganism on anyone? Of course not. You're free to do whatever you want!

Eating meat is totally natural. Enslaving others? Not so much (Although it has been done for centuries, do not try and equate the two).

Both are very much natural human functions. We've done both for thousands of years.

I get you find it immoral but seriously, do not equate cows being forced to give us milk to the slave trade or the exploitation of people who have severe retardation.

I believe in animal rights. I dont think needless animal cruelty is a good thing. And if research shows an animal has higher functions (Sense of self, in particular) I care a hell of a lot about their welfare.

Then why do you continue to support a system that kills animals for food? If you can afford a computer and an internet connection, you don't need to eat animal products. It's nice to say, "I'm against animal cruelty," but if you still pay money to make more of it happen, then I don't really care.

 

[Secret world leader (shhh)]

snipitty snip

My line of thinking goes like this: if it weren't for insect-eating animals, the insect population would boom out of control and ruin everything for everyone else. If it weren't for animals that eat insect-eating animals, there would be too many insect-eating aninals and thusly too little insects. We have a role in the food chain that must be played just like every other meat-eater. Despite our intelligence, we're part of nature just as much as any other animal.

 

[peruvianskys]

They're simply fools. In a harsher world they would die and the rest of us omnivores, which we are, would continue to live just fine. Without our padded little life you can't just eat half of a human diet and expect to survive. Also, I'm a beef producer, so if you have any questions about our practices, feel free to ask

Isn't it wonderful that we live in a world where we don't have to rely on cruelty and slaughter to survive? That "padded little life" is the same life that lets us heat our homes without children in coal mines and harvest vegetables without slaves in our fields.

Not all progress is bad, Mr. Cromagnon.

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

A number of reasons:

1. Health reasons. Some people believe that an animal product/by-product free diet is better for you.

2. Moral reasons. These come in two flavours; negative vegans/vegetarians and positive vegans/vegetarians.
Positive veggies are vegetarian for boycott reasons, they believe that the production methods of these animal products are cruel but could be improved to the point where their production wouldn't be immoral in and of itself. So, they boycott the product until such time as the industry improves its standards.
Negative vegetarians/vegans believe that the exploitation of animals for food and clothing is and would be wrong under any circumstances so they don't partake in it.
3. Spiritual/religious reasons, I suppose? I'm not religious or superstitious in any way, shape or form so I won't comment further on this.

For my own part, I was vegetarian for years and took the vegan plunge a couple of years ago. My reasoning was that if you're vegetarian for moral reasons, it's logically and morally dishonest not to be vegan because you can't have a dairy industry without a meat industry, it doesn't make economic sense, they work hand in glove with each-other. If you consume dairy, you're still supporting the meat industry.

As for the "What would happen to the animals/these animals wouldn't exist" arguments I'd say this. For the animals that are already bred, I don't think any of us, barring the most zealous, unrealistic and naive vegans (read: crazy), believe that the world would turn vegetarian overnight. If it were to happen, it would happen gradually, and the production of these animals would decrease in line with that. As for the animals that would never exist in future, I don't place value on potential life, it doesn't exist so it can't be subject to any significant interests.

Speaking of significant interests, that's my main moral reason for not partaking of animal products as best I can. I don't see any moral difference between humans and non-human animals. We're subject to the principle of significant interest; we can feel pain, fear etc so we should be treated accordingly (for instance, if, as some have suggested, molluscs like oysters and mussels have no more capacity for pain than a cabbage, then morally I'd have no problem eating them).

As for the argument that the production of plants involves the killing of animals too (I don't have any figures on this so I don't know how true or untrue this claim is), I'd probably invoke the doctrine of double effect (google it, there'll be loads of articles on it that could probably explain better than I could). I don't think any system is perfect but you should do the best you can.

Finally, on a personal note, pleeeeease don't lump me in with hippies and PETA. I don't support PETA, I loathe them for their policies and for making my side look bad. Secondly, I don't wear dangly earrings, I'm not obsessed with hemp, I don't believe that crystals have Powers (they're pretty, mind) or believe any other supernatural stuff like that. I hate PETA. I don't hate hippies, I just think they're silly.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Because eating animals "is immoral and unnatural." That's what the only vegan I've known says. Oh and "humans are actually herbivores that force themselves to eat meat from a young age."

 

[Secret world leader (shhh)]

Because eating animals "is immoral and unnatural." That's what the only vegan I've known says. Oh and "humans are actually herbivores that force themselves to eat meat from a young age."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure if we were herbivores, we'd be physically incapable of eating meat.

 

[Soviet Steve]

So....Watch your tone buddy

Why haven't you fools told me this sooner? I've been wasting my time eating what I wanted for over two decades now.

 

[Vivi22]

Why is veganism a thing?

I understand that there are moral and nutritional reasons behind vegetarianism, but veganism just seems...unnescary?

Honestly, it's only justifiable on moral grounds, but even then, those moral grounds aren't absolute and objective. I don't put much stock in the nutritional arguments because humans evolved to eat meat, we've spent much of our species history eating meat, and we're healthier on diets which include plenty of meat and avoid processed garbage, sugars and grains than we will ever be on a diet that completely excludes meat. In fact, given that vegan diets would appear to be less than ideal with regard to human nutrition, I'd say any moral arguments are questionable since they place the well being of animals above the health and well being of humans by default, but I digress a bit.

Honestly, what it comes down to is that some people can't handle the idea that life isn't all rose petals and rainbows and can't accept that to eat the diet we evolved to eat, some animals have to die. Now that is not to say that I agree with some of the atrocious factory farming practices that take place in various places but, barring those, I find it silly to complain because something had to die to feed my belly. That's the natural order of things, and no, the idea that we don't have to do it to survive doesn't fly with me because if we want to thrive, then yes, we have to eat meat. So until they've moved from growing it in labs to mass production, I'll continue to eat eat it.

(As an aside, the aforementioned current vegan friend was seriously overweight until recently. I'm still trying to work out what she was eating...)

My best guess off the cuff without knowing anything else would be that they were eating a lot of breads, grains, or other processed foods containing wheat. Have to get those calories somewhere when you aren't eating animal proteins and fats. Wheat just happens to be the worst possible thing health conscious people usually eat in large quantities because they don't realize it makes them fat and sick.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Animals like cows and chickens are force fed, forced to breed, and forced into confined spaces with one another. It's really not that hard to see why some people take passive action against that sort of thing and I personally respect them for it.

But then there are folks that like to protest and march and petition and all sorts of other shit, just because they think everyone should be doing things their way. Same as meat eaters think animals should be doing things our way really. Funny how that works.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Because eating animals "is immoral and unnatural." That's what the only vegan I've known says. Oh and "humans are actually herbivores that force themselves to eat meat from a young age."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure if we were herbivores, we'd be physically incapable of eating meat.

I know. As my bro/her boyfriend said "The fact that we have canines disproves that."

 

[AntiChrist]

I was a vegan for a short time a few years back, actually. The reason was clear: I had the hots for a girl who was a vegan herself.

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

"Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure if we were herbivores, we'd be physically incapable of eating meat.

I know. As my bro/her boyfriend said "The fact that we have canines disproves that."

On the other hand, our canines aren't as proportionally large as dedicated carnivores, we lack carnassial molars, we have a proportionally long gut and we can move our jaws from side to side, not just up and down.

But anyway, I find the "it's natural" argument to be a total non-starter regardless of which side you're on. Just because something is natural, that doesn't make it right. Nature isn't good, nature isn't bad, it lacks moral content. Nature is an impersonal interaction of physical forces, there's no right or wrong embedded in it.

I don't think it matters if we evolved to eat meat, I don't think it matters if we couldn't have got to where we are now without meat. If, for the sake of argument, it could be proved that it were morally wrong in every other respect, why continue to do it just because we always have? Is does not imply ought.

Unless that is, you believe in a benevolent designer God. But that's a whole different argument bubbling under there.

 

[shockywatt]

I have a funny story about vegans. My friend, his vegan girlfriend, and me went to a barbecue restaurant, my friend licking barbecue sauce off his fingers and she stood up and yelled "I cant take it any more I cant watch you lick the blood off your of fingers!" He looks at her and says "Its just barbecue sauce." So I think vegans are at least a little naive.

 

[razer17]

There is a reason our appendixes are useless these days. We are designed to eat meat, like many other animals. Maybe this is harsh, but I don't care that a pig was killed to make my bacon. Because humans are sentient, we shouldn't eat animals. Somehow it suddenly becomes evil when you know what you're doing. Animals live and they die. I think they should be treated well when they're alive, but apart from that, I don't care, till pigs evolve to the point where ask not to be killed.

Another thing is that. ironically, I bet loads of vegans use vitamin and Iron supplements. I bet those were tested on animals.

Thing is, a lot of vegans seem to place animals on a pedestal above human beings. To me, as soon as you claim an animals welfare is more important than a humans, you're wrong and your opinion is invalid to me. (I say a lot, but it might be very few, just that those few are the vocal majority)

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

I have a funny story about vegans. My friend, his vegan girlfriend, and me went to a barbecue restaurant, my friend licking barbecue sauce off his fingers and she stood up and yelled "I cant take it any more I cant watch you lick the blood off your of fingers!" He looks at her and says "Its just barbecue sauce." So I think vegans are at least a little naive.

I wouldn't necessarily ascribe that to veganism, I'd ascribe that to idiocy.

 

[Haagrum]

I've been vegetarian for 5 years. The basis of my decision was the economics of production, as well as the environmental effects of everyone eating as much meat as I used to (i.e. it's not sustainable over the long term). I'm also opposed to unnecessary cruelty to animals - read the first few chapters of "The Ethics of What We Eat" if you're interested in learning a bit more about industrial meat production. It's open to being changed if the evidence is there, and there's a few exceptions to my vegetarianism (e.g. if meat would otherwise definitely go to waste and it's still suitable for consumption, I'll eat it). I wouldn't go vegan, if only because I love cheese far too much to give it up (so I settle for being what Singer & Mason might call a "conscientious vegetarian"). I don't hold with the "it's wrong to kill" argument as a moral absolute, simply because it's a fact of nature that animals are killed for food by other animals.

Why would someone become a vegan? In many cases, personal moral or ethical values. If you're uncomfortable about animals suffering to produce food for you, then it's an easy logical step. We don't often think about where our food comes from. We're detached from it, largely because of how we live. Most people who love bacon would never have seen a pig being killed for it. In some cases, vegans are doing it because they can't reconcile the death of another creature capable of feeling pain (or the means of production, for that matter) with their desire for pleasurable consumption of that animal's flesh. There's the old saying about how people would cut back on meat consumption if they saw the production process. Indeed, the drop in meat sales in Australia for about 2 weeks after footage of animals being mistreated during live export processes is testament to that. Each to their own - but don't judge people for living their beliefs (on either side of the meat-eating fence).

I'm also aware that some people are vegan for legitimate health and medical reasons. For example, there's some evidence that a diet free (or almost entirely free) of saturated fats can help to limit the progression of multiple sclerosis. That pretty much means going vegan. Faced with a choice of no animal products or accelerated neural degeneration, I think it's a simple call. Aside from that, the "veganism = poor health" argument is bollocks. Yes, vegans need to be more careful about their consumption, but they're not doomed to poor health. Carl Lewis was vegan during his athletic career. Bryan Danielson is vegan. Weird Al Yankovic is vegan. I'm sure there are many others, and I can't be bothered researching names right now.

Finally... have you ever seen an overweight vegan? I certainly haven't, although I'm sure there'd be one or two exceptions to the rule.

It doesn't help that every single vegan I've ever met has been just so...

Condescendingly smug.

Kind of like Gypsies, I'm sure there are nice vegans. I just haven't met any yet

Funny how so many detractors of veganism are so... condescendingly vicious and defensive about their own choices. Likening all vegans to PETA activists is the same as likening all meat-eaters to cannibals or all Christians to the Westboro Baptist Church - inaccurate, insulting and ignorant.

I've copped plenty of flak for being vegetarian (always by non-vegetarians, and even including some former vegetarians), and I don't preach my beliefs at anyone. If we respected one another's choices while being open to other views on the ethics of consumption, none of this crap would matter to anyone except fringe extremists, ignorant sorts who don't like self-examination, or people who have simply never reconsidered their assumptions.

 

[OhSnap]

Oh god, not another thread like this...

Does it really matter? Does me or anyone else being a vegetarian/vegan affect you in any way? No. So you can f*** right off. I don't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me how to live mine. We good?


More on topic, why? Because I try to keep myself as healthy as possible after a friend of mine dropped dead at 20. If it can happen to someone I've known for nearly 11 years, it could happen to me. There's also the ethical thing, but as so many of you have pointed out, you don't accept that opinion as an actual reason.