Veganism...why?

[Soviet Steve]

So....Watch your tone buddy

Why haven't you fools told me this sooner? I've been wasting my time eating what I wanted for over two decades now.

 

[Vivi22]

Why is veganism a thing?

I understand that there are moral and nutritional reasons behind vegetarianism, but veganism just seems...unnescary?

Honestly, it's only justifiable on moral grounds, but even then, those moral grounds aren't absolute and objective. I don't put much stock in the nutritional arguments because humans evolved to eat meat, we've spent much of our species history eating meat, and we're healthier on diets which include plenty of meat and avoid processed garbage, sugars and grains than we will ever be on a diet that completely excludes meat. In fact, given that vegan diets would appear to be less than ideal with regard to human nutrition, I'd say any moral arguments are questionable since they place the well being of animals above the health and well being of humans by default, but I digress a bit.

Honestly, what it comes down to is that some people can't handle the idea that life isn't all rose petals and rainbows and can't accept that to eat the diet we evolved to eat, some animals have to die. Now that is not to say that I agree with some of the atrocious factory farming practices that take place in various places but, barring those, I find it silly to complain because something had to die to feed my belly. That's the natural order of things, and no, the idea that we don't have to do it to survive doesn't fly with me because if we want to thrive, then yes, we have to eat meat. So until they've moved from growing it in labs to mass production, I'll continue to eat eat it.

(As an aside, the aforementioned current vegan friend was seriously overweight until recently. I'm still trying to work out what she was eating...)

My best guess off the cuff without knowing anything else would be that they were eating a lot of breads, grains, or other processed foods containing wheat. Have to get those calories somewhere when you aren't eating animal proteins and fats. Wheat just happens to be the worst possible thing health conscious people usually eat in large quantities because they don't realize it makes them fat and sick.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Animals like cows and chickens are force fed, forced to breed, and forced into confined spaces with one another. It's really not that hard to see why some people take passive action against that sort of thing and I personally respect them for it.

But then there are folks that like to protest and march and petition and all sorts of other shit, just because they think everyone should be doing things their way. Same as meat eaters think animals should be doing things our way really. Funny how that works.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Because eating animals "is immoral and unnatural." That's what the only vegan I've known says. Oh and "humans are actually herbivores that force themselves to eat meat from a young age."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure if we were herbivores, we'd be physically incapable of eating meat.

I know. As my bro/her boyfriend said "The fact that we have canines disproves that."

 

[AntiChrist]

I was a vegan for a short time a few years back, actually. The reason was clear: I had the hots for a girl who was a vegan herself.

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

"Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure if we were herbivores, we'd be physically incapable of eating meat.

I know. As my bro/her boyfriend said "The fact that we have canines disproves that."

On the other hand, our canines aren't as proportionally large as dedicated carnivores, we lack carnassial molars, we have a proportionally long gut and we can move our jaws from side to side, not just up and down.

But anyway, I find the "it's natural" argument to be a total non-starter regardless of which side you're on. Just because something is natural, that doesn't make it right. Nature isn't good, nature isn't bad, it lacks moral content. Nature is an impersonal interaction of physical forces, there's no right or wrong embedded in it.

I don't think it matters if we evolved to eat meat, I don't think it matters if we couldn't have got to where we are now without meat. If, for the sake of argument, it could be proved that it were morally wrong in every other respect, why continue to do it just because we always have? Is does not imply ought.

Unless that is, you believe in a benevolent designer God. But that's a whole different argument bubbling under there.

 

[shockywatt]

I have a funny story about vegans. My friend, his vegan girlfriend, and me went to a barbecue restaurant, my friend licking barbecue sauce off his fingers and she stood up and yelled "I cant take it any more I cant watch you lick the blood off your of fingers!" He looks at her and says "Its just barbecue sauce." So I think vegans are at least a little naive.

 

[razer17]

There is a reason our appendixes are useless these days. We are designed to eat meat, like many other animals. Maybe this is harsh, but I don't care that a pig was killed to make my bacon. Because humans are sentient, we shouldn't eat animals. Somehow it suddenly becomes evil when you know what you're doing. Animals live and they die. I think they should be treated well when they're alive, but apart from that, I don't care, till pigs evolve to the point where ask not to be killed.

Another thing is that. ironically, I bet loads of vegans use vitamin and Iron supplements. I bet those were tested on animals.

Thing is, a lot of vegans seem to place animals on a pedestal above human beings. To me, as soon as you claim an animals welfare is more important than a humans, you're wrong and your opinion is invalid to me. (I say a lot, but it might be very few, just that those few are the vocal majority)

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

I have a funny story about vegans. My friend, his vegan girlfriend, and me went to a barbecue restaurant, my friend licking barbecue sauce off his fingers and she stood up and yelled "I cant take it any more I cant watch you lick the blood off your of fingers!" He looks at her and says "Its just barbecue sauce." So I think vegans are at least a little naive.

I wouldn't necessarily ascribe that to veganism, I'd ascribe that to idiocy.

 

[Haagrum]

I've been vegetarian for 5 years. The basis of my decision was the economics of production, as well as the environmental effects of everyone eating as much meat as I used to (i.e. it's not sustainable over the long term). I'm also opposed to unnecessary cruelty to animals - read the first few chapters of "The Ethics of What We Eat" if you're interested in learning a bit more about industrial meat production. It's open to being changed if the evidence is there, and there's a few exceptions to my vegetarianism (e.g. if meat would otherwise definitely go to waste and it's still suitable for consumption, I'll eat it). I wouldn't go vegan, if only because I love cheese far too much to give it up (so I settle for being what Singer & Mason might call a "conscientious vegetarian"). I don't hold with the "it's wrong to kill" argument as a moral absolute, simply because it's a fact of nature that animals are killed for food by other animals.

Why would someone become a vegan? In many cases, personal moral or ethical values. If you're uncomfortable about animals suffering to produce food for you, then it's an easy logical step. We don't often think about where our food comes from. We're detached from it, largely because of how we live. Most people who love bacon would never have seen a pig being killed for it. In some cases, vegans are doing it because they can't reconcile the death of another creature capable of feeling pain (or the means of production, for that matter) with their desire for pleasurable consumption of that animal's flesh. There's the old saying about how people would cut back on meat consumption if they saw the production process. Indeed, the drop in meat sales in Australia for about 2 weeks after footage of animals being mistreated during live export processes is testament to that. Each to their own - but don't judge people for living their beliefs (on either side of the meat-eating fence).

I'm also aware that some people are vegan for legitimate health and medical reasons. For example, there's some evidence that a diet free (or almost entirely free) of saturated fats can help to limit the progression of multiple sclerosis. That pretty much means going vegan. Faced with a choice of no animal products or accelerated neural degeneration, I think it's a simple call. Aside from that, the "veganism = poor health" argument is bollocks. Yes, vegans need to be more careful about their consumption, but they're not doomed to poor health. Carl Lewis was vegan during his athletic career. Bryan Danielson is vegan. Weird Al Yankovic is vegan. I'm sure there are many others, and I can't be bothered researching names right now.

Finally... have you ever seen an overweight vegan? I certainly haven't, although I'm sure there'd be one or two exceptions to the rule.

It doesn't help that every single vegan I've ever met has been just so...

Condescendingly smug.

Kind of like Gypsies, I'm sure there are nice vegans. I just haven't met any yet

Funny how so many detractors of veganism are so... condescendingly vicious and defensive about their own choices. Likening all vegans to PETA activists is the same as likening all meat-eaters to cannibals or all Christians to the Westboro Baptist Church - inaccurate, insulting and ignorant.

I've copped plenty of flak for being vegetarian (always by non-vegetarians, and even including some former vegetarians), and I don't preach my beliefs at anyone. If we respected one another's choices while being open to other views on the ethics of consumption, none of this crap would matter to anyone except fringe extremists, ignorant sorts who don't like self-examination, or people who have simply never reconsidered their assumptions.

 

[OhSnap]

Oh god, not another thread like this...

Does it really matter? Does me or anyone else being a vegetarian/vegan affect you in any way? No. So you can f*** right off. I don't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me how to live mine. We good?


More on topic, why? Because I try to keep myself as healthy as possible after a friend of mine dropped dead at 20. If it can happen to someone I've known for nearly 11 years, it could happen to me. There's also the ethical thing, but as so many of you have pointed out, you don't accept that opinion as an actual reason.

 

[Shockolate]

I think that sometimes there are medical reasons.

For example, I've heard that popular pro-wrestler and vegan Bryan Danielson (AKA Daniel Bryan) is vegan because of his poor immune system caused my several liver infections and that being vegan helps him.

I don't know any other details though.

 

[Eamar]

(As an aside, the aforementioned current vegan friend was seriously overweight until recently. I'm still trying to work out what she was eating...)

My best guess off the cuff without knowing anything else would be that they were eating a lot of breads, grains, or other processed foods containing wheat. Have to get those calories somewhere when you aren't eating animal proteins and fats. Wheat just happens to be the worst possible thing health conscious people usually eat in large quantities because they don't realize it makes them fat and sick.

Yeah, I guess that's probably it. Also, sugar is vegan and we all know how disastrous that is in terms of calories

Actually, now that you mention it I lost weight when I stopped being vegetarian. Even when I was actively trying to avoid over-reliance on pasta, bread etc and aiming for a balanced diet I fell short. I can only imagine the sheer amount of time and effort it must take a full-blown vegan to stay balanced :S

EDIT:

Finally... have you ever seen an overweight vegan? I certainly haven't, although I'm sure there'd be one or two exceptions to the rule.

See this conversation

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

(As an aside, the aforementioned current vegan friend was seriously overweight until recently. I'm still trying to work out what she was eating...)

My best guess off the cuff without knowing anything else would be that they were eating a lot of breads, grains, or other processed foods containing wheat. Have to get those calories somewhere when you aren't eating animal proteins and fats. Wheat just happens to be the worst possible thing health conscious people usually eat in large quantities because they don't realize it makes them fat and sick.

Yeah, I guess that's probably it. Also, sugar is vegan and we all know how disastrous that is in terms of calories

Actually, now that you mention it I lost weight when I stopped being vegetarian. Even when I was actively trying to avoid over-reliance on pasta, bread etc and aiming for a balanced diet I fell short. I can only imagine the sheer amount of time and effort it must take a full-blown vegan to stay balanced :S

Different metabolisms work in different ways, I'd guess. I'm a total sugar and carbs fiend but I lost loads of weight when I became vegan. I suspect the sudden lack of cheese had something to do with it.

 

[Eamar]

[
Different metabolisms work in different ways, I'd guess. I'm a total sugar and carbs fiend but I lost loads of weight when I became vegan. I suspect the sudden lack of cheese had something to do with it.

I'm not really sold on the metabolisms argument in all cases (seriously, this friend was BIG. No way you could blame it on metabolism, she was just plain eating too much, as she herself has admitted since losing the weight). I imagine it has more to do with activity levels and how much cheese you were eating

[small]Captcha: turkey sandwich. Well, I guess we know where captcha stands on this issue...[/small]

 

[Yopaz]

Ah, one of my favourite arguments. As far as I can interpret my friend's impossibly cheery explanation, it's something to do with exploiting animals being bad. That cow you mentioned? Pumped full of hormones to keep her body making milk and a lot more of said milk. Very naughty.

Do you think that is universal? Where I live it's illegal to use hormone treatment on animals. It is illegal to let your animals live in filth or discomfort. We have to provide mattresses for our cows so they don't hurt their hoofs by standing on a hard floor all the time. It's also mandatory to let our cows graze outside during summers. You are also ignoring the fact that we have this thing called organic farming where they use nothing artificial at all.

Then of course there's the question, do you think the cows would be better off if we let them go free?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Why?

Because people who like to feel morally superior to other people, statistically hailing from the socioeconomic middle-class or higher, get an ideology boner whenever they succeed in driving up the price of meat and dairy for those people who can least afford the price increases. Because students, unemployed, working families or even pensioners don't deserve access to an affordable natural human diet.

I've yet to meet a single Vegan in the flesh that wasn't ankle deep into animal rights.

 

[peruvianskys]

One: Disclaimer about animals. Tbh I don't give a fuck about chickens. Elephants? Different matter. For me it is a sense of self. Elephants have a concept of death, they should be protected. Apes have a sense of self, same applies. From what we can tell, Dolphins have both a sense of self and language, they should be protected.

See where I am going? I care about the welfare of animals that I currently think have got to the point where we should give a fuck about them.

So what criteria do you have for what animals deserve to be cared about and what animals don't?

Two: I mostly avoid animal products but, well, as the disclaimer said, I dont give a damn about a few animals. Things like chickens. Fish. Crabs. Do you care if someone swats a fly or stands on a cockroach?

I think it would probably be better not to, but I don't ascribe the same significance to it. But chickens and fish can feel pain as well.

Three: Now to an interesting point. I assume you avoid the majority of modern medicine. I assume you avoid using any haircare or skincare products. I assume your shoes are made of hemp, you own nothing made of wool or silk, hell, if all of the above aint true then you too are a hypocrite.

Everyone is a hypocrite. I care about the animals I think should be cared about. I dont give a damn about those that have no sense of self-awareness.

First off, self-awareness is a complex and messy concept. However, the majority of scientific evidence regarding the neurobiology of pigs, cows, chickens, etc. show that they have the same capacity for suffering as we do. That is what's important.

Secondly, it's not an all-or-nothing game here. You are probably unable to go the rest of your entire life without lying, but that doesn't mean you should just give up trying to be truthful. There are a million little ways to be more compassionate and constructive in our lives, and I'm simply saying that veganism is a really easy, incredibly positive change that someone can make. I don't wear leather or use soaps/medicines tested on animals, for the record, but it wouldn't matter either way. Any move towards respecting the rights of animals is a positive one.

So, lets get back to another interesting point, what is your view on animal testing?

Particularly testing carried out on rats, hamsters, mice and cats.

I have the exact same position; if I wouldn't do it to a retarded child, I wouldn't do it to an animal. The benefit would have to be incredibly great to justify it.

 

[LittleShe-Bear]

[
Different metabolisms work in different ways, I'd guess. I'm a total sugar and carbs fiend but I lost loads of weight when I became vegan. I suspect the sudden lack of cheese had something to do with it.

I'm not really sold on the metabolisms argument in all cases (seriously, this friend was BIG. No way you could blame it on metabolism, she was just plain eating too much, as she herself has admitted since losing the weight). I imagine it has more to do with activity levels and how much cheese you were eating

[small]Captcha: turkey sandwich. Well, I guess we know where captcha stands on this issue...[/small]

I did eat a lot of cheese, it's true. I'll happily admit cheese is amazing, it was a total ***** to give up.

[small] Seriously, captcha? Turkey? It's so dry, of all the meats you could have chosen...[/small]

 

[orangeban]

Not a vegan, or even a vegetarian, but I suspect that it's probably for the same reason that you wouldn't eat a human or suckle their milk without their consent.