Well, Daystar, as a vegetarian, I may be able to add at least some insight with my own personal views, which you didn't ask for and more than likely don't even want! (insert friendly but cagey grin here)Daystar Clarion said:Look, I understand the ideology surrounding it, and I have no problems with those who keep it to themselves, but the ideology is flawed.Rowan93 said:So, what, just because any way of producing food kills animals, it's hypocritical to try and kill less of them? And what about all of the people that can't afford to buy their own land and grow their own food? (which basically does mean all of the people)Daystar Clarion said:Unless vegans are growing their own food, on their own land, with no pesticides, they're hypocrites.
Countless animals are killed during the farming of grain and other plants.
As for why they do it.
No idea.
I understand vegetarianism to a degree, but not veganism.
I imagine everything that applies for vegetarianism applies more so for veganism. More efficient use of land, less animal suffering, etc.
'Oh, well, my diet kills less animals than yours.'
Okay, I'll accept that.
What about milk? Milk doesn't harm any animals, but they still refuse to drink it.
Just look at organisations like PETA.
They're hialriously hypocritcal, but I understand that they only represent a minority of vegans.
Animals can't suffer if they don't exist, so what the hell is "more suffering" supposed to mean?boyvirgo666 said:Not quite how it works. Veganism causes the exact same amount of animal suffering. in fact it would cause more since chickens, most breeds of turkeys and dairy cows would go extinct if we stopped keeping them around. Would also put Millions of people out of work.Rowan93 said:So, what, just because any way of producing food kills animals, it's hypocritical to try and kill less of them? And what about all of the people that can't afford to buy their own land and grow their own food? (which basically does mean all of the people)Daystar Clarion said:Unless vegans are growing their own food, on their own land, with no pesticides, they're hypocrites.
Countless animals are killed during the farming of grain and other plants.
As for why they do it.
No idea.
I understand vegetarianism to a degree, but not veganism.
I imagine everything that applies for vegetarianism applies more so for veganism. More efficient use of land, less animal suffering, etc.
"Kills less animals" can be extended to "causes less animal suffering". The killing itself doesn't cause much suffering (unless it's halal), and there are probably more problems with the animal's experiences elsewhere in its life of captivity.Daystar Clarion said:Look, I understand the ideology surrounding it, and I have no problems with those who keep it to themselves, but the ideology is flawed.Rowan93 said:So, what, just because any way of producing food kills animals, it's hypocritical to try and kill less of them? And what about all of the people that can't afford to buy their own land and grow their own food? (which basically does mean all of the people)Daystar Clarion said:Unless vegans are growing their own food, on their own land, with no pesticides, they're hypocrites.
Countless animals are killed during the farming of grain and other plants.
As for why they do it.
No idea.
I understand vegetarianism to a degree, but not veganism.
I imagine everything that applies for vegetarianism applies more so for veganism. More efficient use of land, less animal suffering, etc.
'Oh, well, my diet kills less animals than yours.'
Okay, I'll accept that.
What about milk? Milk doesn't harm any animals, but they still refuse to drink it.
Just look at organisations like PETA.
They're hialriously hypocritcal, but I understand that they only represent a minority of vegans.
Yeah, you got me there, in most cases we do take away the calf. Though that's more for practical purposes than anything else. The milk form a cow that recently gave birth is full of hormones and I think it might be higher in fat and a little thicker than the milk of other cows. The milk is either given to the calf or discarded.Odgical said:Dear sweet monkey lord you treat your cows like QUEENS! I'd have said kings but... y'know... anyway...
Right, yes, but I assume that the cows in question still have their calf yanked away so that it doesn't get the milk that the dirty humans want to drink. Also, the fact that humans want cows' milk has lead to breeding of the cows, the cows' existences and then indentured servitudes.
I do not think the cows would be better off if you let them free. I like milk, I like beef and I like to stare deep into a cow's eyes, stroke its head and whisper into its ear, "See you on Sunday". However, if fewer people drank milk then there'd be fewer cows so there'd be less 'suffering'.
FelixG said:Sir, you have convinced me!peruvianskys said:Animals clearly have desires. They clearly feel pain. I don't see any scientific reason why a human being with severe mental retardation should be considered any more important than a pig.
We SHOULD be serving up the mentally retarded for dinner! Just think of the world hunger problems we could solve!
Yes. If it didn't, you wouldn't be a vegetarian/vegan.OhSnap said:Does it really matter?
You're right...I CAN fuck right off! You're flawless debating skills have made me see the light!Does me or anyone else being a vegetarian/vegan affect you in any way? No. So you can f*** right off.
At no point did i tell you how to live your life. I merely expressed my opinion as it currently stands, if you see that as "telling you to live your life", you've got problems.I don't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me how to live mine.
Ok. See? Now you've answered my question and helped me understand the issue a bit better without exploding at me because i'm so obviously trying to establish a meat-eating regime where veganism is illegal. That wasn't so hard now, was it?More on topic, why? Because I try to keep myself as healthy as possible after a friend of mine dropped dead at 20. If it can happen to someone I've known for nearly 11 years, it could happen to me.
Secret world leader (shhh) said:This happens then... Double standard much?OhSnap said:At no point did i tell you how to live your life. I merely expressed my opinion as it currently stands, if you see that as "telling you to live your life", you've got problems.I don't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me how to live mine.
Kind of what I mean.Texas Joker 52 said:Well, Daystar, as a vegetarian, I may be able to add at least some insight with my own personal views, which you didn't ask for and more than likely don't even want! (insert friendly but cagey grin here)Daystar Clarion said:Look, I understand the ideology surrounding it, and I have no problems with those who keep it to themselves, but the ideology is flawed.Rowan93 said:So, what, just because any way of producing food kills animals, it's hypocritical to try and kill less of them? And what about all of the people that can't afford to buy their own land and grow their own food? (which basically does mean all of the people)Daystar Clarion said:Unless vegans are growing their own food, on their own land, with no pesticides, they're hypocrites.
Countless animals are killed during the farming of grain and other plants.
As for why they do it.
No idea.
I understand vegetarianism to a degree, but not veganism.
I imagine everything that applies for vegetarianism applies more so for veganism. More efficient use of land, less animal suffering, etc.
'Oh, well, my diet kills less animals than yours.'
Okay, I'll accept that.
What about milk? Milk doesn't harm any animals, but they still refuse to drink it.
Just look at organisations like PETA.
They're hialriously hypocritcal, but I understand that they only represent a minority of vegans.
Basically, for me, meat just doesn't sit well. Not sure why. Didn't like the taste or indigestion, so I stick to stuff that doesn't have meat. I'm not going to pretend that my diet kills less animals: Cows, chickens, pigs, etc., get killed every single day, and my eating french fries doesn't prevent the Big Macs. That sort of mindset is just stupid.
Besides, if you eat meat, good on ya! More for you. Its just not my thing. Like... Real Time Strategy games, or Dog Ownership. They may not be my thing, but I won't say they're bad at all, no sir!
Yes, and I get somewhat annoyed at moral high-ground arguements myself sometimes, because as long as you've looked at evidence and made an actual informed choice, then its unfair to be all superiour just because you came to a different conclusion.Daystar Clarion said:Kind of what I mean.
I just hate the 'moral high ground' argument, because whether you eat a burger or not, the animal that went into making it is still dead. You didn't save anything by being a vegan.
I'v got absolutely nothing against vegans or vegetarians, just so long as they don't act like they're a better human beings.