i asume you never saved for a year and a half so you could build a top end pc for games AND 3D design (oh btw i am studying games design and am going into 3D moddeling) and most of the people in my class have a computer at that price range a most hade to save long for it (not me i bought it at http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/) but others dont have that kind of cash on handOwyn_Merrilin said:
video game piracy: a question
- Thread starter twiceworn
- Start date
the clear issue here is that no one fully agrees on the whole piracy issue. some people are perfectly fine with it, some don't care, some are for or against it only in certain situations, and others are totally against it at all times. those who are for it are called thieves, liars or lazy when they make an attempt to rationalize it, and those against are called greedy, heartless, etc. there really is no right or wrong answer. it's all opinion. it's coke v pepsi, blue v red, ps3 v xbox, democrat v republican, and so on. whether or not it's a crime is not debatable, but whether or not it SHOULD be a crime is (or how severe a crime). we're never, EVER going to all agree on this subject
Well, there will be sales lost from people downloading the game instead of buying it. You cannot argue that every person that downloaded a game illegally would otherwise never have bought that game, and if you are in a place where you cannot afford a game or were not thinking of spending £60 on a game then you still add to the problem by supporting the pirates by visiting their sites and there is the aspect that spending the time playing a stolen game for free rather than doing something else which could help support other developers, or even retailers completely unrelated to videogames that you would have went to to occupy your time instead. (It's not as tangible a problem as the first because it relys on mights and maybes, but its still a valid observation.)Owyn_Merrilin said:
But when it comes down to the bottom line a single person pirating a single game will have a miniscule negative effect on the videogames industry. The problem comes when everyone sees themselves as that single person, and so everyone pirates the games saying "It's not like I'm making a difference"
And because there is no loss of a physical product to the developer it is easy to argue that they do not suffer from your illegal download. It just comes down to personal moral choice, which can be summed up in one question. Do you put your wants to play a game over the rights of the developers to get paid for their property, or not?
I can understand both answers to that question, and as it is a personal choice there is nothing you or I can really say to convince the other of the contary.
if you get somone to do somthing but dont pay him he gets nothing if somone makes somthing and you coppy it but others buy it he still get money and if you had no intention of paying for it he loses nothing so how is it bad??? that is the question i want answered so i can finaly shut pirates up once and for allGigaHz said:
So many rabbit holes, so much tail-chasing... and so little time.
Ultimately, this is a 'debate' along the lines of religion, OS, and politics. Feel free to express yourself, but understand that there is little chance that you are going to sway someone else's opinion, Don Quixote.
That said, I would like to point out a few things that you all should keep firmly in mind:
-developers do not make games to 'make people happy'. They're doing it because it's a creative impulse, and they are trying to make money off of that... as much as musicians create albums, or Hollywood creates movies. That we are entertained by the fruits of their labors is just a happy coincidence: they are still creating a product that they wish to monetize.
-If you hold the opinion that "piracy is okay if you weren't going to buy it anyway", you are rationalizing. Recreation itself is an investment of time, therefore, you are by simple definition disproving the "...weren't going to play it anyway."
-gifts are one thing--- somebody still paid for the game at one point. Piracy is a hearty "fuck you; I'm taking your Intellectual Property!" to the developers.
-Also, if you hold to the position that piracy is acceptable for any reason, you have completely forfeited the ability to complain if and when someone breaks into your car or your house and steals your CDs (or iPod), TV, stereo, etc. After all, they're just trying to get entertainment and/or happiness, and they wouldn't have bought that 32" LCD TV, would they?
The bottom line is that Piracy is theft. Period. End of Story. Rationalize all you want, but you are still breaking the law and taking something that you have no right to take.
Oh, and to end this on a humorous note, let's drop some PA on this thread:
Ultimately, this is a 'debate' along the lines of religion, OS, and politics. Feel free to express yourself, but understand that there is little chance that you are going to sway someone else's opinion, Don Quixote.
That said, I would like to point out a few things that you all should keep firmly in mind:
-developers do not make games to 'make people happy'. They're doing it because it's a creative impulse, and they are trying to make money off of that... as much as musicians create albums, or Hollywood creates movies. That we are entertained by the fruits of their labors is just a happy coincidence: they are still creating a product that they wish to monetize.
-If you hold the opinion that "piracy is okay if you weren't going to buy it anyway", you are rationalizing. Recreation itself is an investment of time, therefore, you are by simple definition disproving the "...weren't going to play it anyway."
-gifts are one thing--- somebody still paid for the game at one point. Piracy is a hearty "fuck you; I'm taking your Intellectual Property!" to the developers.
-Also, if you hold to the position that piracy is acceptable for any reason, you have completely forfeited the ability to complain if and when someone breaks into your car or your house and steals your CDs (or iPod), TV, stereo, etc. After all, they're just trying to get entertainment and/or happiness, and they wouldn't have bought that 32" LCD TV, would they?
The bottom line is that Piracy is theft. Period. End of Story. Rationalize all you want, but you are still breaking the law and taking something that you have no right to take.
Oh, and to end this on a humorous note, let's drop some PA on this thread:
Piracy is bad, m'kay?
ONLY if you already own the game (even if it's on a different system) are you allowed to obtain another copy through other means. No, screw the EULA, you already bought the product. Artificial restrictions should not apply. Especially if you can't physically obtain a product (ie Gameboy games on PC).
Though I still say the games industry in 2011 has lost more sales due to DRM than piracy. Seriously, I bought Total War: Empire, but due to an installation error the access code no longer works, even tied to my steam account. I have the disk sitting on my table- completely worthless now.
ONLY if you already own the game (even if it's on a different system) are you allowed to obtain another copy through other means. No, screw the EULA, you already bought the product. Artificial restrictions should not apply. Especially if you can't physically obtain a product (ie Gameboy games on PC).
Though I still say the games industry in 2011 has lost more sales due to DRM than piracy. Seriously, I bought Total War: Empire, but due to an installation error the access code no longer works, even tied to my steam account. I have the disk sitting on my table- completely worthless now.
ok as no one seems to have an answer i will expand my question with an example. you buy cod black ops for the pc coppy it off the disk and crack it so you dont need to have the disk in, so far so legal, now you dont need the disk though so you give it to a friend, for free, and HE DOES THE SAME THING YOU DID THEN PASSES IT ALONG,and it repeats through all his friends then their friens then class mates then as a birthday gift all the while keeping the patern now it is at lets say 1000 people, 1 PERSON PAYED 999 got it free and its legal HOW IS THAT BETTER THAT PIRACY?
The instant you pass that copy on to another party is where this slips into the "well obviously this changes things" trap. Up until that point nobody has obtained goods without payment.twiceworn said:
Now you might argue, what if you charged them for it? In which case it would be up to the original buyer to DELETE their game, or buy a new disk. Otherwise they would still be using something they have sold their 'rights' to, which is impossible legally.
*COUGH* note to Sony, claiming rights over something you sold all rights to DOES APPLY TO YOU. You do not have a say in what people do to the things you sold them, anymore than a car manufacturer can prevent people from putting stickers on their cars.
Sadly, people *suck* (to use MovieBobs phrasing) and probably wouldn't do that.
I'm not talking about specifics of a job or service, I'm making a comparison to one person doing a job verses hundreds.twiceworn said:
Yes, you could argue that they get paid anyway but what if what they are paid is not enough to cover the budget of the game? Not every game is a commercial success after all. People may lose their jobs or get their salaries cut, or in extreme situations, companies shut down. Obviously, this doesn't always happen but every sale adds up.
Take a look at the music industry. There are hard statistics that downloading music has affected music sales to an extreme degree. While there are a good amount of people supporting the artist through paid digital downloads and CD sales, it doesn't compare to the revenue generated through music sales 5-10 years ago. After all, why pay for a song or album if you can hop on Youtube and get it for free?
And that ultimately is the problem. Piracy is an option for many because it is very accessible. They don't see a problem with it because free stuff is all over the internet. So the mentality is "One free copy isn't going to make a difference". The question is, how many people have this mentality?
Well then it's quite obvious pirates are not part of the intended audience. If they were, prices would be adjusted accordingly.smearyllama said:
If that person robbed the grocery store because they did not have the money to buy food then yes, they should get special privileges. Then again, pirating a game is not the same as stealing bread. A more accurate portrayal would be buying bread, making thousands of copies of that bread then distributing them using something akin to the internet except in real life.Landshark1 said:
So I suppose not donating is the same as robbing CF sufferers of their life? Either way, there are a lot of reasons why people pirate. You can't pass judgement unto others until you've heard their side of the story.Landshark1 said:
if you buy i game you are alowed to make one coppy for personal non commercial use on your computer then if you give the disk away which is still legal you are still in the clear it would be no diffrent if you bought the game then put it online for others to download but its illegal to do so wtf basicly, wizards first rule people are dumb i guessZombieGenesis said:
i agree its a group problem my question was to the morality of one situation (if no one loses anthing is it wrong? and if so why?GigaHz said:
but i think you hit the nail on the head: Piracy is an option for many because it is very accessible. They don't see a problem with it because free stuff is all over the internet. So the mentality is "One free copy isn't going to make a difference". The question is, how many people have this mentality?
ONE SNOWFLAKE IS HARMLESS MILLIONS CAN KILL YOU
thank you sir you have the answer
Some people seem to have misunderstood how piracy works....
Let's take candy as an example:
One dude buys a lot of candy.
He eats some and then decides to make the exact same candy and proceeds to give it to friends and people everywhere for free...
Sure it hurts the industry, in the way that people might go to him instead, but no one has stolen anything!
I repeat ANYTHING!
The Pirate(the on that uploads it) buys the game so that he can share it.
The downloaders gladly take him up on his offering deal, NO ONE HAS STOLEN ANYTHING.
To steal something you have to take something from someone without paying...
If someone buys something, replicates it, and then gives the replica to you, you haven't stolen anything, even if he isn't allowed to share it by law...
The wrong thing in piracy is the sharing, the downloaders isn't at fault, the uploader is; cause he shared something, he wasn't allowed to.
Get your facts right people!
Let's take candy as an example:
One dude buys a lot of candy.
He eats some and then decides to make the exact same candy and proceeds to give it to friends and people everywhere for free...
Sure it hurts the industry, in the way that people might go to him instead, but no one has stolen anything!
I repeat ANYTHING!
The Pirate(the on that uploads it) buys the game so that he can share it.
The downloaders gladly take him up on his offering deal, NO ONE HAS STOLEN ANYTHING.
To steal something you have to take something from someone without paying...
If someone buys something, replicates it, and then gives the replica to you, you haven't stolen anything, even if he isn't allowed to share it by law...
The wrong thing in piracy is the sharing, the downloaders isn't at fault, the uploader is; cause he shared something, he wasn't allowed to.
Get your facts right people!
what if you just dont think its amoral to steal from the rich (or in a way, to steal in general)
possession is just an illusion and the rich are still rich
its one thing to take bread from the mouths of the poor
its not the same thing to take it from the breadstore
and its really not the same thing to steal it from the megabread superfactory
we steal the water from the river (and eachother), land and food from the animals (and eachother), and oil from the ground (and eachother)
what the hell is the difference
every breath we take could have been someone elses
if you really dont want to take anything from anyone/anything then youd have to stop living
and all of the different life forms that the matter/energy in your body becomes would just continue living the same self-serving way anyway
well work out some temporary systems, but theyll always fall apart
i do believe in trying to be a good person, i just think you can be a good person who steals certain things
possession is just an illusion and the rich are still rich
its one thing to take bread from the mouths of the poor
its not the same thing to take it from the breadstore
and its really not the same thing to steal it from the megabread superfactory
we steal the water from the river (and eachother), land and food from the animals (and eachother), and oil from the ground (and eachother)
what the hell is the difference
every breath we take could have been someone elses
if you really dont want to take anything from anyone/anything then youd have to stop living
and all of the different life forms that the matter/energy in your body becomes would just continue living the same self-serving way anyway
well work out some temporary systems, but theyll always fall apart
i do believe in trying to be a good person, i just think you can be a good person who steals certain things
Piracy is theft. It is stealing Intellectual Property, copyright infringement.
Let's compare pirating a game to stealing a book, the price difference; production methods and outlets notwithstanding. Either way, if you steal one of these items it's illegal. Here's where most people lose the comparison: you steal a copy of Duma Key and the outlet is out of a physical item, you pirate Deus Ex Human Revolution and no-one loses a physical item, only software.
There is no way to justify taking and using that which others must purchase to use. If you can't afford to buy a game then you are not entitled to it. You won't be any worse off for not having it, it's a luxury and not a necessity. Entertainment of any kind is not a necessity. A man can survive with food, water, warmth and shelter. It might not be an ideal survival but it's survival nonetheless. You can very easily survive without entertainment.
If you had no intention of purchasing the game in the first place, then you too good sir are still in the wrong. I have no intention of purchasing a new shirt, but I'm sure as hell not going to steal one. Yes, I'd be depriving someone else of a shirt, but in pirating a game am I not depriving a shop owner of a potential sale and their right to profit from their sale?
Oh, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway right? As far as I'm concerned this is just a sugar coated way of saying: "I never intended to pay for a product I may or may not have wanted". Even if it's a case where someone truly didn't want the game in the first place, why pirate it? Just because the option is there and you wouldn't have bought it anyway doesn't make it justified. It's basically a lack of motivation without the presence of opportunity; as soon as the opportunity arises so does the motivation. That nullifies that argument entirely.
Also think about it like this for a second: There are gamers who buy these games, whether at full retail price or second hand. Either way they have purchased the right to use that little piece of Intellectual Property. These are the people who contribute, not only to the videogames industry, but to the economy. People who pirate games are essentially bottom feeding off the industry.
I can sympathise with people who pirate because they're poor and can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads; but I don't endorse what they do. Having no willpower is not a justification to steal the right to a luxury. However anyone else who pirates, simply because they don't want to pay or 'didn't plan to buy the game anyway' are plain wrong.
Pirating software which was intended to be purchased is theft. It's that simple. Thousands of others can and will buy their videogames from a shop or online, what gives anyone the right to do any different? It's not just a crime against shop owners and the videogame industry in general, it's a dishonour to the people who purchased their items. It's devaluing the very thing they forked over their money for.
Let's compare pirating a game to stealing a book, the price difference; production methods and outlets notwithstanding. Either way, if you steal one of these items it's illegal. Here's where most people lose the comparison: you steal a copy of Duma Key and the outlet is out of a physical item, you pirate Deus Ex Human Revolution and no-one loses a physical item, only software.
So by definition, video games go under Copyright. So when you download Deus Ex Human Revolution you might not be depriving anyone of a physical item, but you're using software which you have no right to use. You're taking something you have no right to take, something which was intended to be sold and not given.
There is no way to justify taking and using that which others must purchase to use. If you can't afford to buy a game then you are not entitled to it. You won't be any worse off for not having it, it's a luxury and not a necessity. Entertainment of any kind is not a necessity. A man can survive with food, water, warmth and shelter. It might not be an ideal survival but it's survival nonetheless. You can very easily survive without entertainment.
If you had no intention of purchasing the game in the first place, then you too good sir are still in the wrong. I have no intention of purchasing a new shirt, but I'm sure as hell not going to steal one. Yes, I'd be depriving someone else of a shirt, but in pirating a game am I not depriving a shop owner of a potential sale and their right to profit from their sale?
Oh, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway right? As far as I'm concerned this is just a sugar coated way of saying: "I never intended to pay for a product I may or may not have wanted". Even if it's a case where someone truly didn't want the game in the first place, why pirate it? Just because the option is there and you wouldn't have bought it anyway doesn't make it justified. It's basically a lack of motivation without the presence of opportunity; as soon as the opportunity arises so does the motivation. That nullifies that argument entirely.
Also think about it like this for a second: There are gamers who buy these games, whether at full retail price or second hand. Either way they have purchased the right to use that little piece of Intellectual Property. These are the people who contribute, not only to the videogames industry, but to the economy. People who pirate games are essentially bottom feeding off the industry.
I can sympathise with people who pirate because they're poor and can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads; but I don't endorse what they do. Having no willpower is not a justification to steal the right to a luxury. However anyone else who pirates, simply because they don't want to pay or 'didn't plan to buy the game anyway' are plain wrong.
Pirating software which was intended to be purchased is theft. It's that simple. Thousands of others can and will buy their videogames from a shop or online, what gives anyone the right to do any different? It's not just a crime against shop owners and the videogame industry in general, it's a dishonour to the people who purchased their items. It's devaluing the very thing they forked over their money for.
simply put, the world doesn't work that way.
Let me show you a penny arcade comic that has something to do with it
Now, ignoring the fact that the landlord in this image is kinda a douche, he has a point, the home was rented, but the rent wasn't paid, now, games, just like apartments, cost money to make, and just like apartments, are made to be sold.
Now, would the landlord rather have the tenant who doesn't pay, or the tenant who does, the building has the same amount of apartments either way, but they're completely worthless to the landlord if nobody pays for them, and this is bad, because like games, apartments are really damn expensive to make.
Let me show you a penny arcade comic that has something to do with it
Now, ignoring the fact that the landlord in this image is kinda a douche, he has a point, the home was rented, but the rent wasn't paid, now, games, just like apartments, cost money to make, and just like apartments, are made to be sold.
Now, would the landlord rather have the tenant who doesn't pay, or the tenant who does, the building has the same amount of apartments either way, but they're completely worthless to the landlord if nobody pays for them, and this is bad, because like games, apartments are really damn expensive to make.
I don't pirate solely because I recognize the fact that developers have the right to compensation for their work being used.
sure this is what happens when the man tries to get out of paying the rent by talking about his ideas to his landlordtheheroofaction said:simply put, the world doesn't work that way.
Let me show you a penny arcade comic that has something to do with it
Now, ignoring the fact that the landlord in this image is kinda a douche, he has a point, the home was rented, but the rent wasn't paid, now, games, just like apartments, cost money to make, and just like apartments, are made to be sold.
Now, would the landlord rather have the tenant who doesn't pay, or the tenant who does, the building has the same amount of apartments either way, but they're completely worthless to the landlord if nobody pays for them, and this is bad, because like games, apartments are really damn expensive to make.
that just means he failed at the stealing part
the world does work that way, but only the strong succeed
the landlord is not superior because he is part of a better system
he simply wins at surviving
whatever works
everything is free, but only once you obtain it without paying
Except that when the pirate purchased that game he purchased the right to play it for himself. If he then sells that game on or trades it in, he no longer has that game or the right to play it. However if he releases said game as a torrent then he is distributing the right for people to play that game, something he is legally not allowed to do as only the owners of the IP can provide that right.Magefeanor said:
We understand how piracy works, but you don't understand how Intellectual Property works. See, because videogames are capable of being infinitely produced by the IP owner there has to be a method of policing it like we do physical items. This is where licences come in. When you buy a game you are buying a licence to use that particular copy of the software. What you aren't doing is buying the right to copy and distribute that software.