Virtual Hotties

[Gorrath]

As somebody who visits anime websites quite a bit, I sometimes ALMOST feel alienated with all the Free! posts that I see. Even /a/, 4chan's bastion of male-dominated anime arguments, has an active Free! post at almost all times.

Honestly I think it's refreshing to see different types of male character designs. Really I'm just using Free as an example because it's basically the opposite of the usual male power fantasy thing. Most male characters are designed to make guys want to be them, not to be attractive. Characters in Free and stuff are designed to just straight up be attractive (usually towards women). Games could do with a bit of that diversity!

(and I'm not just saying that so there are more hot guys to ogle in games....)

Find me a guy who doesn't want to look like the guys in Free! (not literally of course - they are anime characters after all) and I'll show you a liar.

Think I might be a liar then. I guess you might say that I wouldn't terribly mind looking like the guys from Free!, but in all honesty I'd rather look like an MMA fighter. Cut and fit, not too skinny and not looking like a body builder.

 

[Grimh]

Pfft, the only reason I wouldn't want a Larry A.I. is the whole overly bulky Fabio thing he's got going on, give me a Chris Pratt or Robert Downey Jr. nude lookalike or somethiiiuuueehh I mean what?

Man Cortana sure did uh... change, over the years.

I like to think MC's mind influenced her looks while she was in there.
His dirty, dirty mind.

 

[Shanahanapp]

One of the issues I've always had with the argument that male characters aren't designed for females to be attracted to, but for males as a power fantasy, is that it presumes to know what females find attractive about males. Some females find guys like Kratos attractive, some find slime anime style guys like in Free! to be attractive. The idea that male power fantasy guys are somehow explicitly not attractive to females presumes too much. (Not that you seem to be arguing that exactly, but I've seen that argued before.)

My wife is even into the slimmer guys with long hair and big eyes and finds the dudes from Free! to be boring as hell from a visual standpoint. That mixed with how many romance novel covers share extraordinarily similar characteristics to "male power fantasy" shots from games makes me think that the divide is not so great as some claim.

I get that some women are attracted to that type of design but I'd still say the characters aren't being specifically designed to appeal to women like that. I think it's mainly down to the demographic, males being thought of as the "main demographic" of course (which is another issue). The characters in Free were specifically designed to be attractive to mainly females. That doesn't mean all females find them attractive. By the same token I think most generic male characters aren't designed to be attractive to females, they're designed for the whole power fantasy thing, but that doesn't mean that no females find them attractive.

 

[Gorrath]

One of the issues I've always had with the argument that male characters aren't designed for females to be attracted to, but for males as a power fantasy, is that it presumes to know what females find attractive about males. Some females find guys like Kratos attractive, some find slime anime style guys like in Free! to be attractive. The idea that male power fantasy guys are somehow explicitly not attractive to females presumes too much. (Not that you seem to be arguing that exactly, but I've seen that argued before.)

My wife is even into the slimmer guys with long hair and big eyes and finds the dudes from Free! to be boring as hell from a visual standpoint. That mixed with how many romance novel covers share extraordinarily similar characteristics to "male power fantasy" shots from games makes me think that the divide is not so great as some claim.

I get that some women are attracted to that type of design but I'd still say the characters aren't being specifically designed to appeal to women like that. I think it's mainly down to the demographic, males being thought of as the "main demographic" of course (which is another issue). The characters in Free were specifically designed to be attractive to mainly females. That doesn't mean all females find them attractive. By the same token I think most generic male characters aren't designed to be attractive to females, they're designed for the whole power fantasy thing, but that doesn't mean that no females find them attractive.

That's what I have a hard time with though. "Most generic male characters" are designed to fit whatever tropes a piece relies on. I think it may be fair to say, "The designers picked this character design because it plays to demographic X." I think it is unfair to say, "This character is made to appeal to male power fantasies and NOT female sexual fantasies." There is overlap between "male power fantasy" and "female sexual fantasy," and that overlap isn't trivial if romance novel covers are primarily intended to sell romance novels to women.

I would say, "The characters in Free! are specifically designed to be attractive to people who find that style attractive." That would include women, gay and bi men and even straight guys who like looking at skinny anime dudes. There is a huge demand for that style of male character design among the female audience, but I would never say that the designs were chosen to appeal to women at the exclusion of men.

I am picking on the semantics here because one set of language seems to imply intentional or tangential exclusion. The other set of language admits a bias toward a primary demographic, but does not claim intentional or tangential exclusion on the part of the designers. I don't think calling out the designs as being exclusionary is warranted based on the designs alone. Not sure if I'm communicating what I am thinking effectively though. I may also just be pedantic here, not sure.

 

[An Ceannaire]

I like to think MC's mind influenced her looks while she was in there.
His dirty, dirty mind.

I know you're joking, but time for a Halo lore interjection!

Part of the Spartan II augmentation process during puberty involved the suppression of certain normal pubescent developments. Among other things, this resulted in a very low sex drive and an inability to have children (in the case of the female spartans at least. I'm not sure if the male spartans were sterile or not). Also, smart AI can't change their appearance. They choose their physical form during their creation/manifestation and can't change it during their 7 year lifespan.

 

[CaitSeith]

Interchange the models, and you have the way of thinking of the AAA game industry for choosing the main character (except Tomb Raider).

 

[Shanahanapp]

snip

*edit whoops.

I think I get what you're saying. I'm not really saying I think the designers were being specifically exclusive. I just think it's more likely they'd design to what appeals to guys mostly due to that being the demographic and then whatever crossover that has into appealing to other demographics is likely not what they were focusing on. I think most male character designs don't try to NOT appeal to females I just think it's likely that the designers put less thought into that aspect of the design.

 

[Hdawger]

Guys, according to his Twitter, Grey isn't doing a comic on the ZQ conspiracy because he believes it's more important to focus on the events in Ferguson right now *Cough Gaza Defense Cough*.

 

[An Ceannaire]

One of the issues I've always had with the argument that male characters aren't designed for females to be attracted to, but for males as a power fantasy, is that it presumes to know what females find attractive about males. Some females find guys like Kratos attractive, some find slime anime style guys like in Free! to be attractive. The idea that male power fantasy guys are somehow explicitly not attractive to females presumes too much. (Not that you seem to be arguing that exactly, but I've seen that argued before.)

My wife is even into the slimmer guys with long hair and big eyes and finds the dudes from Free! to be boring as hell from a visual standpoint. That mixed with how many romance novel covers share extraordinarily similar characteristics to "male power fantasy" shots from games makes me think that the divide is not so great as some claim.

I get that some women are attracted to that type of design but I'd still say the characters aren't being specifically designed to appeal to women like that. I think it's mainly down to the demographic, males being thought of as the "main demographic" of course (which is another issue). The characters in Free were specifically designed to be attractive to mainly females. That doesn't mean all females find them attractive. By the same token I think most generic male characters aren't designed to be attractive to females, they're designed for the whole power fantasy thing, but that doesn't mean that no females find them attractive.

Two things:

Why do we have to design characters that visually appeal to a specific gender anyway? Plenty of popular gaming characters were not designed in this way. Movies are best when they don't pander - the same can (usually) be said of games.

Also, the male demographic is the "main demographic" for AAA titles - if we're talking purely in terms of numbers. There's no disputing that.

 

[An Ceannaire]

Interchange the models, and you have the way of thinking of the AAA game industry for choosing the main character (except Tomb Raider).

Unless it's a Japanese game (see Final Fantasy).

At least they're willing to put women/girls as the protagonist in Japan without pandering too much to either gender. Now, if they could only find a way to give them a bit of personality (I'm looking at you, Lightning!)

 

[wAriot]

Good God, not this again.
Well, first of all I have to say what I've said in other occasions: the male equivalent of the female chest (in the matter of "sexual attraction") is not the penis. It's... the chest. Or more like the musculature in general. A well-toned body (not something too overkill, like say, Kratos, or Marcus Fenix)(also, ass-cheeks are included here too) is as attractive to women (or at the very least gay men) as a decent pair of tits is to men.

Secondly, unless you are a fetishist, an oversized penis is not attractive. Period. And even then, I'm sure outside of porn everyone would find it pretty disgusting. Just think about this: would you find mons the size of steaks attractive?

 

[boag]

Yes, there is certainly nothing else going on in the video game industry this week.

*shuts eyes and ears*

lalalalalalalalalalalalala

 

[Shanahanapp]

Two things:

Why do we have to design characters that visually appeal to a specific gender anyway? Plenty of popular gaming characters were not designed in this way. Movies are best when they don't pander - the same can (usually) be said of games.

That's true but this did start as a discussion on the need for more male eye-candy, so we (or I at least) are mainly referring to characters designed to be attractive to some demographic. I don't mind pandering too much, I just think that there should be pandering for more than one or two demographics.

 

[Gorrath]

snip

*edit whoops.

I think I get what you're saying. I'm not really saying I think the designers were being specifically exclusive. I just think it's more likely they'd design to what appeals to guys mostly due to that being the demographic and then whatever crossover that has into appealing to other demographics is likely not what they were focusing on. I think most male character designs don't try to NOT appeal to females I just think it's likely that the designers put less thought into that aspect of the design.

That's pretty much exactly what I mean. When people say "This character is designed to appeal to men, NOT women," it implies an exclusionary stance by the designer and also purports to know what females like and don't like. That's why I don't like it when people use that verbiage, the implications of that phrasing are problematic. There's a huge difference between, "This game is meant to appeal to this demographic" and "This game is meant to exclude that demographic." Not that a game couldn't be both, but the second is an accusation that needs more evidence than someone looking at Kratos and going, "Nope, not for women."

In short, I think you and I are in agreement.

 

[Gorrath]

Two things:

Why do we have to design characters that visually appeal to a specific gender anyway? Plenty of popular gaming characters were not designed in this way. Movies are best when they don't pander - the same can (usually) be said of games.

That's true but this did start as a discussion on the need for more male eye-candy, so we (or I at least) are mainly referring to characters designed to be attractive to some demographic. I don't mind pandering too much, I just think that there should be pandering for more than one or two demographics.

I agree with this too. No reason everyone can't be pandered to, so long as the companies can make money from it or someone just wants to crank it out for free in their spare time.

 

[CaitSeith]

Interchange the models, and you have the way of thinking of the AAA game industry for choosing the main character (except Tomb Raider).

Unless it's a Japanese game (see Final Fantasy).

At least they're willing to put women/girls as the protagonist in Japan without pandering too much to either gender. Now, if they could only find a way to give them a bit of personality (I'm looking at you, Lightning!)

Oh, yeah. I forgot about them. It's just that the Northamerican AAA game market seems so dominated by western AAA studios that it's easy to lose track of the others.

 

[An Ceannaire]

Two things:

Why do we have to design characters that visually appeal to a specific gender anyway? Plenty of popular gaming characters were not designed in this way. Movies are best when they don't pander - the same can (usually) be said of games.

That's true but this did start as a discussion on the need for more male eye-candy, so we (or I at least) are mainly referring to characters designed to be attractive to some demographic. I don't mind pandering too much, I just think that there should be pandering for more than one or two demographics.

With the retarded way the AAA industry is structured, many developers can only "afford" to pander to one demographic. And logic would dictate that they pander to the most lucrative one.

However, I even think that the way they pander to males is all wrong. Some developers seem to have lost sight of what the male demographic actually wants (although to be fair, the young male gamers are not renowned for knowing what they want - and I say that as one myself), especially when it comes to the subject of eye candy. Sure, big breasts alone will net you some sales from the more sexually deprived of the demographic, but that hook alone isn't enough. Now, combine a sexy body with an interesting character, and then you'll have the attention of a large percentage of Male gamers. The best example I've come across of this is Mass Effect. Which female character is often cited by Mass Effect fans as their favourite? Exotic and intelligent Liara has her legions of fans, as does the genetically perfect and caustic Miranda. But it's Tali who commands an unusual amount of adoration - despite the fact that you can see more skin on a woman in the most strict of Arab countries. Sure, her outfit is tight in all the right places, but she has a fairly average body-type. Tali has won most her fans due to her personality.

 

[CaitSeith]

Guys, according to his Twitter, Grey isn't doing a comic on the ZQ conspiracy because he believes it's more important to focus on the events in Ferguson right now *Cough Gaza Defense Cough*.

It's very egocentric of you to complain about Grey's focus; while the PSN was under hacker's attack, blocking access to tens of thousands of gamers. *sarcasm alert*

 

[raankh]

Two things:

Why do we have to design characters that visually appeal to a specific gender anyway? Plenty of popular gaming characters were not designed in this way. Movies are best when they don't pander - the same can (usually) be said of games.

That's true but this did start as a discussion on the need for more male eye-candy, so we (or I at least) are mainly referring to characters designed to be attractive to some demographic. I don't mind pandering too much, I just think that there should be pandering for more than one or two demographics.

With the retarded way the AAA industry is structured, many developers can only "afford" to pander to one demographic. And logic would dictate that they pander to the most lucrative one.

However, I even think that the way they pander to males is all wrong. Some developers seem to have lost sight of what the male demographic actually wants (although to be fair, the young male gamers are not renowned for knowing what they want - and I say that as one myself), especially when it comes to the subject of eye candy. Sure, big breasts alone will net you some sales from the more sexually deprived of the demographic, but that hook alone isn't enough. Now, combine a sexy body with an interesting character, and then you'll have the attention of a large percentage of Male gamers. The best example I've come across of this is Mass Effect. Which female character is often cited by Mass Effect fans as their favourite? Exotic and intelligent Liara has her legions of fans, as does the genetically perfect and caustic Miranda. But it's Tali who commands an unusual amount of adoration - despite the fact that you can see more skin on a woman in the most strict of Arab countries. Sure, her outfit is tight in all the right places, but she has a fairly average body-type. Tali has won most her fans due to her personality.

Also, her LEGS BEND THE WRONG WAY!!!

Sorry, had to get that out there. Still my favourite ME character, although I'd prefer her a bit more Huckleberry Finn boyish and "aw, shucks" from a character perspective.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I feel like the industry needs more Larry's. I think there's a place for both Cortana's and Larry's.

I don't think most people would have enough space for Larry. D:

First off, Larry is to blue-collar to appeal to the warrior-woman-on-the-go who could use something to class up the kinds of situations she usually winds up in. Something like Gerald.
Secondly, do you mean space in their hard drive? Because that male hologram is packing a bazooka down there! I can't calculate how much memory space it takes to render THAT!