Visual Novels; their place in the gaming world?

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GabeZhul

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For the question whether VNs are a medium of their own or a genre of games, I have to say: both. It's all terminology.
To examine how that works, let's look at another thing that can be both a medium and a genre: RPGs.

An pure RPG has a number of very specific trappings.
-Focuses on a character/set of characters and their acts and deeds
-Character advancement (levels, ability points, skill training, etc.)
-Provides a narrative, with goals and rewards (quests)
-Gives the audience agency when forming the narrative (choices)
-Loot and other rewards

The thing that established all these attributes and thus can be viewed as the "pure RPG" would be the tabletop RPG and they are usually treated as their own medium (though some would argue they belong under the umbrella of "tabletop gaming", but that is pretty nebulous.)

However, you can take some of these elements out of the context of a pure RPG and you can put them into other interactive media (read: vidya games). The two aspects most often taken out are the advancement systems ("RPG elements") and the player agency (cue "Your choices shape the story and the game-world!" PR babble). Just because these elements can give any other game the trappings of RPGs doesn't make pure tabletop RPGs any less valid as their own medium.

In contrast, a pure Visual Novel has a number of very specific trappings.
-Has an audiovisual aspect (in contrast to books or pure text-based adventure games)
-Has no traditional gameplay elements
-Tells a story using the ADV (text-box at the bottom, 2D full-body sprites (tachies) at the front) or NVL (the transparent text-box covers the entire screen, the graphics are behind it) format
-Uses text exclusively to tell its story (the graphics and BGM are only there for illustration and setting the mood)
-Uses consistent narration

Thus a pure Visual Novel would be something like Fate/Stay Night, a title with audiovisuals, no gameplay, NVL presentation, text based storytelling and consistent narration.

However, you can take some of these element out of the context of a pure VN and you can put them into different interactive media. The one that is the most common is the ADV presentation, which is a very straightforward and cost-effective format when it comes to display dialog, and thus a lot of JRPGs use it (eg: the Persona series).
However, most of the time these are only considered VN elements of convenience, and it is much more common for things to go the other way when gameplay elements from video games get injected into VNs (usually JRPG battles and leveling and turn based combat/strategy). However, the final deciding factors that decides whether it's a game with VN trappings or a VN with gameplay elements is always the presence of consistent narration and the VN/gameplay ratio.

In the end though, just because there are hybrid games with VN elements in them doesn't mean that the pure VNs are any less valid as their own medium.

And with that I rest my case for why VNs can be considered both a separate medium and a video game genere depending on the "purity" of the defining elements present.
 

FC Groningen

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As a guy that prefers games to have a strong story line, I played a few and there were only a few I liked. I tried Clannad too, but couldn't get into it for several reasons. Mostly because I consider most characters in Visual Novels to be (stereo)typical Japanese characters or just "Japanese". Most protagonists either start off as weak inept mamma boys or "bad boys that are too cool to care" and then continue the usual route in which you always end up with either 1 of the available "x" girls that are all into for some reason. In fact, I've completely had it with the 2 dimensional characters in either Anime or Western games.

The idea of visual novels appeals to me, but I'm still waiting for (more) decent story driven games from Western developers.
 

Maximum Bert

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ninja666 said:
She could be a horse, or a tree for all I care. My point isn't her being a little girl, it's that the sex scenes feel so forced, they could as well not be in there at all. If they had a genuinely good reason and buildup for it other than "it's a 18+ game so it has to have sex in it hurr durr" I'd be more than fine with that.
Are you on about the sex scenes? or the pictures? cos the scenes definitely have a purpose because...

ninja666 said:
Scars Unseen said:
The sex scenes... are a problem, I admit. It's not that they are there. I read erotic fiction from time to time, so there's no problem with that. It's that they are usually horribly written, even when the rest of the VN is amazing. Well that, and that in many VNs, the sex scenes are just a remnant from the format's roots in Japanese dating sims: they are just there as a "reward" for the player. Incidentally, Saya no Uta isn't one of those. However much one may or not like them, the sex in that VN definitely has narrative importance.
It's not surprising, considering Saya no Uta's plot revolves almost exclusively around sex. Still, those scenes could've been written much more convincingly.
Yeah you pointed it out yourself sex is a key component of the plot along with mental perception. You dont have to like the VN (refuse to call it a game) but it definitely does not just toss sex scenes in for the hell of it I suppose some people found it erotic (some people are messed up) but really its mostly disturbing just like the entire book. I personally loved it, I like a lot of Lovecrafts work and that reminded me of it but it definitely had its own spin on it. I suppose they could have been written better considering perfection should be strived for but I personally thought they were very well written and integrated without being overly abundant. You dont have to like the VN but there is a difference between `not for me` and `bad`.

As for their place in the gaming world well I dont consider visual novels (proper viaual novels) games. In all I dont play many of them simply because there are so many and theres apparently a load of trash that I just cant be bothered to sort through. However all they are in essence is books with music and pictures all powerful mediums and they can certainly be used (and have been used) to create amazing experiences.

I used to be totally dismissive of them basically thought they were porn books and while some certainly are I consider myself corrected.
 

Someone Depressing

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I took a look into visual novels a while back and I mostly found smut and creepy shit.

Of course, there are the greats. Katawa whatever, Ace Attorney, Umineko, and other stuff mentioned on this list. Most I have played, however, are utter horseshit. The "horseshit" part has been literal in some places. Ew.

Poe's Law is hard in effect here. As always, I believe that nothing is inherently art, though art can be created in anything. And if you consider [redacted for your pleasure+sanity] art, then fine. Go ahead and pay tons of money for your moe moe eroge crap and be done with it.

The VSDB (Visual Novel Database) is a pretty good resource for finding the best and finding the worst, the major partition being which one has about three hours of garbage, boobs bigger than heads, and full-on hardcore loli guro that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting off to this very second. Then you can lose a little bit of faith in the world and move onto your next pile of bilge.
 

SquallTheBlade

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Someone Depressing said:
The VSDB (Visual Novel Database) is a pretty good resource for finding the best and finding the worst, the major partition being which one has about three hours of garbage, boobs bigger than heads, and full-on hardcore loli guro that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting off to this very second. Then you can lose a little bit of faith in the world and move onto your next pile of bilge.
So you lose faith in the world just because people enjoy things you don't? What a great way to look at the world. I would rather be happy that people can find enjoyment in something that I can't.
 

DOOM GUY

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I like VNs, there are some pretty damn good ones, I can't say I exactly consider them to be games though (though there are some exceptions), they're something of their own.
 

Mutant1988

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What is a game? An activity with a goal.
What is a book? Text that you read, often times a story, with a beginning and end.
What is the goal of books? To read them.

Ergo, a book with activity (Like choices) is a game. Maybe not a great one, but it's technically a game (To varying degrees). I wouldn't go as far as to say that reading constitutes gameplay though, being a fairly passive experience.

So yes, I do think visual novels are games and should be called games. That is, as long as they involve something more than just reading, be it simple choices to make throughout the game or elements of entirely difference genres such as adventure, puzzle, dating sim etc.

I have played some fantastic visual novels such as Corpse Party and Katawa Shoujo. They might not have a lot of gameplay but they make up for it a thousandfold with well written story and characters. Both fantastic games that I recommend checking out. I've also heard that Dangan Ronpa is excellent. It looks interesting, but I don't think I have a system that can play them.

I've also watched a long play of the game Saya No Uta and it's one of the most disturbing and sad horror stories I've ever read or seen. I highly recommend looking for it on Youtube. The videos I watched omitted or censored everything explicit.

If it's an entirely choice-less visual novel though I'd sooner call it a digital graphic novel (Regardless of whether it has audio as well) since that is the term for actual physical books that tell the story through both text and images. Maybe perhaps affix audio before novel (Digital graphic audio novel). I do believe they are already distinguished by the term "Kinetic Novel" by the Japanese.

It's easy to get bogged down in semantics, more so when the terms go across language barriers.
 

reverse_rpm

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Hmmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvX4hzqcqc

It can be stretched to apply towards VNs.
Exaclty as stated above, a "Digital graphic audio novel" should not be sold on Steam.
 

Mutant1988

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reverse_rpm said:
Hmmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvX4hzqcqc

It can be stretched to apply towards VNs.
Exaclty as stated above, a "Digital graphic audio novel" should not be sold on Steam.
What's sold on Steam is entirely the discretion of Valve.

Keep in mind that the Steam store already sell a whole lot more than just video games:

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_5_9__12&term=Software#sort_by=_ASC&category1=994&page=1
 

small

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ive played one and its a genre that doesnt appeal personally. as to where it fits, its still a game as far as im concerned
 

NPC009

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I wouldn't call all visual novels games (really depends on the number of choices and the results of said choices), but I think their existence as a medium between mediums is important. Games can only become better at story-telling if developers explore different genres and mediums.

As for if visual novels should be on Steam: that's for Valve to decide, isn't it? Personally, I rather like it. I like visual novels and being able to buy atleast a few of them by the same means as a good chunk of the games I play is convenient. Besides, it's not like it's bothering customers who aren't interested. Steams search engine and filters are decent enough, add in the customisable front page... Yeah, you don't even have to look at them if you don't want to.
 

Hagi

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I'd personally say the majority of visual novels aren't actually games. That's not to say that makes them any less, if I'm honest I think visual novels manage to be good exactly because they aren't games.

I'd put them closer to audio-books. Books leveraging the power of another medium for greater impact and ease of use.

I don't think having choices qualifies something as a game, I'd say what makes a game is having rules. And most (not all) visual novels don't really have those, at least not beyond click to make story continue (occasionally down different paths), much the same as a DVD (play, pause, select chapter etc.).

And yeah, this means that I personally consider things like Dear Esther to not be a game either. Probably more like an interactive movie. Which is fine, there's nothing magical about being a game that makes things better or worse. It's in no way a superior medium or anything like that, just a different one.

But my conclusion is rather simple. Games have rules. Visual novels (most) don't. Ergo visual novels (most) aren't games.
 

Tegual

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A visual novel is a game. Where it belongs in the gaming world, the same place that all other games exist, as something people can enjoy, which is of course one of the simplest definitions of the term game. Whether you like them or the genre or not, not every visual novel is the same like not every shooter or every rpg is the same.

Hagi said:
But my conclusion is rather simple. Games have rules. Visual novels (most) don't. Ergo visual novels (most) aren't games.
This is entirely untrue, the difference between most games and visual novels is that generally the rules are clear, for example a gun may only carry 7 bullets in a clip before you reload it. However, a visual novels rules are only clear after you have finished and 100%ed the entire game. This is because the choices you make are the rules. Almost all choices are tracked and have an outcome.

For example say there are 3 choices in a game. Each choice is label A, B and C. Generally if you choose all A's and the next time you choose all B's then there will be, even if only slightly, a different version of the story. These are the rules that define the visual novel and only by trying every choice and mapping out where each one leads can you see where everything leads. You are also no matter what type of visual novel you play confined by who you can talk to, the places you can go and what your answers will be. Basically one may say that in fact visual novels have stricter rules than most games since there is generally less freedom in them than most other games now days.
 

SquallTheBlade

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Tegual said:
This is entirely untrue, the difference between most games and visual novels is that generally the rules are clear, for example a gun may only carry 7 bullets in a clip before you reload it. However, a visual novels rules are only clear after you have finished and 100%ed the entire game. This is because the choices you make are the rules. Almost all choices are tracked and have an outcome.
But what about VNs that don't have choices? Or what about VNs where you can read routes only in certain order?

VNs by definition don't need choices so by definition they shouldn't be games. But there are some VNs that push the boundaries of what is a VN and what is a game by giving the reader many choices and/or puzzles/gameplay.
 

Mutant1988

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SquallTheBlade said:
But what about VNs that don't have choices? Or what about VNs where you can read routes only in certain order?

VNs by definition don't need choices so by definition they shouldn't be games. But there are some VNs that push the boundaries of what is a VN and what is a game by giving the reader many choices and/or puzzles/gameplay.
It's easy to apply rules to hypothetical scenarios.

If a novel does not involve any activity then yes, they would not be games, but novels.

If they involve even a slight activity then yes, they are games.

Whatever the case you can make a decision on whether a game or novel is for you when you encounter it, rather than try to dismiss an entire field of work on perceived merits or based on arbitrary conditions.

That is akin to Roger Ebert saying that games can't be art because of X or Y. It's completely unnecessary absolutism.
 

Hagi

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Tegual said:
A visual novel is a game. Where it belongs in the gaming world, the same place that all other games exist, as something people can enjoy, which is of course one of the simplest definitions of the term game. Whether you like them or the genre or not, not every visual novel is the same like not every shooter or every rpg is the same.

Hagi said:
But my conclusion is rather simple. Games have rules. Visual novels (most) don't. Ergo visual novels (most) aren't games.
This is entirely untrue, the difference between most games and visual novels is that generally the rules are clear, for example a gun may only carry 7 bullets in a clip before you reload it. However, a visual novels rules are only clear after you have finished and 100%ed the entire game. This is because the choices you make are the rules. Almost all choices are tracked and have an outcome.

For example say there are 3 choices in a game. Each choice is label A, B and C. Generally if you choose all A's and the next time you choose all B's then there will be, even if only slightly, a different version of the story. These are the rules that define the visual novel and only by trying every choice and mapping out where each one leads can you see where everything leads. You are also no matter what type of visual novel you play confined by who you can talk to, the places you can go and what your answers will be. Basically one may say that in fact visual novels have stricter rules than most games since there is generally less freedom in them than most other games now days.
By that logic a movie is a game with even stricter rules. You can press pause, you can press play, you can press load/eject and get an entirely different movie etc. There's also extremely strict rules on what scenes you can see and what scenes you can't.

But those aren't the rules of the visual novel or the movie itself. They're the rules of the genre.

A game has it's own rules meaning different games have different rules. It's why so many MMOs, military shooters and mobile games are accused of being clones or reskins. Because even though they have different art assets, a different story etc. They have pretty much the same rules and thus are considered pretty much the same game. Rules are a massive part of the unique identity of a game, something that clearly doesn't apply to visual novels.

Change the art assets and the story of a visual novel but not the rules and you've got a completely different product.
Change the art assets and the story of a game but not the rules and you've got a clone.

The vast majority of visual novels operate under the exact same set of rules. Your description of those rules above isn't the description of a particular game. It's a description of the genre.

As I said, there's exceptions. Visual novels exist that have rules unique to them that define part of their identity, usually in the form of mini-games. But for the most part visual novels don't have rules themselves, the genre has rules, the individual products that make up said genre usually don't.

A game is defined by it's rules. A visual novel is not. A visual novel is not a game.
 

NPC009

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Mutant1988 said:
It's easy to apply rules to hypothetical scenarios.

If a novel does not involve any activity then yes, they would not be games, but novels.

If they involve even a slight activity then yes, they are games.

Whatever the case you can make a decision on whether a game or novel is for you when you encounter it, rather than try to dismiss an entire field of work on perceived merits or based on arbitrary conditions.

That is akin to Roger Ebert saying that games can't be art because of X or Y. It's completely unnecessary absolutism.
What if they are neither? As mediums evolve into new ones, it makes sense to think up new words to describe these new mediums. We don't call movies photos. They were moving pictures, movies in short.

How about this: pure visual novels are neither books nor games. They are, I don't know, digital interactive experiences.

We're seeing a whole spectrum of electronic products that aren't quite games, from products such as Dear Esther and Gone Home to various virtual reality experiences. Instead of blindly labeling them games or not-games, we may be best of to think of them as something else.
 

Mutant1988

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NPC009 said:
Mutant1988 said:
It's easy to apply rules to hypothetical scenarios.

If a novel does not involve any activity then yes, they would not be games, but novels.

If they involve even a slight activity then yes, they are games.

Whatever the case you can make a decision on whether a game or novel is for you when you encounter it, rather than try to dismiss an entire field of work on perceived merits or based on arbitrary conditions.

That is akin to Roger Ebert saying that games can't be art because of X or Y. It's completely unnecessary absolutism.
What if they are neither? As mediums evolve into new ones, it makes sense to think up new words to describe these new mediums. We don't call movies photos. They were moving pictures, movies in short.

How about this: pure visual novels are neither books nor games. They are, I don't know, digital interactive experiences.

We're seeing a whole spectrum of electronic products that aren't quite games, from products such as Dear Esther and Gone Home to various virtual reality experiences. Instead of blindly labeling them games or not-games, we may be best of to think of them as something else.
Still, I think that trying to forcefully re-label works reeks of cultural elitism (I'm not directing this at you, we seem to be on the same page on this).

"You're allowed to have your things, but not to call them X or Y." is the impression I get from those adamantly insistent that visual novels aren't games.

As for you suggestion to call them something other than games, we already do that. We call them Visual Novels.

I think that's sufficient and if someone wants to call it a game or not I think is entirely at their own discretion. Because when you argue that X is or isn't a thing you're really just obsessing over semantics, because calling visual novels games does not degrade games.

If I may insert my own opinion here on the division between game or not game - It is when you actively engage with it for a specific goal that it is a game. Passively experiencing it, such as with music, movies and books (Turning a page is not really something you want to do, it's just necessary) is different from actively moving it towards the goal.

Which is why an entirely passive visual novel (Kinetic Novel) is something I would not call a game. It's a book with a different means to turn pages. While all the ones that actively require an action Like a choice by the player to progress, I would call a game.

I'm not an authority on this by any means, but I think this argument is fairly convincing.
 

maninahat

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Visual Novels are a potentially great idea, badly explored.

The standard format is to have a big bloody picture of a cartoon girl, and one sentence of poorly written prose on the screen at any one time. Even if these VNs were well written (and they hardly ever are), it would still be a terrible way to present the story to an adult reader. It's like The Very Hungry Caterpillar, only with worse artwork and more nudity. It's like reading a comic with 10,000 panels, each one showing the exact same picture, save for an occasional change in facial expression. In terms of player interaction, that is usually limited to an arbitrary choice every half hour or so. The purpose of this choice is always to either a) choose which girl you want to have sex with, or b) choose whether to get the jerk bad ending or the "nice guy" good ending. Note that the choices actually have nothing explicitly to do with either of those two things - I'd like to think that my decision to go to a library over going to the school roof shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether I fuck the chick with the glasses or my underage step-sister.

Christine Love has shown me that VNs can be done well. In her VNs:

a) Some thought is actually put into the interface, and how it could benefit the story being told.
b) The story usually has primary themes that aren't about having sex with children.
c) She looks at efficient ways of getting the story across, so that it doesn't take twenty minutes of your time to learn about an after-school club.
d) She actually features regular player interaction, in which the player can make meaningful decisions that immediately relate to what is currently going on, and maybe feel responsible for how you control your character in the setting.
e) She is a competent writer.

I have only recently discovered TWINE, and I am seeing a lot of good old fashioned text adventure stuff coming out of there. I see that as offering a lot more interesting source of games than the tired Japanese VN format.
 

SquallTheBlade

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maninahat said:
Visual Novels are a potentially great idea, badly explored.

The standard format is to have a big bloody picture of a cartoon girl, and one sentence of poorly written prose on the screen at any one time. Even if these VNs were well written (and they hardly ever are), it would still be a terrible way to present the story to an adult reader. It's like The Very Hungry Caterpillar, only with worse artwork and more nudity. It's like reading a comic with 10,000 panels, each one showing the exact same picture, save for an occasional change in facial expression. In terms of player interaction, that is usually limited to an arbitrary choice every half hour or so. The purpose of this choice is always to either a) choose which girl you want to have sex with, or b) choose whether to get the jerk bad ending or the "nice guy" good ending. Note that the choices actually have nothing explicitly to do with either of those two things - I'd like to think that my decision to go to a library over going to the school roof shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether I fuck the chick with the glasses or my underage step-sister.

Christine Love has shown me that VNs can be done well. In her VNs:

a) Some thought is actually put into the interface, and how it could benefit the story being told.
b) The story usually has primary themes that aren't about having sex with children.
c) She looks at efficient ways of getting the story across, so that it doesn't take twenty minutes of your time to learn about an after-school club.
d) She actually features regular player interaction, in which the player can make meaningful decisions that immediately relate to what is currently going on, and maybe feel responsible for how you control your character in the setting.
e) She is a competent writer.

I have only recently discovered TWINE, and I am seeing a lot of good old fashioned text adventure stuff coming out of there. I see that as offering a lot more interesting source of games than the tired Japanese VN format.
Feels like you have only read eroges. Have you tried reading other types of VNs? Because all those problems vanish when you step out of the eroge zone.