Wait, so video games aren't art?

[subject_87]

Games are indeed art, but we seem to shot ourselves in the foot a fair bit with by-the-numbers plots, cardboard cut-out characters, and bad writing in game after game, all of these things hindering a widespread view of games as art. There are admittedly many games that surpass all these things, but sadly they're the exception rather than the rule.

And besides, it's a time-honored tradition for the older generation to dismiss, fear and loathe the media that their children have created; before you know it we'll be up in arms about what are kids are doing. But by all means, take a step in the right direction and support games that would be worthy of having in a museum.

 

[WanderingBiscuits]

Just today in middle school English, we got a writing prompt about means of communication (art, music, literature) affecting peoples lives. After my teacher started to take questions I asked if video games were a form of art, and what do I get? She almost burst out laughing then said "Of course video games aren't art, thats solely a worthless technology!" I later asked if movies were considered art and she said they were. Now how aren't they art, compared to movies of course. They both have actors, plot twists, romances in some of them. That seems pretty art like to me. Is my English teacher as insane as I think she is?

Answer to last line: Yes

 

[LawlessSquirrel]

It's a new form of art, I'd say. It's not a passive experience like movies, but rather an active form of immersion, which is different but equal, in my opinion. You really should get her to define her version of 'art', because it seems to be a major factor in these things.

If you go by the whole fractal Science - Art - Philosophy method, of course it's art. Everything is part art, part science, and part philosophy, so games can't be signalled out for exclusion.

If it's the whole 'art evokes emotion' use, then of course video games count. How often do you play a game and feel nothing at all, and just consider yourself moving pixels on a screen?

Art conveying a message would be the same as the above.

It seems like her dismissing it all in one swoop without considering it first. It's not a wise way to treat anything, at all, but she's a teacher and they're trained to parrot what they're told to teach (no offence to teachers of course, not all actually follow that in practice). Chalk it up to arrogance, or try and intelligently debate it with her. If she doesn't listen or shuts you down, it's arrogance. If not, then it's ignorance.

If all else fails, do what I did: humour the teacher and try manipulating her as a personal game. Heh...now I sound evil...

EDIT: Oh, and on the 'worthless technology' stuff...try telling that to the war veterans and psychologically scarred people that use them to overcome intense issues that are otherwise nearly incurable. Seriously, tell her to research psychology of play and the studies of how virtual reality technology is being used. I'm not saying video games are great for your health, but in some circumstances they can be.

 

[Doive]

Art in general, not just high art is of course subjective which is partly my point. To be art, something must be viewed by someone, somewhere as art. A child can draw a picture but it won't have any meaning to them beyond colours on a page that looks vaguely like their pet. Within an hour they will have forgotten all about it and moved on to some other entertainment. I don't think that a game designer, who will work on certain aspects of a game, not the whole thing, will view that game as their artistic expression.

Art is forgotten and the child counts as "somebody." They put color and effort to paper and made an image of a creature they find dear to them. The expression and interpretation is there and they count as somebody, thus art.

And why are you trying to speak for game designers, exactly? A game designer is no different than a Pixar artist by your example as in they are all smaller parts of a greater whole. That whole... is still art. To-may-to, To-Mah-to. Same difference. And now I must go work, hopefully we can continue this later.

Ok, have funsies at work, view this post as your finishing work present!
I think that to be art something has to have a meaning and I mean more than just simple description. While meaning is obviously down to a given individual I don't think a child is capable of seeing past "this is my cat" and nobody else is going to see artistic meaning it.
I've never said that no games are art, I said that most aren't. My point is that at some point in the creative process a game designer making an artistic game should be thinking "I am making art right now".
For the massive games pumped out by the big studios they must have hordes of designers working on aspects of the game comparitively small compared to the finished product. While the individual drawings of landscapes etc could be considered art, the finished product was never intended to be.

 

[Jamous]

She's woefully uninformed about video games. Seriously, stereotypes much? Silly teacher.
Many video games, for example Okami or Shadow of the Colossus are far easier to view as art compared with many forms of modern art, for example the works of Tracey Emin or Damien Hurst are considered by some to be pretty shit, and worth nothing artistically. Personally I like Damien Hurst, but most people I know can't stand him. I hate Tracey Emin's works, yet many people adore them. Both artists have been payed millions for some of their works, and have them displayed at galleries. I could go into various philosophies of art (I'm doing an entire course on it in my Philosophy A Level), but I don't think I need to here. Video Games can quite easily be art, as I'm sure most of you fellow Escapists will agree; especially if Movies are to be considered art. Also (And we can all be a bit hypocritical when it comes to this point ) you really should withhold judgement on things until you've experienced them first hand, or have experienced an equivalent first hand. Basically I don't think we should judge if we don't understand (Yeah, massively hypocritical now. Oh well.). I wonder if anyone will bother trawling through this pseudo-philosophical ramble on art and judgement.....

 

[Trivun]

Just today in middle school English, we got a writing prompt about means of communication (art, music, literature) affecting peoples lives. After my teacher started to take questions I asked if video games were a form of art, and what do I get? She almost burst out laughing then said "Of course video games aren't art, thats solely a worthless technology!" I later asked if movies were considered art and she said they were. Now how aren't they art, compared to movies of course. They both have actors, plot twists, romances in some of them. That seems pretty art like to me. Is my English teacher as insane as I think she is?

She says that video games are "worthless technology"? Point her in the direction of Kinect. And then point at her and laugh at her for her ignorance and idiocy. That's all you have to do.

 

[Blind Sight]

Yeah she's just ignorant, I get that all the time from several older people I know, apparently a video game will never being as complicated or have in-depth themes like literature according to my uncle. Of course, he's never actually played any in-depth games, and he's also a Marxist who believes that technology is turning us into a 'cog in the machine' so you can see how biased and uneducated he is towards the subject.

 

[jmarquiso]

They are not art. They are made to make money only - how they look has nothing to do with it.

Do I need to raise the cheap-ass indie games? Hell, isn't that the whole point of films and pictures anyway? You think a big film is made purely to convey a message? No. It's to make money. So that argument falls straight down.

I won't deny that the majority of games are made to appeal to the general audience through cheap gimmicks, but then, for every Call of Duty I'm sure there's a RocknRolla. Or a Monster Ark. So yeah, some games are art, and some films simply aren't.
Take BioShock...that story is better than half the films I've seen. And the lines were spectacular...especially the big ol' spoiler.

Movies, music, plays, portraits, etc. were all made to make money on a certain level.

 

[Xanadu84]

Best article Ive read on the subject

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/08/on-authorship-i.html

If it doesn't convince her, it will completely go over her head, confusing her and makjing her look like a fool.

I was very sad to read that article, as I have great respect for Roger Ebert.

OP If you believe videogames are art, work out why you believe that. Do some research, and find legitimate sources that clarify and confirm your opinions, and put it to her in an intellectual way. Then you'll be taken seriously

Really? Because I read it, and thought it was pretty fair to Ebert. Of course, I read it from a textbook a while ago, and went and found an internet source to share it, maybe its not exactly what I first read, but I thought that it said that while Ebert was wrong, he does raise issues that game developers need to address. Most game enthusiasts just dismiss Ebert out of hand.

 

[Cpu46]

I say you find the most artful game you can and incorporate it into your papers, speeches, ect. Try and expose your teacher to this medium, possibly ask to play the Extra Credits episode on this topic in class.

 

[OManoghue]

She's just ignorant. Not necessarily in a bad way, but maybe she's too old or something to have actually learned anything about games.

 

[Verlander]

Best article Ive read on the subject

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/08/on-authorship-i.html

If it doesn't convince her, it will completely go over her head, confusing her and makjing her look like a fool.

I was very sad to read that article, as I have great respect for Roger Ebert.

OP If you believe videogames are art, work out why you believe that. Do some research, and find legitimate sources that clarify and confirm your opinions, and put it to her in an intellectual way. Then you'll be taken seriously

Really? Because I read it, and thought it was pretty fair to Ebert. Of course, I read it from a textbook a while ago, and went and found an internet source to share it, maybe its not exactly what I first read, but I thought that it said that while Ebert was wrong, he does raise issues that game developers need to address. Most game enthusiasts just dismiss Ebert out of hand.

I didn't explain my position well enough, sorry. I'm disappointed that Ebert came to that conclusion in the first place. I thought more of him than to make a silly comment like he had, when what he accused games of being, could be applied to his own genre of "art"

 

[bruunwald]

Middle School, eh? Well, welcome to the ages-old argument over what constitutes Art. This has been going on for centuries, and is likely to continue for some time to come.

See, art is subjective, which means everybody has a different idea not only of the merits of a particular work of art, but also a different idea as to what constitutes art in the first place. Particularly over the past century, with the rise of the advertising industry and mass popular culture, art classicists have struggled to create or destroy the defining line between what is actual art and what is strictly entertainment. (I personally find that a useless, provincial attitude, but there it is.)

I suggest you get used to this. I also suggest you seek better advice than any that will come from this forum, where tastes are likely to run toward the shallow end of the art pool, and arguments are likely to reflect that, as well. (No offense: that includes me.)

That said, maybe a good place to start is to go back to your teacher, and explain to her that some of the video games you've played contained amazing imagery, good plot structure, decent writing, high quality execution, and above all, and most importantly, made you think and made you feel something. At the very least, the minimum defining two qualities of art are that they are:

1. A creative endeavour
2. That provoked thought and an emotional response

There are many video games that meet at least that definition. And it's arguable that many films considered art met only that definition.

 

[sheah1]

My english teacher allowed me to do a speech on this for our speaking and listening grade, she was really, awesomely supportive and a different english teacher was equally supportive in a completely different instance, so bad luck man, sorry.

 

[BlackWaltz3]

Well I'd say she thinks she's right because of her lack of experience with the medium. Just like you can dismiss any film or book if you've never watched or read one. If it really bothers find a few good episodes of Extra Credits here on the escapist and show her, theyre brillant and really know how to argue for games

+1!

 

[ComicsAreWeird]

Games are art. Period. They interact with the beholder, they can convey emotions to the player (art must connect to people)and there is artistic merit in level design, sound, character concepts.

Anyone who tells you games are not art is either:

a. Lying or
b. Ignorant.

 

[The Stonker]

What gives her the right to say "what is art"?
What gives her the power to judge over such matters?
What gives anyone the power to judge anyone what is art?
But of course there is art that has no point and conveys nothing.

She's narrow minded and must be spanked!

 

[Lunar Templar]

Just today in middle school English, we got a writing prompt about means of communication (art, music, literature) affecting peoples lives. After my teacher started to take questions I asked if video games were a form of art, and what do I get? She almost burst out laughing then said "Of course video games aren't art, thats solely a worthless technology!" I later asked if movies were considered art and she said they were. Now how aren't they art, compared to movies of course. They both have actors, plot twists, romances in some of them. That seems pretty art like to me. Is my English teacher as insane as I think she is?

you sir, have just been issued a challenge, enlighten her to her misconceptions, use every resource you have to prove the medium as an art form, or your version of it anyway, but she sounds like an idiot so use small words >.>

 

[Reaper195]

Narrow minded who still things video games are simply for a couple of hours of entertainment a week and nothing else. People like this, it's so much easier, and better, to simply not bring it up and argue with them.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

Ask your teacher what she feels gives her the right to be an authority on a purely subjective medium?

My aunt works at the Glasgow school of art and agrees entirely with me when I say I have as much authority on what makes good art as she does and I'm a computer science student.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_School_of_Art

(incidentally her maiden name, also my sirname, is Mackintosh so if anyone has a right to be snobby its her)

It is a subjective medium and no amount of snobby "I'm right you are wrong" clique-ism is going to change that. Hell her most common complaint is about the snobbishness she has to deal with day to day from people who are as far removed from the artists they revere as its possible to get.