Warface Producer Defends Female Designs as "Cultural Relativism"

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
15,305
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FieryTrainwreck said:
So yeah. We should eventually take the hint and knock it off with these news reports and the predictably smug responses. It's getting to be a little embarrassing. Meet their drivel with your own ideas (backed by your own investments) or acknowledge the fact that your voices mean precisely fucking nothing in the face of economic factors larger than just about any one person can fathom.
An asinine observation that can be made of pretty much any criticism, regardless of its validity or scope. To use your logic; if you don't like the content of this site or its forums, you're free to start your own.

Not only is it a dull, and often hypocritical (I often see "free market" arguments when it comes to gender representation in games, but rarely when it comes to the ubiquity of military shooters, or regenerating health, or whatever overused mechanic is deemed "necessary" for a successful game), argument, it's one that essentially excuses artists for being shitty artists. It also fails to recognize the role successful products play in defining what's popular.
 

1Life0Continues

Not a Gamer, I Just Play Games
Jul 8, 2013
209
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0
'Slavery is a way of life, there's no point doing anything about it because that's just how it is.'
'Child molestation in third world countries is always going to happen, so why should we fight it?'
'Sexual assault against men in prison is a given, why should we try to change things?'

Just because a problem has existed for a long time, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought against. Doesn't mean intelligent people shouldn't find ways to push back against the majority. Doesn't mean we should just accept it. Period. The entire female gender is being reduced to simply 'look at the sex object' and people are advocating this is a good thing? You're a disgusting human being if you think that way.
 

CHUD

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Jun 11, 2013
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Res Plus said:
Really don't understand stand why developers even bother with these rubbish justifications, just say you are making the game you wants to make and tell the tiny but oh so vocal minority of Feminazis to go make their own game.
And if a game contained, say, blatant racism (not as part of story, as in; Bioshock Infinite, but REAL racism) - would you just exclaim that developers can make whatever game they want and that the "anti-racist fascists" (or whatever) can go make their own games?

I certainly hope not.

To put it simply: It is NOT okay to portray a group in a dergatory or objectifying way (if it is not relevant to the story) - even if it is YOUR game it (or movie, or book, or whatever). Unless there is an in-story reason for it, women soldiers in shooters should be presented the same way as their male counterparts - both in regards to competence and in regards to not walking around like they are only there for eye-candy.
 

Extragorey

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Dec 24, 2010
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There are no white males in those pictures! Racism! Blah blah blah...

But yeah, no matter what any developer does or says, somebody calls sexism/racism. That's life - accept it and move on to deliberately provoking such commentary in a manner that draws attention away from the competition.
 

Mangod

Senior Member
Feb 20, 2011
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21


One of these two are wearing proper combat attire. Can you guess which one?

Hint: It's the one dressed like the male Warface characters.
 

CHUD

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Jun 11, 2013
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Res Plus said:
I have a right to do stuff no matter how much real or imagined offense is taken.
Actually, no - you don't. And no matter how many times you claim so, it still won't be true. If you had made a game that portrayed the Nazis as being right, or a game that claimed that slavery was a good thing, or that portrayed people of any ethnic group as completely sub-human - you would likely be charged based on some kind of hate-crime law. And you should be.

My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such. That was the point of my analogy, but this seems to have been lost on you. So here I'm spelling it out. Perhaps for now, one can get away with straight out sexism. However, I'm hoping this will change - and that sexism WILL be treated as serious as racism and other hate-crimes in the future.

Maybe you HAVE the right to portray women as a sexualized joke, at present, but that does not MAKE it right... and in the end, maybe that right should be taken away. That is MY opinion, and it is part of what is discussed.

You see. Objectifying women is not just "NOT OK" - it is bad, evil, degrading... whatever negative term you prefer. And in the end, excuses made by chauvinists are just that - excuses - made because they enjoy seeing women reduced to objects for their own amusement and pleasure.

To continue my example of racism; it would not be acceptable to portray black people in a horrible dergatory manner just because it happened to amuse the people buying games. And it is unacceptable to do the same to women. Now, seeing that the gaming industry will keep pandering to these "brotards" if it can. Then yes, in the end - if they will not change, they should be MADE to change - by law. The same way laws were used to battle racism in the past.


And you are correct, that is the true face of us "evil feminazis" (well, OK, THIS feminazi, at least) - to challenge anyones "right" to portray women as second-class humans.
 

Friis

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Feb 6, 2009
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Amakusa said:
Seriously WTF, Give me sources cause most the stuff you say is bull or exaggerations of truths. 70% cases of domestic violence is against men with the women is the abuser. Umm no. So when i say sources i mean legitimate ones, preferable from academics, case law, or legislation. I do not want BS sources from some random generic "men that hates women agency" internet group.

Seriously

Crimes Act 1900 No 40 (NSW Australia)
Current version for 12 September 2013 to date (accessed 9 October 2013 at 21:13)
Part 3Division 10Section 61I



61I Sexual assault

Any person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person and who knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse is liable to imprisonment for 14 years.

Source http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+40+1900+cd+0+N
Please tell where is says that rape (sexual assault is the legal word in NSW) is man attacking women only in that definition? Seriously you are exaggerating or literally pulling shite out of thin air.

And here is an example of the the New York State Legislature of a Rape Crime which is a USA jurisdiction.

Penal


§ 130.35 Rape in the first degree.
A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person:
1. By forcible compulsion; or
2. Who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless;
or
3. Who is less than eleven years old; or
4. Who is less than thirteen years old and the actor is eighteen years old or more.
Rape in the first degree is a class B felony.

Source http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS
As again please tell which jurisdictions have rape as man raping women only, because you have made some very BIG generalisations.

The only valid case you might have is in relation to the family court. However you don't go to jail in Australia for failed child support. You can get sued. However if you tried to commit fraud to avoid paying, then you could go to jail possible since fraud is a crime and that would be separate case pursued by the ATO or the Crown (state).

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2013C00465 Is the link for the child support law.

Listen its okay to for you to say you dislike women and think they are second rate people. Be honest instead of outright misrepresenting things and making weak links with no sources and with no context. This reminds me of the White guy defense force carton on critical miss that enraged some readers a few weeks ago.
Alrighty, here we go.
First of all, I did not say that 70% of domestic violence was a woman beating her man. Please do practice some reading comprehension for this post.
What I said amounts to 50% of domestic violence being a man and a woman abusing each other, 33'ish% being a woman abusing a man and 17% being a man abusing a woman.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf (keep this one open in a tab, I will be referring to it a lot... for now, go to pages 37-49)
While the CDC numbers don't quite match the numbers in the Martin Fiebert analysis, they do get quite close, which is impressive for a survey that is biased enough against men to define being made to sexually penetrate someone else as something other than rape.
So please do try to refrain from using straw-man arguments here... it's unbecoming.
Now, with these facts in mind, try doing a google search for "government funded shelters for men"... see if you can find any.

The Duluth Model is the pre-eminent model for treating Domestic Violence, and the American Police force is trained in it by power of the Violence Against Women Act. This is all fairly common knowledge. What most people ignore however, is how the Duluth Model blatantly discriminates against men.
The Duluth Model posits that violence and abuse between intimate partners is definitionally male violence, and that victimization in domestic abuse is definitionally female victimization.
In the Duluth Model, all violence and abuse is male-sourced, even that which is perpetrated by women. Female-initiated violence and abuse does not exist, because all such violence or abuse must, in the framework of the Duthuth model, be either in self defense from a male aggressor, or in response to pre-existing male-initiated abuse and violence. Indeed, the Duluth Model posits a psychological framework of domination, control and aggression onto the male psyche, as if masculinity itself is a malignant, violent mental disorder.
All violence is male. All victimization is female. Female abusers don?t exist, male victims don?t exist. In fact, the causes of violence within intimate relationships, such as poverty, mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, poor communication or coping skills, childhood trauma, PTSD and other causes, none of these things exist either. Or, if they exist, they do so separate from, and with no causal relationship to domestic violence or abuse. In Duluth, all abuse is male, and masculinity is a synonym for ?abusive?, ?aggressive? and ?violent?.
http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/resources.html
Go ahead and read up on it from their own material, they barely even try to hide their bigotry.

As for Title IX, if you're not going to believe me, then maybe you're going to believe a fellow feminist.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html
Strange how a law that was advertised as a way to get more female students into sports has somehow given school tribunals the power to do criminal investigations.
"She Fears You" lectures are very much real and of course are only one of the examples of how male college students are demonized, stating that it is men's responsibility to prove that they are not rapists.

Funny how you should bring up New York State Law as an example of how I'm wrong, since even feminists criticize New York State Legislature for defining rape only as vaginal penetration and not also anal and oral pentration.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/26/when_the_law_wont_call_it_rape/
And since it's pretty much impossible to penetrate a man's vagina, then it is legally impossible to rape a man in the State of New York.
So your so-called gender-neutral legislation isn't worth the shit it could hold as toilet paper.
I'm not very well read on Australian law, but I do know that you have your fair share of problems with misandrous legislation.

Since you called bullshit on everything I said except my family court claim, that must mean you also didn't believe me when I said that the percentage of male victims of being "forced to penetrate" matched the percentage of female victims of rape.
If you already have the tab for the CDC report open, go to pages 18 and 19 then have a look at the 12 month period stats for female rape victims as well as male victims of being "made to penetrate".
If not, here's the link again:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

"There are several Federal Offices for Women's Health and none for Men's Health, despite men having on average 5 years shorter lifespans."
You're seriously demanding sources for this? This shit is common fucking knowledge that a 10-second google search will easily confirm.

"Significant government funding goes into making the job-market more woman friendly and safe for women, meanwhile 95% of all workplace deaths are men."
Affirmative action isn't about hiring the most qualified person. It's about purposely advantaging people who are not the most qualified.
Oh, and I'm terribly sorry about reciting statistics off the top of my head and getting them wrong by a whopping 2%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality
Look under "Risk Factors".
Funny how getting women into more leadership positions is seen as one of the main ways of achieving equality, but getting more women into, shitty, hard and unhealthy lines of work isn't.

Next up we have my sources for sex disparities in criminal sentencing.
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf
You're welcome.

Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
In other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths in 2001 were male.
Now... this is where I will admit to having made a mistake.
A divorced man is not ten times more likely to commit suicide than a married man... he's only three times more likely to commit suicide. He is however ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced woman. I got those two factoids mixed up.
And as always, my source: http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm
Maybe you've heard of this man: http://thomasjamesball.com/

But hey, you don't have to listen to me. You can just accuse me of hating women and be done with it, like most other people do.
 

Aidan(Roland)

New member
May 5, 2013
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rbstewart7263 said:
Aidan(Roland) said:
Say what you will about Call of Duty, the female characters are realistic.

Oh hang on, there aren't any. Well if there were, they could potentially be realistic, so that at least counts for something.

(anybody think the sniper looks an awful lot like early MGS 5 character art for Quiet the Sniper?)
actually the new ones got em and last I checked there consistant with the male designs.
Cool. The only character I could remember was the chopper pilot from Modern Warfare 1, and I'm pretty sure she's just a voice in your ear.
 

Trillovinum

New member
Dec 15, 2010
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Ryan Minns said:
Is it just me or does the female snipers left hand seem... not right?
of course it's not right, it's her left hand ;p would be odd if her left hand was also right...

Joking aside I can actually get really annoyed by these things. The female soldiers just look awfully unpractical and waaay too different from their male coleagues. A small difference I can understand as they should still be visually distinguishable but they shouldn't be sexualised. (because honestly why would you play a shooter for sex, or is that just me...)
Anyway, such things break my imersion...
And i'll leave you with this last thing, I usually look to the female marines and army troopers in the halo series (2 through reach since I can't comment on 4 as I haven't played that one)on how to do it right.
 

Amakusa

New member
Jul 12, 2012
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Friis said:
Amakusa said:
Alrighty, here we go.
First of all, I did not say that 70% of domestic violence was a woman beating her man. Please do practice some reading comprehension for this post.
What I said amounts to 50% of domestic violence being a man and a woman abusing each other, 33'ish% being a woman abusing a man and 17% being a man abusing a woman.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf (keep this one open in a tab, I will be referring to it a lot... for now, go to pages 37-49)
While the CDC numbers don't quite match the numbers in the Martin Fiebert analysis, they do get quite close, which is impressive for a survey that is biased enough against men to define being made to sexually penetrate someone else as something other than rape.
So please do try to refrain from using straw-man arguments here... it's unbecoming.
Now, with these facts in mind, try doing a google search for "government funded shelters for men"... see if you can find any.

The Duluth Model is the pre-eminent model for treating Domestic Violence, and the American Police force is trained in it by power of the Violence Against Women Act. This is all fairly common knowledge. What most people ignore however, is how the Duluth Model blatantly discriminates against men.
The Duluth Model posits that violence and abuse between intimate partners is definitionally male violence, and that victimization in domestic abuse is definitionally female victimization.
In the Duluth Model, all violence and abuse is male-sourced, even that which is perpetrated by women. Female-initiated violence and abuse does not exist, because all such violence or abuse must, in the framework of the Duthuth model, be either in self defense from a male aggressor, or in response to pre-existing male-initiated abuse and violence. Indeed, the Duluth Model posits a psychological framework of domination, control and aggression onto the male psyche, as if masculinity itself is a malignant, violent mental disorder.
All violence is male. All victimization is female. Female abusers don?t exist, male victims don?t exist. In fact, the causes of violence within intimate relationships, such as poverty, mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, poor communication or coping skills, childhood trauma, PTSD and other causes, none of these things exist either. Or, if they exist, they do so separate from, and with no causal relationship to domestic violence or abuse. In Duluth, all abuse is male, and masculinity is a synonym for ?abusive?, ?aggressive? and ?violent?.
http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/resources.html
Go ahead and read up on it from their own material, they barely even try to hide their bigotry.

As for Title IX, if you're not going to believe me, then maybe you're going to believe a fellow feminist.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html
Strange how a law that was advertised as a way to get more female students into sports has somehow given school tribunals the power to do criminal investigations.
"She Fears You" lectures are very much real and of course are only one of the examples of how male college students are demonized, stating that it is men's responsibility to prove that they are not rapists.

Funny how you should bring up New York State Law as an example of how I'm wrong, since even feminists criticize New York State Legislature for defining rape only as vaginal penetration and not also anal and oral pentration.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/26/when_the_law_wont_call_it_rape/
And since it's pretty much impossible to penetrate a man's vagina, then it is legally impossible to rape a man in the State of New York.
So your so-called gender-neutral legislation isn't worth the shit it could hold as toilet paper.
I'm not very well read on Australian law, but I do know that you have your fair share of problems with misandrous legislation.

Since you called bullshit on everything I said except my family court claim, that must mean you also didn't believe me when I said that the percentage of male victims of being "forced to penetrate" matched the percentage of female victims of rape.
If you already have the tab for the CDC report open, go to pages 18 and 19 then have a look at the 12 month period stats for female rape victims as well as male victims of being "made to penetrate".
If not, here's the link again:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

"There are several Federal Offices for Women's Health and none for Men's Health, despite men having on average 5 years shorter lifespans."
You're seriously demanding sources for this? This shit is common fucking knowledge that a 10-second google search will easily confirm.

"Significant government funding goes into making the job-market more woman friendly and safe for women, meanwhile 95% of all workplace deaths are men."
Affirmative action isn't about hiring the most qualified person. It's about purposely advantaging people who are not the most qualified.
Oh, and I'm terribly sorry about reciting statistics off the top of my head and getting them wrong by a whopping 2%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality
Look under "Risk Factors".
Funny how getting women into more leadership positions is seen as one of the main ways of achieving equality, but getting more women into, shitty, hard and unhealthy lines of work isn't.

Next up we have my sources for sex disparities in criminal sentencing.
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf
You're welcome.

Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
In other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths in 2001 were male.
Now... this is where I will admit to having made a mistake.
A divorced man is not ten times more likely to commit suicide than a married man... he's only three times more likely to commit suicide. He is however ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced woman. I got those two factoids mixed up.
And as always, my source: http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm
Maybe you've heard of this man: http://thomasjamesball.com/

But hey, you don't have to listen to me. You can just accuse me of hating women and be done with it, like most other people do.
Cool beans, thanks for that, you have given me info which will take time for me too look at and digest. So i may or may not reply in a timely manner pending time restraints (Assignments and stuff). I will read that info and if appropriate will comment.

Thanks again. Ta
 

blackrave

New member
Mar 7, 2012
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Why every developer steps in the same trap when designing characters?
Sexy and revealing can work
BUT
only when designing light/no armor versions of characters
You're following?
If you want to have more revealing characters in game like this, fine you can
But only if is a one version of character and options are available for both genders
How could it work?
Lets take sniper as example.
What we have right now is lightly-armored male and unarmored female
Now lets make both options for both genders
Lightly armored female would look similarly to male counterpart (with vest, pouches, etc.)
While unarmored male could look closer to female counterpart (no armor, less pouches, etc.)
One option would provide higher armor rating, a bit more ammo, one more special item slot (if there is a thing like that in that in Warface), but at a cost of lower movement speed and bigger frame.
While another would allow for higher speed and smaller frame, but at a cost of decreased armor, ammo and equipment
I'm sure both options would be realistic and used by players
 

Paradoxrifts

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Jan 17, 2010
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CHUD said:
Res Plus said:
I have a right to do stuff no matter how much real or imagined offense is taken.
Actually, no - you don't. And no matter how many times you claim so, it still won't be true. If you had made a game that portrayed the Nazis as being right, or a game that claimed that slavery was a good thing, or that portrayed people of any ethnic group as completely sub-human - you would likely be charged based on some kind of hate-crime law. And you should be.

My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such. That was the point of my analogy, but this seems to have been lost on you. So here I'm spelling it out. Perhaps for now, one can get away with straight out sexism. However, I'm hoping this will change - and that sexism WILL be treated as serious as racism and other hate-crimes in the future.

Maybe you HAVE the right to portray women as a sexualized joke, at present, but that does not MAKE it right... and in the end, maybe that right should be taken away. That is MY opinion, and it is part of what is discussed.

You see. Objectifying women is not just "NOT OK" - it is bad, evil, degrading... whatever negative term you prefer. And in the end, excuses made by chauvinists are just that - excuses - made because they enjoy seeing women reduced to objects for their own amusement and pleasure.

To continue my example of racism; it would not be acceptable to portray black people in a horrible dergatory manner just because it happened to amuse the people buying games. And it is unacceptable to do the same to women. Now, seeing that the gaming industry will keep pandering to these "brotards" if it can. Then yes, in the end - if they will not change, they should be MADE to change - by law. The same way laws were used to battle racism in the past.


And you are correct, that is the true face of us "evil feminazis" (well, OK, THIS feminazi, at least) - to challenge anyones "right" to portray women as second-class humans.

You know it that is not all that ironic for a person to refer to themselves as a Nazi when they go on to show themselves to be a blatant, unrepentant totalitarian who is willing and eager to quash the concept of free speech and legislate their moral outlook into law.
 

CHUD

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Jun 11, 2013
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Paradoxrifts said:
You know it that is not all that ironic for a person to refer to themselves as a Nazi when they go on to show themselves to be a blatant, unrepentant totalitarian who is willing and eager to quash the concept of free speech and legislate their moral outlook into law.
Actually, both sides seem to want to "legislate their moral outlook into law".

The person I'm arguing with wants legal protection of the "right" to portray women as second-class humans.

I want legal protection for women to not be portrayed this way. To make dehumanization of women illegal.


Basically: We BOTH want the law to support our way of seeing things. So I am no more a fascist than he is - hence I can safely label myself "femiNAZI" ironically. If I am a totalitarean, then so is he.
 

Aeshi

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Dec 22, 2009
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Screw the Sexism thing, I want to know who the fuck came up with the name "Warface", that's even worse than "Warfighter", because at least the latter makes some sort of sense (It's called Warfighter because you Fight Wars)

It sounds like some sort of War-themed Zynga game you'd play on Facebook.
 

b.w.irenicus

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Apr 16, 2013
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My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such.
Yeah, sorry, but to me a game with unrealisticly revealing cloths for females is not as serious as a game that, say, promotes the holocaust.
 

CHUD

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Jun 11, 2013
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b.w.irenicus said:
Yeah, sorry, but to me a game with unrealisticly revealing cloths for females is not as serious as a game that, say, promotes the holocaust.
Well, obviously those two are not to scale. I suppose maybe the Indian/Chinese "gendercide" of girl babies might be closer to the Holocaust. Displaying women in unrealistic revealing clothing is closer to "casual racism" in severity - as I see it.