Warface Producer Defends Female Designs as "Cultural Relativism"

[dyre]

Nothing we can do is wrong! Someone approves somewhere! - people who do ethical relativism wrong

I didn't know ethical relativism could be done right!

 

[DementedSheep]

Well you could say it is indicative of our culture. The culture that tend judges woman by how pretty a piece of meat they are to fuck and everything else is secondary at best.? But it?s culture!? is not defense of anything on its own. If you going to use your female characters as fanservece despite the guys being sensible at least be honest about it.

 

[LordLundar]

As someone who actually read the original article and not the badly edited version here (funny how you cut out the question calling the company's Russian consumer base misogynistic) I found that the company gathered feedback from their user base and made concessions without ignoring it but it's inherently bad because of the outcome of doing so.

Yes, if Crytek wanted total realism then they would have the women as similar design to the men but slightly different models. But you can't scream "the developers/publishers aren't listening to us!" then when they finally do scream "they're wrong for listening to us!"

It does boil down the old argument: vote with your wallet. If you were going to play it but this turned you off (though I recommend you wait until the NA models are done, you might find different results) then go to Crytek's forums and let them know politely that you won't because of it and walk away. If you had no intention of playing it anyways then it's bust to silently disregard it as your opinions mean nothing to them anyways. In any case, screaming "this offends me!" on a forum that devs/publishers largely ignore as an easily offended circle-jerk (and this place can be described as no less than that) is a waste of time and effort.

Do I care for the female avatars? not really. But I didn't care for the game in the first place so I'm largely unaffected by what Russian teens want and my ranting will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Friis]

Screw the Sexism thing, I want to know who the fuck came up with the name "Warface", that's even worse than "Warfighter", because at least the latter makes some sort of sense (It's called Warfighter because you Fight Wars)

It sounds like some sort of War-themed Zynga game you'd play on Facebook.

It's probably a reference to the whole "Let me see your warface!" quote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn7JtYbyj4M

 

[Paradoxrifts]

You know it that is not all that ironic for a person to refer to themselves as a Nazi when they go on to show themselves to be a blatant, unrepentant totalitarian who is willing and eager to quash the concept of free speech and legislate their moral outlook into law.

Actually, both sides seem to want to "legislate their moral outlook into law".

The person I'm arguing with wants legal protection of the "right" to portray women as second-class humans.

I want legal protection for women to not be portrayed this way. To make dehumanization of women illegal.


Basically: We BOTH want the law to support our way of seeing things. So I am no more a fascist than he is - hence I can safely label myself "femiNAZI" ironically. If I am a totalitarean, then so is he.

But that isn't true at all.

So far as I can tell he supports letting companies and the people who run them make whatever creative decisions they want. That's a libertarian position. On the other hand you want to make it illegal for people to create and share media that is contrary to your own moral belief structure. You have expressly laid out that you do not the government to allow individuals the choice of whether or not they want to view and engage in content that you do not approve of. Why you've taken that position is irrelevant to the fact that it is a totalitarian position.

I am immediately wary and suspicious of anyone who comes to me claiming to speak on behalf of approximately 3.38 billion individuals. In fact, I think whatever small degree of 'dehumanizing' women this game is guilty of is in comparison completely benign, to the way that you would need to strip women of their individuality so that you can decide what is best for them on their behalf.

 

[Therumancer]

The fuck is this guy babbling about? Will female soldiers in Muslim regions be wearing burkas?

It's another attempt to claim sexism by pointing to the fact that the basic female models represent a degree of physical perfection, much like the male models do, but given that this makes the ladies attractive to guys it must be sexist and thus wrong. The gist of the article is that while the models are tweaked slightly for each nation/area they are supposed to be from, all of them are busty.

As I've pointed out many times it's a non-argument since this is pretty much the kind of look/character female creators tend to make for themselves, even when writing primarily for a female audience. As such it does what it's supposed to rather well. There is however attention to be gained from taking a fantasy game (even one trying to claim a degree of realism) and picking on the female models, so you see it. It's sort of like how nearly every male model in the game is probably drawn with at least above average muscle definition and where that if they were to drop their gear they would all probably not be out of place on the cover of muscle and fitness.

As far as what female muslim "soldiers" wear, that's a touchy subject even within the Muslim world. For the most part in regions where Burkas are common women are not allowed in the military. Women who join terrorist groups actively are fairly rare, but when it does happen they tend to wear whatever is appropriate to blend in or what is on hand. Simply allowing this kind of thing is something of a divide. As much as people might want to see "Muslims" as one particular culture, there are actually many different varieties (going beyond the well known Sunnis and Shiites) and they all tend to hate each other, even if they often prioritize outsiders first. Almost all of these cultures are effectively opposed to the US and progressive living when you get down to it, and thus can be generally defined as "enemies" from a US perspective, internally there are a lot of divides. This is one of the big reasons why so many Middle Eastern leaders like to call the US and it's allies "Crusaders" and call for "Jihad", which is a call for all Muslims to put aside their differences and attack a common enemy before returning to their own conflicts. It's met with mixed results. Saddam and Bin Ladin themselves oftentimes tried to liken themselves to modern day versions of "Saladin" who was perhaps the most successful Muslim leader during the crusades due to him getting the various tribes, cults, and sects to temporarily put aside their internal business and fight against foreign invaders. Albiet in the case of Saddam and Bin Ladin it was effectively a call for offensive warfare and terrorism. To be honest a game like this might be unusually divisive (War On Terror aside) in the Muslim world, as opinions on whether or not having women in the military to begin with can be a source of substantial tension. To one group (a relative minority0 that allows it it might be no big deal, to others it might be seen as being obscene. It all depends on whether your dealing with one of those beautiful indigenous cultures that gets all butthurt when female foreign leaders don't wear Burkas and at least pretend to submit to men during meetings. In such cases there wouldn't be anything like "women in the military" after all, just showing their hands enough to properly hold a gun would be a reason for a
firm beating at the very least.

 

[Dansrage]

Let's be honest nobody who complains about this kind of thing is going to play their game anyway, so why should they listen to you?

The people who cry "as a proud feminist this is an outrage I will picket your studio" must make up about 0.5% of the entire market.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I'd like to know how many artists on that team honestly thought that was a great idea and were honestly behind it. These people should consider themselves fortunate that the fashion police aren't actually real.

Also, how can I vote with my wallet if it's free to play???? Dear God, it's the perfect crime.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Meanwhile, on Planetside 2, not a bare boob in sight. In fact, most of the time you can't even clearly see their faces! Only the Infiltrators wear something enticing and their male counterparts also have the same skintight catsuit.

My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such.

Yeah, sorry, but to me a game with unrealisticly revealing cloths for females is not as serious as a game that, say, promotes the holocaust.

No one is currently perpetrating a holocaust against the Jews, though I'm certain some people would like to. Discrimination against women is very very alive and well in many parts of the world. MINOR EDIT! PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO SNEAK THIS IN!

What they are doing here isn't as extreme as supporting the holocaust, I never would say that, but it does support the certain belief that a women's worth is tied to her appearance. These ladies look like they carefully chose what they would wear based on how they looked rather than any practical purpose. The men are made out of pockets because that's a bit more sensible to wear on a battlefield than a shirt that shows off the chest a bit. It's the idea that even when women are doing something that doesn't require beauty, they still must be beautiful. That's utter nonsense.

Discriminating against someone for physical characteristics they absolutely can't control is the same issue regardless of if it's done for race or gender. People might be more often killed for differences of race, it's easier to argue(propagandize) a wholly different group of people aren't really people deserving the right to live rather than approximately half the population of everywhere, but the issues are the same at heart.

 

[Dansrage]

Meanwhile, on Planetside 2, not a bare boob in sight. In fact, most of the time you can't even clearly see their faces! Only the Infiltrators wear something enticing and their male counterparts also have the same skintight catsuit.

My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such.

Yeah, sorry, but to me a game with unrealisticly revealing cloths for females is not as serious as a game that, say, promotes the holocaust.

No one is currently perpetrating a holocaust against the Jews, though I'm certain some people would like to. Discrimination against women is very very alive and well in many parts of the world. MINOR EDIT! PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO SNEAK THIS IN!

What they are doing here isn't as extreme as supporting the holocaust, I never would say that, but it does support the certain belief that a women's worth is tied to her appearance. These ladies look like they carefully chose what they would wear based on how they looked rather than any practical purpose. The men are made out of pockets because that's a bit more sensible to wear on a battlefield than a shirt that shows off the chest a bit. It's the idea that even when women are doing something that doesn't require beauty, they still must be beautiful. That's utter nonsense.

Discriminating against someone for physical characteristics they absolutely can't control is the same issue regardless of if it's done for race or gender. People might be more often killed for differences of race, it's easier to argue(propagandize) a wholly different group of people aren't really people deserving the right to live rather than approximately half the population of everywhere, but the issues are the same at heart.

If you're so worried about the welfare of women around the world, why not focus your time and attention on more important issues like female circumcision in Africa, arranged marriage, women's rights in the Arab world, human trafficking in Eastern Europe, domestic violence, people being stoned for adultery, birth control rights, little girls being shot by the Taliban for attending schools?

You, and everyone like you, seem to think that the biggest problem facing women is the size of their breasts in video games, which betrays your actual concerns which are not anything to do with the welfare of women, but with enforcing your hangups and socio-political ideas on non-consenting people through brow-beating and name calling.
You want to influence a medium and force it to conform to your extremist, minority views and you use feminism as a tool to accomplish that goal, in opposition of all freedom of expression.

You're no more a feminist than anti-abortion advocates are pro-Christian, it's just a means to an end.

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

While you're right Dansrage, it doesn't take away that the portrayal of women in video games and the attitude towards women in the gaming community and industry is problematic and needs fixing. That said~

I'd like to know how many artists on that team honestly thought that was a great idea and were honestly behind it. These people should consider themselves fortunate that the fashion police aren't actually real.

Also, how can I vote with my wallet if it's free to play???? Dear God, it's the perfect crime.

Could try to play and regularly download the game without making a single microtransaction, you'd be taxing their servers without giving them any money, effectively costing them, if very little.

 

[Friis]

While you're right Dansrage, it doesn't take away that the portrayal of women in video games and the attitude towards women in the gaming community and industry is problematic and needs fixing. That said~

I'd like to know how many artists on that team honestly thought that was a great idea and were honestly behind it. These people should consider themselves fortunate that the fashion police aren't actually real.

Also, how can I vote with my wallet if it's free to play???? Dear God, it's the perfect crime.

Could try to play and regularly download the game without making a single microtransaction, you'd be taxing their servers without giving them any money, effectively costing them, if very little.

You mean like how the portrayal of violence in video games and the attitude towards violence in the gaming community and industry needs fixing? Cause we all know how much games and their depictions of violence is affecting our impressionable youth.

 

[Olas]

Why can't they just put the female characters in bikini's? It would look less stupid than designing full battle gear with a boob window installed, and it would give their target audience more of what they want.

In fact, since I'm assuming the game will get an M rating anyway why not just go for strait up nudity?

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Meanwhile, on Planetside 2, not a bare boob in sight. In fact, most of the time you can't even clearly see their faces! Only the Infiltrators wear something enticing and their male counterparts also have the same skintight catsuit.

My claim is that sexism is no less serious than racism, and should be not be treated as such.

Yeah, sorry, but to me a game with unrealisticly revealing cloths for females is not as serious as a game that, say, promotes the holocaust.

No one is currently perpetrating a holocaust against the Jews, though I'm certain some people would like to. Discrimination against women is very very alive and well in many parts of the world. MINOR EDIT! PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO SNEAK THIS IN!

What they are doing here isn't as extreme as supporting the holocaust, I never would say that, but it does support the certain belief that a women's worth is tied to her appearance. These ladies look like they carefully chose what they would wear based on how they looked rather than any practical purpose. The men are made out of pockets because that's a bit more sensible to wear on a battlefield than a shirt that shows off the chest a bit. It's the idea that even when women are doing something that doesn't require beauty, they still must be beautiful. That's utter nonsense.

Discriminating against someone for physical characteristics they absolutely can't control is the same issue regardless of if it's done for race or gender. People might be more often killed for differences of race, it's easier to argue(propagandize) a wholly different group of people aren't really people deserving the right to live rather than approximately half the population of everywhere, but the issues are the same at heart.

If you're so worried about the welfare of women around the world, why not focus your time and attention on more important issues like female circumcision in Africa, arranged marriage, women's rights in the Arab world, human trafficking in Eastern Europe, domestic violence, people being stoned for adultery, birth control rights, little girls being shot by the Taliban for attending schools?

You, and everyone like you, seem to think that the biggest problem facing women is the size of their breasts in video games, which betrays your actual concerns which are not anything to do with the welfare of women, but with enforcing your hangups and socio-political ideas on non-consenting people through brow-beating and name calling.
You want to influence a medium and force it to conform to your extremist, minority views and you use feminism as a tool to accomplish that goal, in opposition of all freedom of expression.

You're no more a feminist than anti-abortion advocates are pro-Christian, it's just a means to an end.

Yup, not painting with a broad brush at all there are we? I'd say no larger than a push broom.

Oh, and I'd like to know, what precisely is the endgame here? What's my agenda?

You take one hell of a leap on one post, assuming you know anything about my beliefs. The guy I originally posted said something I consider stupid. Saying, Well, at least it's not supporting the holocaust, is a shitty justification for any action. I tried to politely and intelligently say this was full of shit, because it is.

If asserting social pressure is wrong, what are you currently doing differently? Oh, is it because it's your opinion and therefore, it's correct? Another point is one of my personal philosophies, you don't have to be like me, you're always free, but that doesn't mean I don't have the freedom to call you out on it. You've still got the freedom to ignore me entirely, I believe you could have exercised it.

Finally, I'm sure you've got some cause you support, like say, democracy or freedom of expression, that you don't strive to aid the people most bereft of these things because it's wholly out of your ability to influence these things. I'm a passive supporter of many things. Few things I can actually effect are worth going out and doing something about them. I am always willing to talk though, mostly because arguing is fun. Could I do more? Certainly. I'm sure we all could.

 

[thehorror2]

Stop stealing anthropology buzzwords to justify your lazy character design. (Not that this is a common phenomenon. It's the first time I've seen a company actually try -however lazily- to justify their stupid, sexist character designs.

 

[Friis]

Stop stealing anthropology buzzwords to justify your lazy character design. (Not that this is a common phenomenon. It's the first time I've seen a company actually try -however lazily- to justify their stupid, sexist character designs.

To be honest, if anyone is guilty of using meaningless buzz words, it's the proliferation of half digested, first year gender studies buzz words employed by this rather tedious modern trend for "feminist" computer game opinion pieces. It does help you choose which one to ignore, I suppose, though "male gaze" was a new one on me and drew me in. Thought I'd check out the "debate" and it's the same as ever: a minority of posturing totalitarian keyboard activists loudly trying to censor and bully under the guise of altruism, in an attempt to underline how wonderfully open minded they are, and then... everyone else just trying to enjoy their games.

Sometimes I really wish there was some kind of up-voting system on these forums.
Oh but didn't you know that male eyes and their male gaze have the power to violently traumatize the poor womenz? That's why they have laws against making women feel uncomfortable in France.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

So yeah. We should eventually take the hint and knock it off with these news reports and the predictably smug responses. It's getting to be a little embarrassing. Meet their drivel with your own ideas (backed by your own investments) or acknowledge the fact that your voices mean precisely fucking nothing in the face of economic factors larger than just about any one person can fathom.

An asinine observation that can be made of pretty much any criticism, regardless of its validity or scope. To use your logic; if you don't like the content of this site or its forums, you're free to start your own.

Not only is it a dull, and often hypocritical (I often see "free market" arguments when it comes to gender representation in games, but rarely when it comes to the ubiquity of military shooters, or regenerating health, or whatever overused mechanic is deemed "necessary" for a successful game), argument, it's one that essentially excuses artists for being shitty artists. It also fails to recognize the role successful products play in defining what's popular.

So what's the plan? We can't force them to legislate against tasteless depictions of women in media because media is, for the most part, an artistic endeavor. Creators make whatever they want to make, and they frequently allow market research to guide them (especially where corporate investment is involved). The solution has always been, and still remains, for affected individuals to put their fucking money where their mouths are and either purchase or develop the games they want to see. This crusade on the part of the "enlightened" gaming media to shame developers into idiotically not following their own market research (where tens of millions of dollars of investor money is concerned) is useless.

If they want to make a difference, keep giving overrated non-games like Gone Home perfect scores. Draw attention to the projects that will actually grow the industry. The other stuff, the stuff they don't like? Yeah, that's not going anywhere. And it shouldn't have to. Because we live in a free society where people can sorta do whatever the fuck they want with regard to artistic expression. Don't like it? Fine. Don't buy it. But the constant harping, while entirely valid, is making these outlets BORING. They're like christian protesters outside an abortion clinic, running the exact same argument into the ground again and again, to literally no effect.

I guess I just think we're well beyond the saturation point with respect to this topic. Minds that can be changed have been changed. What can be altered through sheer bull-horning has been altered. Time to roll up sleeves and do some heavy lifting or move on. If "move on" isn't on the menu for these writers, I'll be moving on from their websites - and this coming from someone who mostly agrees with what they're saying.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

The female is Sniper Wolf? Fine. I cast my vote for one of the guys to be in Snake's sneaking thong.

Make it happen, Crytek.